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Revell "Golden Hind" dimensions

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  • Member since
    December 2006
Revell "Golden Hind" dimensions
Posted by woodburner on Monday, June 16, 2008 5:04 PM
Does anyone have the scale dimensions for the Revell "Golden Hind?"

I'm interested in keel (straight part only), beam and depth of hold (from the top of the keel to the beams supporting lowest deck). An overall hull length, and length between perpendiculars would also be helpful, but the first three are the most important.

Revell's model is based on Rolf Hoeckel's plans for a "small English galleon" and the dimensions will be found there, too.

Thanks, this will be very helpful for a project.

Jim
  • Member since
    February 2007
  • From: S.E. Michigan
Posted by 2/20 Bluemax on Monday, June 16, 2008 9:35 PM

Woodburner, Seaways SHIPS IN SCALE is running a series of articles on the Golden Hind. Part Two, the May/June 2008 issue, has drawings which indicate the length of the straight part of the keel is approx 56 feet. Max beam is 22 feet according to the plans. No depth of hold was listed but a midship section dwg shows what may be the depth of hold which is shown to be 10 feet 5 inches. Length between perpendiculars appears to be 79 feet. If you can get this issue and part one the Mar/April issue (and subsequent issues) you will probably find a lot of good info to determine correct scale and build a historicly accurate model. Good luck!

Jim 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, June 16, 2008 10:32 PM

I've got a Revell Golden Hind on my workbench.  (Let's not talk about how long it's been there.)  I'll try to get out there and take the necessary measurements tomorrow.

I've read the two articles in Ships in Scale.  Though I haven't had a chance to compare the Revell kit directly with the magazine, it looks to me as though there aren't any major points of disagreement.

The Revell kit does indeed match Mr. Hoeckel's plans.  I continue to wonder, though, whether they were actually original with him.  There seems to have been a sort of standardized Golden Hind interpretation that turned up in the works of several authors and draftsmen in the late forties and early fifties.  Whether they copied from each other, or from some other, earlier draftsman's work, I haven't figured out. 

At any rate, I continue to regard the Revell kit as one of the very best plastic sailing ship kits ever.  Would that the company would reissue it!

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:06 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the Ships in Scale articles, 2/20 Bluemax. I've read old issues but havent read any lately, so this is very welcome news. Thanks also for reporting the dimensions, and your depth of hold figure sounds very typical of the era. I'll order the articles tomorrow, thanks again!

jtilley, thanks for the comments and offer to take measurements of the Revell model. I'm very interested in the dimensions Hockel used. Your model may take its time, but the good things usually do. Given your work, it will no doubt be excellent in every respect.

The origins of the plans are not known to me beyond his work; and I'm not familiar with the two English gentleman you have mentioned working on similar ships at the same time. Since I've been looking at Golden Hind, I have seen a few early reconstructions, such as one by by Gregory Robinson, probably drawn in the 1930s. However Hockel's plans seem substantially different.

I got a copy of Harry Kelsey's book in the mail last week and have been going through it since. His sources for factual data regarding the vessel are nearly all primary, which is indespensible - and thanks for recommending it. Mr Kelsey also lives nearby and I spoke with him by telephone last week before the book arrived. He is a great gentleman and we spoke for a while. I'm looking forward to following up after a thorough reading.

Thanks again, Jim
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:02 AM

I don't think that the Ships in Scale plans match the Revell model. My recollection is that the Revell model was based on a replica from the 1950's. Somewhere here, I have (or had) the book on her construction and first Atlantic crossing. I'll put up details when (or if) I locate it. The vessel was on exhibit in the US for many years and was used in the movie "Swashbuckler". (if you are a James Earl Jones or Robert Shaw fan, this flick is a "must see")

The Ships in Scale plans were made by Raymond Aker, and are probably the most accurate representation of a 16th century english vessel available. Mr. Aker died a few years ago with much of his material going to the San Francisco Maritime Museum. Edward Von der Porten, the co-author with Mr. Aker of "Discovering Francis Drake's California Harbor",  has been filtering through Mr. Aker's materials and making them available for publication. They were both members of a non-profit group formed in 1949, The Drake Navigator's Guild, which researched Drake on the California coast.

Aker also reconstructed plans for other important Spanish vessels, Viscaino's San Diego, which explored the California coast in 1602 and the San Carlos, first European vessel into San Francisco Bay in 1775. Models built from these plans are on display at the Monterey Maritime and History Museum (San Diego) and the Santa Cruz Museum of Art and History (San Carlos).

