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enamel or acrylic?

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, August 20, 2017 6:37 PM

baltosale

Mr. Tilley - I do hope you're still postind.  Will you tell us where you do share your helpful discussion please?   Thans    Baltosale

 

Unfortunately, he just recently passed away. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2016
  • From: north Baltimore City, Maryland
Posted by baltosale on Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:47 PM

Mr. Tilley - I do hope you're still postind.  Will you tell us where you do share your helpful discussion please?   Thans    Baltosale

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: clinton twp, michigan
Posted by camo junkie on Friday, May 29, 2009 1:50 PM
Sign - Ditto [#ditto]
"An idea is only as good as the person who thought of it...and only as brilliant as the person who makes it!!"
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, May 29, 2009 1:02 PM
I am with Camo Junkie on Humbrols- bast dang paints out there for handbrushing, bar none. As long as you stir them thouroughly they can not be beat. Not to mention their price is still quite reasonable. But I don't limit myself to just one type or brand. I use both enamels and acrylics-and from multiple makers- each has their strengths and weaknesses. But for starting out handbrushing, I strongly recommend to stay away from Tamiya and Gunze acrylics.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, May 29, 2009 12:14 PM

Firecontrols - Many thanks for your kind comment.

For what little it's worth - the three models illustrated on the website I linked us to in the last post are made of quite a few materials.  The Bounty is based on the 1957 Revell plastic kit, with considerable modification (only about a dozen pieces of the original made it into the finished product.  In retrospect, I feel a little stupid for not having started from scratch.)  The hull above the waterline is the original styrene molding, brush-painted with Poly-S.  The underwater hull is plated with .001 copper sheets, painted with Poly-S.  The deck is basswood, treated with solven-based wood stain and highly diluted shellac.

The Phantom is based on a Model Shipways kit.  It has a cast resin hull (MS no longer sells it in that form, unfortunately).  For some reason the manufacturer did a nice job of representing the deck planks but gave the exterior of the hull a smooth surface.  I "planked" the hull above the waterline with styrene strips (held on with CA glue), and applied copper sheets to the bottom.  The resin deck and the styrene hull planks above the waterline are brush-painted with Poly-Scale.  I wanted a moderate sheen on the hull exterior, and decided to try something a little different to get it.  I let the paint dry for a good long time (several weeks), then applied a thin coat of Renaissance brand micro-crystalline wax.  I'm pretty happy with the results.

The Hancock is scratchbuilt.  The hull was carved from basswood; then the exterior of it was planked with styrene strips.  The entire hull was brush-painted with Poly-S.  The decks are planked with basswood, again treated with stain (the late lamented Floquil "Driftwood" color - which I wish was still available) and diluted white shellac.  (Some months later I got access to some nice holly, which is much better for planking on such small scales; I wish I'd used it for the decks instead of basswood.)

I generally agree, I guess, that wood is more forgiving (I like that word; it really fits the case) in brush-painting.  But I'd add a qualifier:  IF the wood is of reasonably fine grain.  Holly, boxwood, pearwood, and other very-fine-grained species are extremely easy to paint.  Basswood is marginal; the traditional cabinet-maker's woods, such as walnut and mahogany, take paint well, but the such fine-grained paint won't conceal the wood grain.  And balsa, unless the grain is filled with some sort of filler first, is just about hopeless. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: clinton twp, michigan
Posted by camo junkie on Friday, May 29, 2009 10:45 AM

morefire, i use nothing but humbrol paints if i can help it. while some argue acrylics i think im one of the minorities in this forum who use enamels/humbrol paints. i absolutely love them and think they cover great (when not thinned too much) and the colors/pigments are fantastic! just picked up another 10 colors yesturday!

i usually will take a piece of sprue and dip it into the can then pull some out. spread it on a plastic painter's (well, not sure what they're called but...u can get the idea), basically something to "hold the paint" from going everywhere. then take an eye dropper and apply 1 to 3 drops of thinner depending on the consistancy u want. i like it to just "cover" my figures, etc. no better paints out there in my opinion! good luck with your modeling! Make a Toast [#toast]

