1/32 Lindberg PT-109 color scheme

Hey ....

If you are doing the 109, she was either in overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green.  She had a Copperoyd bottom with no boot stripe (waterline) ...

I would say she was in all probability, overall Navy Green.

White Ensign Models' COLOURCOATS line of matched paints has all of the Greens that were used on PTs in WW2.  Their Norfolk 65-A anti-fouling red paint is an excellent match for the Copperoyd bottom paint.

Garth

Are you looking for a video on PT Boats.  Traditions Military Videos has one called PT Boats in World War II.  There is come color footage showing camo 80' boats at Bayonne, NJ. 

glasparnut,

The lighter deck color seen on PT 61 in those great color shots is quite noticable, but I believe it was caused by the constant foot traffic of the crew as they moved about the boat -- in short, the deck areas would have been heavily "scuffed," which accounted for the deck's lighter color.  In the photo of the 61 crew on the foredeck, you can see the contrast between the darker color of the wet, just-mopped deck in front of the sailor with the mop and the lighter, dry, scuffed deck behind him.

Most South Pacific PT crewmen wore USMC-type field boots, or "boondockers," which the bare-chested, mallet-holding Chief torpedoman on PT 61 can be seen wearing in one of the photos.  

If you're willing to hold off a bit, Osprey will be releasing New Vanguard #148 US Patrol Torpedo Boats in Sept.  I saw it on the future releases page and thought of you.

If you look at PT-103 and PT-107 in Frank Johnson's book you will see good views of how the boats were painted.  Both are 80' Elcos and these were taken at the time they were transferring base to Rendova just prior to the 109 sinking.  They are one color overall.  The decks are heavily weathered as seeing on the 107 photo.  I think this gives the best sense of what the 109 probably looked like. 

It is known that when the 109 was originally painted it was a two tone gray scheme.  Basically the upper surfaces including deck were dark gray and the hull was a lighter gray.  Dr. Ross has published this information and if you search you can find it on this site so I wont repeat.  When shipped out to Panama the dark color on the upper surfaces was extended down the hull making them one color.  In the pacific they were then painted green.  From what I can tell painting green occurred over time I'm sure based on many factors.  These photos were taken at different times.  It could be that they were in the process of painting the boats.  We'll just never know because there's nobody to tell us.  Again I refer back to the 107 photo as a good reference.

The 61 boat was gray.  If you look at more photos of her deck it looks like gray.  Add water and it changes the look as you point out.  The blue you see could just be a reflection of the sky as you can see the skin tones of the sailors in the wet deck as well.  The sun was very harsh on these boats and the sun can change the look of these color photographs.  Also these old color photos "shift" over time so they are not perfect.

My money is on overall dark green with a hint of Tropical Green with a heavily weathered and faded deck.

Good luck!

Dave

 

Thanks for posting those GREAT color pics, Dave, however, I'm afraid the question remains unanswered.  Tracy stated in an above post that the boat was all the same color above the waterline, and sure enough, the first pic you posted shows the crew posing on a PAINTED deck, which appears to be a greyish blue (not green) color.  But in the next photo, the sailor is standing on a deck that appears to be a light tan color, just like....the UNPAINTED plywood color shown on the boxtop of my Lindberg model!!!
 I suppose it is possible that early on, the 109 may have had natural plywood and in later photos it may have gotten a coat of paint....?  like I said before, some scenes of PT-109 (the movie)
show a wood color deck, and other scenes shoe a painted deck- maybe BOTH ways could be considered correct?   maybe this mystery will never be solved..... Thanks again for everyones input!
                                

NUT 

I have that book as well.  The drawing you're referring to is pretty good with only some minor errors (mast for one).  On the jacket is a photo of PT-109 under way and you can clearly see that there is no mast.  Actually I think the color in that drawing is pretty darn close.  One thing I thought was interesting from the photos I posted was that the spray shield wrapped around the aft turret is on the inside of the depression rails rather than on the outside as you would normally see.  That's very unusual and I'm not sure if it is temporary or intentional.  Details details....

I found this book for something like $8 at Barnes & Nobel.  If you hunt around you can probably find a copy for a reasonable price.

Dave 

"Collision with History", Ballard's book on his search for the wreckage, includes a 2 page cutaway. If you can find or borrow a copy, it might be handy.  I don't have my scanner set up yet with the new computer or I'd scan it for you.

By the way, the deck should be painted the same color as the rest of the boat.  Everything should be painted one color except for the bottom.  WEM Norfolk 65A Antifouling Red is an excellent choice for paint the hull bottom.  A detail which is clear from the available photos of PT-109 is that she had no mast.  Somewhere even before Kennedy took command this boat lost her mast for some reason. 

Somewhere on this site is some history about PT-109.  This is worth a look as well.

http://www.pt103.com/

Good luck!

Dave

Greetings,

Boy, this is right up my alley.  I've been working on this issue for many years.  Over at the PT Boats Inc. message board we believe that we have a partial color photo of PT-109.  If it is true and there's some pretty good evidence to support it the boat was painted with a field prepared mix called Tropical Green.  Don't mistake this for what WEM (White Ensign Models) is selling.  My personal belief is that if you take some of the WEM MTB Green and mix in some of their Tropical Green you can achieve this color.  I'm still working on that project right now. 

The boat tied up to the starboard side of PT-61 is said to be PT-109 while commanded by JFK.  This same green appears on the depth charges on the boat tied up to the port side of PT-61.  It's not definitive but this gives you a good idea of how the 109 probably looked.  Note that the bronze color on the torpedo tube is the warhead and not the tube cover. 

I've added some photos of my almost complete PT-109 in 1/72 based on the Revell kit. 

Let me know if you have any questions.

Dave

White Ensign produces a paint color entitled MTB Green that was formulated to match the green that boats in that area and time of PT-109 were painted in. The whole boat was painted that color above the waterline, so it's an easy scheme to replicate. I'm painting a Revell PT boat in that color as we speak.

Another site you might want to check is PT Boat World .

thanks for the replies and links. I have learned, after searching this FSM forum, that there has been MANY inquiries and posts on this same subject,  Popular opinion seems to believe the hull was a dark Forest Green, with red oxide antifouling bottom paint and a black waterline stripe.  Still unsure if the top deck should be the same green, or a  "plywood Brown" color  like the box illustration shows. Even watched the movie, "PT-109" this AM and the top deck seemed to change colors during the movie.....
   any suggestions on the deck color?   Thanks!
                                        NUT 

thanks for the replies and links. I have learned, after searching this FSM forum, that there has been MANY inquiries and posts on this same subject,  Popular opinion seems to believe the hull was a dark Forest Green, with red oxide antifouling bottom paint and a black waterline stripe.  Still unsure if the top deck should be the same green, or a  "plywood Brown" color  like the box illustration shows. Even watched the movie, "PT-109" this AM and the top deck seemed to change colors during the movie.....
   any suggestions on the deck color?   Thanks!
                                        NUT 

  I was talking with one of the owners of "The Ship Chandler", in Mt. Prospect, Il. about modeling a PT boat. His suggestion was to pick a specific boat, and model it, as there were many different "after market" modifications made to each boat.  The 109 was an 80' Elco, of a series of boats, 103-196. The next series, 372-383. Later series, 486-563, 565-622. The Lindberg kit can be used for any of these numbers, but there will be differences in deck hardware/armament. You would have to choose one of the boats equipped as the kit provides, or buy aftermarket parts for the other boats. The site that was recommended is an excellent source of PT information.

This site has a lot of good info on PT boats:   http://www.ptboats.org/