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Polishing Clear Parts

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  • Member since
    January 2016
Polishing Clear Parts
Posted by Liquid Magma on Saturday, February 13, 2016 4:24 PM

I have been trying to polish some canopies on my models with frustrating results. So, for practice I grabbed a piece of clear styrene sheet and spent some time carefully running through all the grits and compounds and ended up with the same results. In the end I still have scratches all over the place from all the different grits of sand paper.

I started with 600 and progressed through 1000, 2400, 3200, 4000, 6000, 8000 and the Novus 3, 2 & 1 compounds. For each, I changed direction of the snading until I got to the polishing compounds where I did circular motions. I started the 600 girt at 45 deg and did all the others at 0 or 90 and I can clearly see scratches from all the different grits back to the 600grit. I tried to carefully ensure I wet sanded and frequently let the part dry to inspect it and ensure I had worked out the previous grit, but as I progressed all those scratches just kept showing up. I even backed up and tried hitting grits again, but to no avail. I used lense cloth for the compounds and the buffing clears things up a bit, but it seems the sanding is really my issue.

After hours of work I still have a scratched piece of plastic with a shiny finish. Dipping in Future hides most of the scratches, but I see many other modelers skip the Future and get beautiful results from polishing. Any suggestions on my technique or process would be helpful.

Thanks!

  • Member since
    July 2013
  • From: Chicago area
Posted by modelmaker66 on Thursday, February 18, 2016 4:33 PM

i sometimes use the tamiya 3 stage tubes of scratch removal compound and a soft cloth. Look it up in the web. Works good but takes a while to do.

  • Member since
    August 2013
Posted by Jay Jay on Friday, February 19, 2016 8:48 AM

Look up Paul Budzik on you tube " masking canopies"  he has a blurb in there about polishing clear parts. he doesn't use Future but polishes with a  rag buffer and white diamond compound. be prepared to spend some time with Paul, Everytime I watch a video of his I end up watching 20.  This guy is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 

 I'm finally retired. Now time I got, money I don't.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Friday, February 19, 2016 9:16 AM

Some folks use toothpaste to polish canopies.  I have tried it- it does work- but sometimes a finer abrasive is needed.

Incidently, canopies do not need to be crystal clear, depending on the finish  of the model.  I sometimes feel it may be inappropriate to have a heavily weathered aircraft with a pristine canopy.  Yeah, it could happen, but still looks funny.

And, it depends on the era of a plane.  Modern canopies use pretty high tech materials and processes.  But the canopies of WW2 aircraft, for instance, dulled or frosted easily from abrasions and UV exposure.  Decent UV-resistant canopies didn't come along until several years after the war.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: MN
Posted by Nathan T on Friday, February 19, 2016 11:43 AM

Definately do NOT start out with 600 grit. Way too rough for little plastic canopies. Start with 1000, see what happens. Also, some plastic just won't polish out. What kit are you trying this on, and have you tried clear parts from another kit? The Novus system should work well.

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • From: providence ,r.i.
Posted by templar1099 on Friday, February 19, 2016 1:50 PM

Just had this problem, along with a "pit" on the glass. Novus and repeated dips in Future worked well enough.Anything worth doing is time consuming. I am also in total agreement with Don, and incorporate some defect as part of the vehicle.

"le plaisir delicieux et toujours nouveau d'une occupation inutile"

  • Member since
    February 2014
  • From: N. MS
Posted by CN Spots on Friday, February 19, 2016 4:02 PM

I agree with Nathan about 600 being too coarse.  If it does not have any scratches out of the box, I've just used compound.  Use quality paper too.  One stray grit on cheap sandpaper will ruin your day.

  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by Cobra 427 on Friday, February 19, 2016 6:15 PM

Don Stauffer

 

And, it depends on the era of a plane.  Modern canopies use pretty high tech materials and processes.  But the canopies of WW2 aircraft, for instance, dulled or frosted easily from abrasions and UV exposure.  Decent UV-resistant canopies didn't come along until several years after the war.

 

 

That's because they were clear vacuum formed acrylic canopies - these are subject to being easily scratched.

 

Cheap wetsanding paper doesn't exist! No one makes such a highly technically advanced, and hard to produce product with cheap paper. It's the fact that you need to understand what you're working with, and how to use it correctly. Wetsanding paper is intended to be soaked overnight so that the paper can soften itself up before being used, but the grit is where you need to be sure to use in the proper size, or grade for the project that you're using it with. Wet sanding paper is intended to be used with automotive finishes - not regular use with soft plastics. 