"An idea is only as good as the person who thought of it...and only as brilliant as the person who makes it!!"
  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: uk
Posted by morefirejules08 on Friday, May 29, 2009 8:34 AM

trust me an air brush is high on the wanted list! but for now i may have to stick with brushes althogh i may look at some rattle cans tomorrow, i'll be building aircraft and my first project is an airfix lancaster!

thanks for all the replies, they have given me plenty of food for thought! cheers

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by Firecontrols on Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:48 PM

Great work on the ship models. While I prefer airbrushing over hand brushing, I think a great deal of the result will be affected by the material you are painting.I build a few armor models, but mostly On3 and 1:20.3 railroad models.

Wood is much more forgiving with brush painting, IMO. When I paint wood models with a brush - which isn't too often - I thin the paint and apply as many coats as I think are appropriate for the level of fresh to washed out paint I'm looking for. If I'm using Styrene to replicate wood, then I typicall distress the plastic and use an airbrush. I've painted many models and I've never been able to come close to eliminating brush strokes on smooth plastic or metal (brass). I have had the best luck with Polly Scale paints right out of the bottle - as they seem to flow a bit before setting up, a process that eliminates most of the bristle marks. Unless you're going to apply a great deal of weathering, I think brushed on paints on a large replicated metal surface will always have a brushed on look. While real life prototypes often have brushed on paint, I don't think the look translates well to smaller scale models.

I know the original poster for this thread is concerned about the cost of an airbrush. However, I highly recommend saving a bit and getting an airbrush and compressor. You'll always need brushes for touch up and certain detail work, but I do about 95% of my painting on a model with an airbrush. If you go down to a .15 to .20 mm needle - and are able to reduce your pressure and paint flow - you can use the airbrush  like a fine paint brush. A little bit masking with tape or a 3X5 card prevents 99.5% of overspray.

Anyway, to each his own. You'll find the techniques that work best for you after you try a few things. Good luck.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:46 PM

what is used to think enamels and how many coats would i generally be looking at? what i want to do is paint the model then give it a gloss coat for the decals then a matt coat over the whole lot, does that sound right?

Can't tell ya squat about Humbrol, I've never used them (no hobby shops around here stock them), but enamels are enamels are enamels for the most part and any good enamel reducer/thinner will do for brush-cleaning..  As for thinning enamels, you don't... Not unless you're going to airbrush, or they become too thick to brush.. I didn't do any kind airbrushing ether for 40 years of modeling, not until about 6 months ago.. I did everything with brushes and rattle-cans, and got pretty damn good at 'em, if I do say so m'self.. I brush-painted with Testor's, Testor's Model Master, Practa 'Namel (way back in the day), Poly-S, and Tamiya.  Tamiya was useless for overall painting, BTW... 

 The number of coats you need to apply is going to be based on the color you're trying to cover up... One coat is the ideal number, but usually two is required... One thing you should consider is buying a rattle-can of Wal-Mart primer in order to give a lighter surface to cover dark plastics.. Most kits are molded in grey these days, so you don't need to prime those... White doen't need it either, but black, Olive Drab/Green, tan, blue, etc, will all benefit from a primer coat. You didn't mention what type of kits you're going to tackle, so these are just general guidelines..

Anyway, you don't need to paint the entire model in gloss to apply decals.. you can, for the most part, apply some clear gloss where the decals go, then shoot the whole thing with a rattle-can of Dullcoat or the like.. Or simply paint the thing with gloss paints, apply the decals, then shoot it with clear flat.   That brings up another point... If you do armor kits with only one color of camouflage, like the U.S. OD or Russian Dark Green, German Panzer Grey, etc, consider buying rattle-cans of the colors you need.  Also, you can mix brush-painting with spray cans for camouflage as well.. Spray the predominant color, then brush the camo.. I did a lot of that on German armor and German nightfighters.  A little bit of masking prowess makes it pretty easy to spray two-tone, even three-tone camouflage on aircraft too.. However, I digress...