A model of the Golden Hind made from Mr. Aker's plans is included in Mr. Von der Porten's traveling exhibit on the Manila galleons.

There was another set of Golden Hinde plans by Arthur Tucker and John Bowen, published by model Shipwright back in 1973 which reflect the layout of the Revell kit, but appear to me to be "beamier" than the kit. 

 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:05 AM

The Revell kit and Mr. Aker's plans, as published in Ships in Scale, certainly don't match.  I haven't held them side-by-side, but it looks to me like both are consistent with the known information (which isn't saying much).  I want to make a direct comparison, but it looks to me like both are legitimate, defensible reconstructions of a vessel about which, unfortunately, next to nothing is known for certain.

The Revell kit is an extremely close match for the Hoeckel drawings, which, I believe, were published in the late 1940s.  (I've got a copy of Hoeckel's book, in which they appear, somewhere; I'll try to remember to check the exact date.)  The resemblance between the Revell kit and the Hoeckel drawings is, in fact, far too precise to be coincidental.  As I've mentioned a couple of times before, I'm not completely convinced that Hoeckel's drawings are completely original.  He may conceivably have been working from some other, earlier draftsman's reconstruction.  I have, however, no firm reason to think that. 

Quite a few people published reconstructed drawings of the the Golden Hind in the forties, fifties, and sixties, most of those drawings being extremely similar.  The Hoeckel ones seem to be the oldest of those I've seen.  I'd be uncomfortable jumping from that observation to the assertion that the others are all based on Hoeckel, but that may well be the case.

Several replicas of the Golden Hind have been built over the years, and I frankly have never made any effort to sort them all out.  (Ditto for the various Santa Maria replicas.)  It's certainly possible that at least one of them was based on the Hoeckel drawings.  (The other night my wife and I were watching the DVD version of "Shogun" [1980], in which one of the Golden Hind replicas played the parts of both our hero's Dutch ship, the Erasmus, and the Portuguese "Black Ship."  That replica most definitely was not based on the same drawings as the Revell kit.)  And I guess it's possible that the Revell designers looked at such a replica.  But there's a firm, more-or-less direct Revell-Hoeckel connection somewhere.

It sure would be nice if the manufacturers - in both the plastic and wood kit genres - would tell us what their sources are.  Some of them (Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika come time mind) do.  One suspects that some, at least, of the other manufacturers are reluctant to disclose how they did their research for the simple reason that they didn't do any.  But somebody at Revell, back in its Goode Olde Dayes, knew how to do such things. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:44 PM
Alan, thanks for the information on the Ships in Scale plans. I've ordered the two issues and look forward to their arrival. An internet search found one of Raymond Aker's drawings of the ship, here:

http://www.indrakeswake.co.uk/Life/ghandtello.htm

If this is the vessel the plans represent, its a very nice job. I'm looking forward to reading more about it when the magazines arrive. I knew about the Clamper / Plate of Brass connection, but didnt know he was one of the men to blow the whistle.

The replica now at London was built in 1973 (I think) and I remember seeing it when it was in San Francisco. Its builders definitely get credit for originality trying to recreate an earlier look to the ship. I'm not aware of any other replicas, but there is a converted steel boat in Britain that's been dressed up and called a replica.

jtilley, it does seem that Revell based its model on Hockel's plans, and they did a great job of it. Maybe the marketing of plastic models at the time precluded the source data, but at least we have the trail to follow. I'm very interested in what the ship scales out to, and thanks again for looking into it.

Jim
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:28 AM

I measured the Revell kit this evening.  The keel (including the little piece of it that's molded integrally with the rudder) is 7 5/16" long; on 1/96 scale that's the equivalent of 58' 6".  The maximum beam (including the wales, but not the channels) is 2 9/16", or 20' 6" on the scale.

I measured the the overall length of the hull, but then my senile brain forgot to write it down; I'll check it again tomorrow.  I couldn't measure the depth of hold, because I've already fastened the maindeck down.

I've spent some time perusing the two articles in Ships in Scale.  With all due respect to the late Mr. Aker, I have to say I have some big reservations about them.  Most of those reservations probably are related to the fact that Mr. Aker didn't write the articles himself; they're based, apparently, on the notes he left behind. 