 

Here's what I do to get a beautiful finish on clear parts. DO NOT USE ANYTHING ABRASIVE - EVER!!!  I use Plastix from Meguiars' brand of finish polishes. This is MADE for acrylic, and clear soft plastic. Use a CLEAN, NEW terry cloth towel, or microfiber towel and rub softly. Use a soft rubbing motion, but not in swirls, or hard turns - use a cotton swab if you need to get into tight areas, but rub VERY SOFTLY! Trust me - I do this all the time with clear plastics, and this is intended only for soft plastic. I did the same thing with all the grits only to STILL have rough sanding marks in the surface even after going over the surface several times to make it smooth, but to no avail!

If you have uneveness to remove - use 3500 grit sandpaper, and nothing any lower than that.You can buy the entire set from www.stew-mac.com This is intended for musical instruments - I make them myself from the raw wood parts to the finished product in the case, and everything in between. I've been doing this for over 27 years now. I buy all my finishing products locally whenever I can, but for everything that I can't get just anywhere I buy from them. These grits work perfectly for the job at hand, and if used with the correct grit size you can do some amazing work. However these sanding pads are not intended to be used with water for a prolonged period of time as the glue will let go from it! You can't use solvent based products with it at all for the same reason as the glue will let go, and the grit attached to the cloth which is glued to the foam pad will also come off if you use with even mineral spirits. Practice before using these pads on an expensive model.

 

~ Cobra Chris

Maybe a picture of a squirrel playing a harmonica will make you feel better?

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, February 20, 2016 9:09 AM

Cobra 427

 

 

 

Here's what I do to get a beautiful finish on clear parts. DO NOT USE ANYTHING ABRASIVE - EVER!!!  ~ Cobra Chris

 

Isn't a non-abrasive polish kind of an oxymoron :-)

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    January 2016
Posted by Liquid Magma on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:17 AM

Thanks all for feedback.

Jay, I have seen Paul Budzik's videos, actually inspired me to try harder to get a clean finish. Unfortunately I don't have a polishing wheel yet, but have considered a bench grinder anyway so maybe I'll try it soon. I'm a little curious what he used to buff the inside. Looks similar to some wool wheels for rototools, but he doesn't mention it in his video. Perhaps I need to spend a little more time practicing.

Don, the canopy is for a NASA T-38A (using a 1/48 Sword kit). NASA keeps their planes in nice shape, so I would really like to get the scratches out. I recently had a 1/48 Zero kit from ARII...perhaps the worst canopy I have ever seen, didn't bother trying to get that one all cleaned up.

Nathan/CN Spots, I think originally I started with 1000grit, but some damage from trying the buffing wheel on my Dremel needed to be sanded out, which drove me to using the 600, or perhaps I could have taken a few weeks to get the bumps out. Interestingly I am pretty sure some of the scratches came from the 1000 or even 2000 grit paper. Perhaps I need to soak the sheets longer and ensure I'm using clean sections of the mesh.

Anyone have experience with when to use linear strokes vs. circular? At least when I was doing linear it was easier to see remaining scratches at the course grits, but apparently I still missed some.

Thanks again,

Eric

  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by Cobra 427 on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 1:10 PM

Don Stauffer

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't a non-abrasive polish kind of an oxymoron :-)

 

 

Absolutely NOT!! I would never tell you something that wasn't true. What it means to abraid something is to scratch it - polishes don't scratch the surface, but rather they polish by chemical reaction to the surface on which they are applied.  Some types of polish have a grading system to them in which they're used to step the surface application. This means that they have either other grades before them or both before, and after to soften the appearance of larger scratches into smaller ones. These are usually meant for metals, or wooden surfaces. Paint polishes work the surface into a softer appearance by chemical reaction - not by scratching the surface which only removes material which you don't want to do when applying a substrate meant to offer protection with some degree of durability. Some polishes have either a MILD abrasive, and oil, or simply an oil mixed with a synthetic chemical, or mineral spirits that is chemically compatible with the surface for which it is meant to be applied.

The stuff I suggested is for plastics - not paint, and there are polishes meant for paint, not plastic.  I just used some plastic polish on a 1/8th scale Pocher (pronounced POKER) Fiat that desperately needed some help working the surfaces into an acceptable shine. Trust me - I wouldn't lie to you, or tell you something that would destroy your project, or put your health, or safety in jeopardy. Why would I tell you something that you'd find questionable? I'm only trying to help - don't kill the messenger!