Believe it or not, but I've had great success with paint markers for painting aircraft as well.. The dark gloss colors, like Black, Blue, and Dark Green cover in one coat and, when they're new, the paint flows nicely and leaves no real discernable tip marks if you follow the technique I use, which is to paint in ONE direction only and overlap the previous pass by 50%... I did a Monogram A-26 in gloss black marker some years ago and you had to LOOK for the marks to see them.  From 2 feet away, they didn't show at all...

G'luck and welcome back to the hobby...

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:22 PM

Well, I have some different opinions to offer.  I offer them not with the implication that any of what's already been said is wrong, but just in order to establish that there are different ways of looking at the subject.

My principal interest is ship models - both sailing vessels and twentieth-century warships.  I started building them in 1956, when the only paints commonly available (at least to five-year-old kids like me) were Testor's glossy enamels.  (Well, the hobby shops also sold something called "Dope," but the aspiring modeler quickly found out that it inflicted horrible things on plastic.)  I've bought several airbrushes over the years, and they certainly have their place; some jobs almost require them, and I greatly admire the work that my airbrush-enthusiast friends are able to do with them.  Personally, though, I still tend to gravitate toward hand brushing.  I'm sure that's partly due to the fact that I've never spent the time necessary to develop a good airbrush technique.  But I also have to admit that I simply get more enjoyment out of painting by hand - and enjoyment, as far as I'm concerned, is what the hobby is about.

I inflicted the smells of turpentine and enamel paints on the household all through my youth and adolescence.  I guess it must have been in about 1975 or thereabouts that I discovered Poly-S water-soluble paints.  (I believe the original Poly-S formula was, strictly speaking, latex rather than acrylic.  Don't ask me just what the difference is.)  I immediately noticed several things.  The stuff covered well, produced minimal brushstrokes (if any), and was available in an excellent variety of colors.  (I still think the old Poly-S "Sahara Sand" was a great color for the unpainted wood decks of modern warships.)  I had some reservations about its consistency (some colors seemed to brush much more easily than others), and I hesitated to use it for some purposes.  Then I noticed that, whereas I had been in the habit of working at the bench for three or four hours at a stretch, when I used Poly-S I'd enjoy myself thoroughly for periods of five and six hours - and quit reluctantly because it was three or four o'clock in the morning.  I realized that, without having any idea that it had been happening, I'd been doping myself on the fumes from solvent-based paints and turpentine.  That did it.  Since then I've been a whole-hearted convert to water-based hobby paints.

The old Poly-S brand is gone now, replaced by Poly-Scale.  That's my current favorite.  I get along reasonably well with Testor's Acryl, but I find some of the individual colors in that line have a strange, syruppy consistency that just isn't as friendly as Poly-Scale's.    I would also urge anybody interested to take a look at the ranges of "craft" acrylic paints sold in arts and crafts stores.  They come in a huge variety of colors, seem to work just as well on styrene as the ones designed specifically for models do, and (drum roll, please) cost about a fifth as much per ounce.  You won't find "Panzer Yellow," "Burlington Northern Green," or "Haze Gray" in the ranges of those companies - but you will find an almost limitless variety of browns, grays, beiges, and blues.  And, in my experience at least, the "craft paints" are easier to find.  The Michael's Arts and Crafts store in the local shopping center carries two or three brands of them, totalling several hundred colors; I've even found the stuff at Wal-Mart.  If I want to buy a bottle of Poly-Scale or Testor's Acry, I have to drive 35 miles to the nearest "local" hobby shop.

Mg.mikael writes unfavorably about synthetic brushes; I have to say I've had the opposite experience.  There are some lousy synthetic brushes out there, but I've bought many in art supply stores (for extremely reasonable prices) that I consider excellent for model building.  I've also spent more money on red sable brushes - including the famous Windsor and Newton Number 7s - over the years.  They're wonderful tools all right, but in terms of texture, paint-holding ability, durability, and consistency (i.e., stiffness vs. flexibility), I find the modern synthetic ones every bit as good.  They do handle slightly differently, but with a little practice they're capable of producing excellent results - for a fraction of the price that the best sable-hair ones cost.  (One tip:  for painting large areas - wider than, say 1/8" - select a flat, chisel-point brush rather than a round one.  Flat brushes, for me at least, are much better at eliminating brush strokes.)

