New Apollo for 21st Century

sb36 wrote:

Chuck Fan wrote: This new CEV thing is like Christopher Columbus, after having discovered America 20 years ago, saying "I bet we can discover America again if we use replicas of the same three ships we used last time".    The age of Apollo style CEV is over.   We don't have the will to go forward, and like to pretend we didn't back out by doing the same thing over and over. The funny thing is they did sail back to America 20 years later in almost the same type of ships, in fact Gallions became the main component of the tresure fleets of Spain and Portugal, it's the type of ship that Magellian used, and De Soto, Deleon, and Cortez, and lets see oh yeah John Cabot, and Henry Hudson, most of the "new world" was first charted by gallions, a venerable, and reliable ship, maybe we need to lern a lession about human exploration from these ships. Though there were many variations, they were essentially the same design. Apollo on steroids? You bet.

Galleons, are not kogges, this is true; however they were the precurseors to the galleons. The Cev is not Apollo, but it will be similar in design. As for Mr. Columbus, well, does it matter what he thought he discovered?

Chuck Fan Said: "This new CEV thing is like Christopher Columbus, after having discovered America 20 years ago, saying "I bet we can discover America again if we use replicas of the same three ships we used last time".    The age of Apollo style CEV is over.   We don't have the will to go forward, and like to pretend we didn't back out by doing the same thing over and over."

"What do you mean 'we' paleface?"

We [American/Humanity inclusive in this case] made 6 successful landings on the lunar surface, brought back around 300+ pounds of rock samples and land mapped a few corners of the closest celestial body we have...

"Discover again?"  Gee whiz, Chuck, hate space travel lately?

Bill Nye [yes, The Science Guy] mentioned back a few years when this plan came out that "we'd learned all there was to know about the moon- so there's no reason to go back".

Okay- with that logic, next time you go swimming in the Pacific or Atlantic, there's never a reason to go SCUBA diving or boating, because we've already learned all we need to know about the oceans.

Bill I can excuse because as a scientist he only sees beyond the edge of his own microscope- in the extreme fringe of scientific politics, most scientists will rebuff another's work especially if it means funding for one can be ripped out of competing hands and given to the one squeaking loud enough...  Bill's jealous because he has nothing to contribute to manned spaceflight and is thusly ignored outside of children's shows.

"There's never a reason to discover America again"- so why did travellers ever make the journey; let alone keep coming back?  If pirates, storms, scurvy or god knows what else didn't get you, the rewards to be had [and to present to the royals providing teh money for the trip] weren't enough to make it "worthwhile"...

There's something to be said for Granduer.  There's something to be said for being there.  There's something to be said for proving you can do it again and make it look everyday.

In today's financial and socio-economic world, sure, the goal doesn't seem terribly pragmatic- but it's no more or less pragmatic than in the 1960s/70s.  The comparable price to put man on the moon originally would be no different by today's  standard.

Apollo is in the past- I've got no problem accepting that.  [Well- okay- yes I do, but this is an older man talking...] 

Will the new CEV look a lot like Apollo?  Sure.  It's a proven technology- heaven forbid we use something that actually has proven itself.

Have we used wooden canoes to travel over water?  Sure.  It too, is a proven technology- but it doesn't fit the needs of today- especially if we were headed out over the ocean and expect to stay there for a while- it's the same thing with the new CEV.

If tomorrow NASA were to press forward to become a governing "policing" arm and that from here on out all manned spaceflight- including the lunar landing- was to be done in the private sector, there'd be some floundering, but I doubt it would be too long before [Virgin Aerospace anyone?] someone would pick up the haleberd and begin the march into space and most definitely the moon.

There's pleanty of will to move forward on this- 2 aerospace companies are ponying up their own money to develop prototype mock-ups for governmental scrutiny; in today's money conscious business world, do you think they are fools for 'moving ahead'?  I'll be certain to tell the CEOs of the companies your interpretation, I'm sure they'll drop everything and get back to making airplanes- which, why should they do even that- the concept of the 'wing' is 'old technology'- since it's "the same old thing they used last time" obviously it's not innovative enough to keep on using, now is it...

H3 and other untapped elements and manufacturing possibilities on the lunar surface won't be discovered if we never go back with the intent on staying.  Similar things were said for The New World around the time of The Renesance.  It was said again when the 13 colonies were established- it'll be remembered by people who make their lives somewhere in Strongville on the Sea of Storms.

Revitalized technology, merged with the tried and true will have hard-hat workers on the lunar surface some time just before my time on this earth is over. 

Seeing adults accomplishing the impossible back in 1969 was exhillerating.

Seeing 'children' making the impossible commonplace will be a testiment.

I believe in The US.  I believe in the youth of today.

Do you?

72cuda wrote:

The Apollo/Saturn launch system is of the old throw away technology, you have a launch vehicle that's 365 ft tall and only 13 ft of that comes back, and the Space Shuttle is of the mid-throw away technology the main vehicle and boosters can be reused but the External Tank is wasted

Actually most of the vehicle must be dismantle and replaced after each mission, spending a lot of working time and cost as much as Apollo mission. So they find out that it is cheaper to let it burn in the atmosphere.

I'm pretty sure the new CEV will be reliable and very effective and can't wait to see it "fly".

I don't care that the CEV resembles Apollo. JUST GO! And furthermore, STAY! Robert Heinlein had it right in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress: if you are at the top of the gravity well, you are Immune. If for no other reason than security, we'll be back up there.

But I have a sneaking hunch that somebody like Burt Rutan is going to really lead the way in the future. The next Bill Gates will be space or nano-oriented ( or a combo of both ).

My regret is that I will never live out my childhood dream to be a colonist on Mars.

grandadjohn wrote:

... ISS has assembly area for future spacecraft

The ISS was never intended to be used as an assembly site.  It is meant to be laboratories.  To make experiences that will help go further in space exploration but I doubt that its lifespan is long enough to see the outer planet exploration era.