 

~ Cobra Chris

Maybe a picture of a squirrel playing a harmonica will make you feel better?

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2015
Posted by Bick on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 4:29 PM

Hey Guys - have you forgotten BonAmi (hasn't scratched yet Ads used to say) but to the original poster. Go to your local Walgreens or Rite Aid or ? and pick up a finger nail finishing board (can't remember the correct name). It's about 3/4" square in X section and 5 in long and has 7 different levels of abrasives on it - 2 on each of three sides and one side with just polisher or buffer ?. Don't use any of the first three (too coarse), use the last three or four and polish until all scratches are gone from the previous go. Then buff with the last one until clear or your happy with it. A dip in Future or Alclad AguaGloss and you'll have a crystal clear canopy sans scratches. I can post a pic of mine if it will help.

 

Edit = BTW the coarser sides work great for sanding seams.

  • Member since
    April 2015
Posted by Wolfman_63 on Friday, February 26, 2016 6:04 AM

I had a canopy that was scratched from being in a box without the plastic bagging. The surface was all messed up from rubbing against the other sprues and parts. I wet sanded the entire surface with 1500 grit sand paper which left the surface hazy. I they used a dremel tool with a cotton buffing pad and used Meguire's #10 plastic polish. It is designed to polish automotive headlight lenses. The stuff works amazing. The canopy came out crystal clear and was as glossy as a future dipped canopy. I now use it to polish all the canopies to give them a high gloss finish.

Note you will need to wash the canopy with dawn dish soap to make sure the polish has no residue on the frame area you want to paint. (around rivots/details) The paint will not stick on the polish residue.

Here is a link to the polish: http://www.meguiars.com/en/professional/products/m1008-clear-plastic-polish/

 

Website:

David's Scale Models - https://www.davidsscalemodels.com

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by Cobra 427 on Friday, February 26, 2016 2:53 PM

 

Bick

Hey Guys - have you forgotten BonAmi (hasn't scratched yet Ads used to say) but to the original poster. Go to your local Walgreens or Rite Aid or ? and pick up a finger nail finishing board (can't remember the correct name). It's about 3/4" square in X section and 5 in long and has 7 different levels of abrasives on it - 2 on each of three sides and one side with just polisher or buffer ?

 

 

 

EMERY BOARD is what you're referring to. This has only two grits on each board. You have a coarse side for removing rough edges, and finer side for sanding out the coarse scratches. FLEXI-FILE is the one with four individual grits that are strictly for polishing. Each one removes scratches from the grit before it if you use it in the correct order.

 

 

 

Wolfman_63

I had a canopy that was scratched from being in a box without the plastic bagging. The surface was all messed up from rubbing against the other sprues and parts. I wet sanded the entire surface with 1500 grit sand paper which left the surface hazy. I they used a dremel tool with a cotton buffing pad and used Meguire's #10 plastic polish. It is designed to polish automotive headlight lenses. The stuff works amazing. The canopy came out crystal clear and was as glossy as a future dipped canopy. I now use it to polish all the canopies to give them a high gloss finish.

Note you will need to wash the canopy with dawn dish soap to make sure the polish has no residue on the frame area you want to paint. (around rivots/details) The paint will not stick on the polish residue.

Here is a link to the polish: http://www.meguiars.com/en/professional/products/m1008-clear-plastic-polish/

 

 

I used Meguiars for over twenty years, but now you can no longer get this in the creme bottle in my town - unless I special order it from a local supplier of Meguiars products. They only sell the detailing stuff at the automotive outlets, and the local paint jobbers charge an arm and a leg for a big bottle of it because the smaller bottles are ridicuoulsly priced! The only other option is to go online to get it. The only problem you'll have with it that it's oily, and it will need to be rubbed completely into the surface. This has no hard abrasives in it, but rather it breaks down the surface slowly as it rubs across the surface with soft, or MILD abrasives, and oil to remove scratches that can be seen by the naked eye.

The rest of the polishes are like Don (Stauffer) said - they do have some MILD abrasives in them, but these are only entry level polishes that are meant to remove scratches left from wet-sanding. As you go higher in the line of micro fine polishes the abrasives get smaller until they have none in the next polish = number 9. This is what many use to get that showcar shine without tell tale sanding, or buffing wheel marks left behind from a D.A. polisher. This has no abrasive action in it as it's meant strictly to break down the paint surface chemically to remove all the paint with micro scratches in it.