My big complaint with the articles as they stand (I imagine they'd look a good deal different if Mr. Aker had lived to complete them himself) is that they don't clarify how much of the material in them is based on hard evidence and how much is inference.  We are told, for instance, that the ship "had no gallery at the stern."  Period.  Is that emphatic assertion based on some contemporary document ("I look'd for ye sterne Gallerie, and lo, it was Not theyr"), or did Mr. Aker simply not find any evidence that she did have one?  I rather suspect the latter - but the text doesn't tell us.

A bit later in the first article we're told, again quite emphatically, that "she had 22 gunports for 18 guns, 12 of cast iron and 6 of bronze....Five guns were on each broadside on the gun deck, and two were in the stern, pointing aft....Two lighter bronze guns were in the forecastle and four in the aftercastle."  Unless Mr. Aker found some remarkably detailed document that eluded Professor Kelsey (which I doubt), most of that is guesswork.  And Mr. Aker's own, very well-rendered perspective sketch of the ship clearly shows six broadside guns per side.

The whole text is written like that.  It's full of statements phrased like established facts, many of which I think are nothing more or less than Mr. Aker's eminently qualified interpretations of the same meager evidence that other authorities have studied - and, in some cases, interpreted somewhat differently.  (The layout of the ship's internal spaces is, I'm pretty certain, based almost entirely on conjecture.)  The "bibliography" at the end of the second article contains precisely four books, all of them secondary sources written in the twentieth century:  William Baker's two accounts of the design of the Mayflower II and R.C. Anderson's two books on seventeenth-century rigging.  The implication is that Mr. Aker made a thorough study of contemporary sources, but the articles don't give us a hint as to what those sources were.

In its general shape, size, and rig the Aker reconstruction resembles the Hoeckel/Revell one in many ways.  The basic hull lines and proportions of both clearly were based on the old Matthew Baker Manuscript - as Mr. Aker acknowledges.  There are, however, two conspicuous differences.  In addition to omitting the aformentioned stern gallery (the Hoeckel/Revell version has one), Mr. Aker gave the ship an additional deck.  His main battery sits on a "gundeck" one level below the maindeck. 

I find either configuration believable.  That extra deck would have helped accommodate the "about sixty men and boys" who, according to the articles, made up the ship's crew.  I'm not convinced that figure is right, though.  Professor Kelsey found contemporary documents that gave figures from ranging from 140 to 164  people for the entire expedition, which consisted of four ships.  The Golden Hind presumably would have had the biggest crew of the four, but sixty may be a bit on the high side.

None of the foregoing is intended to suggest that any feature of Mr. Aker's reconstruction is wrong.  It's a real shame that he didn't have time to put his research into publishable form himself.  But as they stand, those articles don't make me feel inclined to junk the Revell kit.  Anybody who'd followed my rants about the Revell Beagle and the Heller Soleil Royal knows that I'm not normally in the habit of defending plastic kit manufacturers, but it's only fair to acknowledge when they do something right.  I think what we're looking at here are two legitimate interpretations of the same, extremely meager contemporary evidence.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:23 AM

Apropos of very little other than the fact that I've spent the last five decades tramping the lands of Drake in our north Bay Area, there's a good feeling among us locals about old Francis that it's all a little part fact and a little part fiction. Wait, thats not a whole, there must be more! In other words, the mists of time and uncertainty are a part of the story.

That kit came a cropper when my little sister slammed the door and it nose dived off the shelf. I did like the figure with the helmet, tho.

  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Friday, June 20, 2008 12:08 AM
jtilley, thanks for taking the time to measure your model for me, I appreciate that very much indeed. No worries about the depth of hold, its good to know she's reached that stage of her build where the deck is in place.

The length and beam sound right on target for a small, fast vessel. And with a single deck there would be plenty of room in the hold. Burningham and de Winter did feel that single deck vessels of a smaller class were typical of their Dutch focus, leading to the Duyfken replica, and lts possible that a similar philosophy was sometimes carried in England a decade or two earlier.

Thanks also for reviewing the SiS article. I'm still waiting for mine. It sounds typical of those articles, with historical elements reviewed quickly before proceeding to the craftsmanship of the build. So we will have to wait a while before someone writes about visual evidence of stern galleries in contemporary iconography as used in constructing the hypothesis . . . but at least your 16th century English is superb.

The reference to William Baker's work on Mayflower II is really interesting - and might explain why the Akins vessel looks a cross between Mayflower II and the Fish Drawing.

Thanks again for checking the measurements, and good tides for your build.

Jim
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