Some modelers have raised questions about the durability of acrylics.  Here are three ship models that I've painted with acrylics:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/johntilleygallery.htm .  (Each "album" contains several pictures; click on any of the three to open up the other shots of that model.)  The Bounty was finished in 1979, the Hancock in 1984, and the Phantom in (I think) 2006.  All the photos are recent.  None of the paint has been touched up since the models were finished.  I think it's holding up about as well as any sort of hobby paint can be expected to.

One strange feature of hobby paints and painting techniques is that they seem to behave differently for different people.  (Some of my friends say they just "can't" get the kind of results I get with hand-brushing.  And some of them get spectacular results that I can't match.)  That different modelers swear by acrylics and others swear by enamels (or Testor's vs. Poly-Scale, or synthetic vs. natural-bristle brushes) doesn't mean any of those individuals is "right" or "wrong."  (It's worth noting, incidentally, that Floquil, Testor's, Pactra, and Poly-Scale are all owned by the same people nowadays.) To my notion, one of the most rewarding aspects of the hobby is trying out different techniques and materials, and finding out which ones work best for you.    

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Bridgeview, Illinois
Posted by mg.mikael on Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:00 AM
 morefirejules08 wrote:

im off to buy my first batch of paints since i have returned to the hobby, i used to use enamel as a kid so could some one please tell me the pro's and cons of the 2 types of paint? i will be brush painting to start and maybe air brushing when i can get hold of one,

cheers chris

First off, get yourself a quality pair of brushes to paint with. I like the natural hair brushes, in my opinion synthetic brushes are a waste of money. As for paints, I've brush-painted models in both acrylic and enamel. I've found that acrylic is the way to go, especially ModelMaster Acrylics. They go on nicely, bruch strokes won't appear as often, and they got an all-around great color selection.(Stay away from Tamiya acrylics when brush painiting.) Enamels I've found are much trickier to brush paint correctly. Brush strokes can be a persistent problem for modelers just starting out, but if you practice it gets easier. It's one of those things you learn from making mistakes.

Here's a pic of a recent build of mine, painted using ModelMaster Acrylics.

"A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week." - George S. Patton

  Photobucket 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: uk
Posted by morefirejules08 on Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:53 AM
i think i'll be on the humbol enamels as thats what my LHS stocks! what is used to think enamels and how many coats would i generally be looking at? what i want to do is paint the model then give it a gloss coat for the decals then a matt coat over the whole lot, does that sound right?if so what am i looking for to do this? sorry for the dense questions!!Ashamed [*^_^*]
  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:26 AM

For brush-painting, enamels are the way to go... Acrylics are a PITA to brush, I don't care what anyone says.. They lift off if you have to go over them before they cure, and just generally belong in an airbrush...  They work pretty good on porous materials like wood & paper, but on styrene or metal fuggeddaboutit...

I'd recommend Testor's Model Master enamels for brushing since they're really good on color selection and general availability...

As for "environmental concerns", well... I've been using them for about 44 years and they've never killed me or anyone in my family yet..

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: uk
Posted by morefirejules08 on Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:38 AM
to be honest its the cost of an airbrush that is the problem at the moment unfortunatly! i will invest in one in the future but for now it has to be brush paintingSad [:(], so your saying enamel will be best for this??
  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:23 AM
I've found it easier to brush enamels. You have to weigh the environmental and health concerns of you and your family from exposure to petroleum based paints and thinners. You should consider exploring airbrushing...you can get an affordable single action siphon feed unit to start with. You find that brush painting something you'll only do for small parts. Try it, you'll be glad you did.

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: uk
enamel or acrylic?
Posted by morefirejules08 on Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:18 AM

im off to buy my first batch of paints since i have returned to the hobby, i used to use enamel as a kid so could some one please tell me the pro's and cons of the 2 types of paint? i will be brush painting to start and maybe air brushing when i can get hold of one,

cheers chris

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