 

It's like this people: Wet-sanding is the process of removing uneveness, or imperfections in paint from being sprayed with a professional DeVilbiss HVLP gun, or knock-off copy of it made by another manufacturer. HVLP = High Volume - Low Pressure which was introduced by the DeVilbiss company in 1948 (if memory serves correctly). Any way, it was designed for the automotive industry so that paint could be properly applied to the surface of an automobile with more  durability, and ease as opposed to the dying wands that the early manufacturers used to paint their cars with. In 1923 Plasti-kote introduced what we now know as nitrocellulose lacquer which is made from tree gum spirits and cellulose fiber. Before then there was no such thing and was not mentioned in any literature although many so-called antique experts will claim otherwise as "Japanese lacquer" was supposedly made from the same stuff although it came before Plati-kotes' product. What they truly mean is ENAMEL which has been around about as long as porcelain which is made from the same stuff basically - ceramic sludge, or Koalin clay but rather fired differently. Lacquer on the other hand is not!

Spraying leaves uneven ripples called "orange peel" which used to be rubbed by hand with a cotton cloth, and special abrasive polishes to get the smoother look of a new car. When freshly spayed lacquer is duller, and polishing it gives it the look of a new piece of furniture finished in varnish. Wet-sanding was introduced in the late fifties to make the surface smoother with less time polishing, and in the early to mid sixties D.A. polishers were designed to be used with the new polishes that Meguiars' introduced over twenty years before. Now everyone and their damned brother, and sister have copied Meguiars' polishing system!

How this works is that with each sucessive grit of wet-sanding paper you remove more, and more scratches, but also you're removing more, and more paint! The Meguiars' brand is made so that you can do minimal wet-sanding to produce the same effect with a high gloss finish. Each grade of polish has mild abrasives made usually from walnut shells, or some kind of synthetic oil, and plastic particles to abraid the surface to remove those sanding scratches while leaving a somewhat dull, but shiner surface. The finer grades of polish only use soft clay, and oil to polish with although all the Meguiars brand polishes have the same basic formulation. Each grade of polish does the same thing without sanding. However these will rub a thin layer of paint off with them as this is what they are designed to do the more you rub to get to the next step so that you can get the desired amount of gloss required to achieve that showroom look. Wax was developed to help protect the paint from road dirt that is kicked up when you drive, and bugs as well as things flying through the air picked up by the wind. The wax also keeps water away so that it doesn't sit on top of the paint, and eat its' way into the surface dulling it even further.

Plastic polish works on the same principal as abrasive polishes for metal do. These work with ultra fine micro abrasives to break down scratches, but the grade of polish you use as opposed to the grit size of the scratches will determine what you'll need to use to properly remove them. Harder grit for bigger scratches, and light grit for smaller scratches is obvious, but what most people don't know is that light scratches in plastic can usually be removed with a mild plastic polish, or even a mild, or mid grade paint polish. Try it on scrap first as Meguiars' doesn't like some soft plastics, as this will mar it if the polish is too abrasive! No. 1 scratch remover, No.2 scratch remover, No. 3 Scratch remover, No. 4 scratch remover, No. 5 Scratch remover, No. 6 Scratch remover, No. 7 showcar glaze polish, No. 8 sealer polish, No. 9 swirl remover polish, No. 10 PLASTIC polish, No. 29 yellow wax - these are the most popular ones other than the maroon coloured bottles with 1, 2, 3 on them. These are made for MILD paint restoration. You can also buy clay bar paint restorer for soft plastics if you have deep scratches that you want to get rid of without buying a whole line of paint restoration products.

Experiment with these as I don't know what plastics most of the manufacturers use today, and not all polystyrene is equal! Some plastic may gum up, and other plastic may dissolve if you use something with a high solvent content. Meguiars' is pretty tame, and contains no harsh solvents, but the oil in it clumps up if you don't use it all within a year - especially if you use only half a bottle the air inside will eventually dry it out. Remember to shake your bottle no matter what it is, or who made it unless it's soda! Meguiars' has a tendency to settle, so shaking it for about five to ten minutes is HIGHLY recommended. Use a soft terry cloth towel - use a new one so that you don't leave scratches from one that has been through the washer dozens of times and will be rough and leave as many scratches as you're trying to remove! A new micro fiber cloth works well too. Sorry this post is so long - I hope that this will help a lot more with a better explanation.

 

~ Cobra Chris

Maybe a picture of a squirrel playing a harmonica will make you feel better?

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2015
Posted by Bick on Saturday, February 27, 2016 8:35 AM

Cobra 427

 

EMERY BOARD is what you're referring to. This has only two grits on each board. You have a coarse side for removing rough edges, and finer side for sanding out the coarse scratches. FLEXI-FILE is the one with four individual grits that are strictly for polishing. Each one removes scratches from the grit before it if you use it in the correct order.

 <big snip.

~ Cobra Chris

Hi Cobra Chris,

I really wasn't referring to the typical two sided emery board but rather a seven sided file/buffer/polisher. Here's a pic of what I was referring to:

 

Thanks for the details on polishing.

 

 

Edit here's a link to one at Walgreens:

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/studio-35-beauty-7-way-nail-buffer/ID=prod6163373-product

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2016
Posted by Liquid Magma on Thursday, March 24, 2016 7:20 PM

Quick update:

I reworked one of the canopies starting with 3M brand 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit wet/dry automotive papers (these seem more consistant and reliable than the varying grits between brands of hobby papers). I then skipped the MircoMark mesh at 3200 since it seemed more course than the 3M 2000 grit and went straight to 4000 and 6000 grit mesh. After some experimenting on a peice of clear styrene sheet, the 8000 grit mesh seemed to provide the same finish as Novis 3, so I transitioned to the Novis 3, 2, 1 and concluded with another Future dip. The result was significantly better than my previous attempt when I put them side-by-side. Still a few subtle scratches visible, but good enough for me to feel comfortable attaching to my model. 

I also purchased a 6" buffing wheel, some polishing wheels for the Dremel  (a little conserned the high speed of the Dremel, even though it is a variable speed model, will be too fast for the plastic) and some white diamond polishing compund to try on some other canopies. I also will be experimenting with the Tamiya compounds and I'll let you know how they work out!

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Thursday, March 24, 2016 7:37 PM

very interested in how your dremel buffing wheel goes liquid magma .

sorry just read wolfman's post , might have to order some.

 

  • Member since
    March 2013
Posted by patrick206 on Friday, March 25, 2016 1:35 PM

Bick -

I've used the pad in the photo and liked it quite well. Also, there is a beauty supply shop near me, I found a polishing pad they carry and it works just great. It's a four sided sponge, with two different grits on opposing sides. One side is about like a 1200 grit, the other feels like there is no abrasion factor at all. The smoothest side leaves a perfectly polished surface on the plastic, or paint. Good for wet sanding too.

Brand is ASP, item# is 154795. Company is Star Nail, Valencia, Ca. Title is Buff and Shine Block. E-mail : starnail.com

The foam block is soft enough to easily conform to a compound surface, such as a canopy, but firm enough to give a stable work surface for the polishing grit.

I use the more abrasive grit for leveling a canopy center seam, then a final polish with the finer side. Works great for me, highly recommended, if you can locate them. After final polish I either dip in Future, or use Novus.

Patrick 

  • Member since
    January 2016
Posted by Liquid Magma on Sunday, April 3, 2016 11:34 PM

I finally got some time today to try polishing using buffing wheels and some white polishing compound. I grabbed an old scrap 1:48 F-15 canopy added a few light scratches for reference and started with a 6" diameter cloth wheel on my Ryobi grinder. The unit operates at 3600 rpm, which seems a little fast, but it didn't seem to cause any problems with overheating the plastic and it polished up pretty well. I did get some residue that would show up on various areas, but I'm sure it was just polishing compound that kept getting deposited on areas that were not in close contact with the wheel. Important safety note, I did snag the canopy on the wheel once and almost lost it out of my hands, so it is important to not hold the part in such a way that an edge can be caught by the wheel.

Next I tried using both cotton and wool polishing wheels on my Dremel. I applied the same compound to these wheels and got good results. I'm not sure if the cotton wheel caused some pitting or if that was already present on the part before I started working it, but the wool made for a very nice finish, but both the part and my clothes were coated in a bit of wool flock. Little fibers flew everywhere, so I wouldn't recommend doing your polishing near your latest paint project, but the fibers are easy enough to wipe up.

Next step is to try the Tamiya polishing set I received recently. I'll let everyone know how that one goes when I get to try it. Maybe I'll even get scientific about it an do some side-by-side comparisons. Hopefully I can get some photos uploaded soon.

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