Need some help

Maybe Ross will chime in on this post since he has the chemist background in paints.

Personally I see absolutely no reason whatsover to use lacquer thinner with an acrylic paint.

I think the lacquer thinner upsets the chemistry of the acrylic and that is why you experienced what you did. Tamiya acrylics spray beautifully for me with ethyl alcohol and others have great success with 91% Iso alcohol. Have you tried these as thinners? I would seriously consider it.

Yep, I've been using ethyl alcohol , 91% and Tamiya X-20 thinner with Tamiya for years.

The article and video called for lacquer thinner with Tamiya paints.

So I'm trying them.

I'll try to post a lint to the article.

Maybe I had better not post the link since it's on another web site.

Anyway here is the part about lacquer thinner.

"It is also important to know that I use lacquer thinner to thin the Tamiya paints I am using for this style. 96% Isopropyl alcohol has always been the means for modelers to thin Tamiya paints because of the false assumption that they are acrylics. Tamiya paints are not acrylics. They are only advertised as so to probably make them look less toxic. Tamiya offers both an alcohol type thinner and a lacquer thinner. The quickest way to distinguish the two thinners is that the alcohol type thinner contains a blue cap while the lacquer type has a yellow cap. You want the Tamiya thinner with the yellow cap. Tamiya paints spray much better and go on much smoother when using the lacquer thinner. You will also notice less of that dreaded sandy build-up on the surface of the model often obtained with Tamiya XF paints. This is very important because I apply successive layers of paints when working toward the highlights. Therefore it is very important that all of these layers spray on smooth to help ensure a nice sound basecoat."

The article was written by  Adam Wilder .

Kentucky Colonel

Maybe I had better not post the link since it's on another web site.

Anyway here is the part about lacquer thinner.

"It is also important to know that I use lacquer thinner to thin the Tamiya paints I am using for this style. 96% Isopropyl alcohol has always been the means for modelers to thin Tamiya paints because of the false assumption that they are acrylics. Tamiya paints are not acrylics. They are only advertised as so to probably make them look less toxic. Tamiya offers both an alcohol type thinner and a lacquer thinner. The quickest way to distinguish the two thinners is that the alcohol type thinner contains a blue cap while the lacquer type has a yellow cap. You want the Tamiya thinner with the yellow cap. Tamiya paints spray much better and go on much smoother when using the lacquer thinner. You will also notice less of that dreaded sandy build-up on the surface of the model often obtained with Tamiya XF paints. This is very important because I apply successive layers of paints when working toward the highlights. Therefore it is very important that all of these layers spray on smooth to help ensure a nice sound basecoat."

 

The article was written by  Adam Wilder .

To each his own I guess. If I am going to use lacquer thinner than I will use enamels instead of Tamiya acrylics. I would like to hear Ross comment on this thread as I think the guy who wrote that article is full of it.

If Tamiya is not acrylic then how is it thinned with alcohol? He also claims the paint finish is less sandy with this technique? If he would learn how to airbrush it wouldn't be sandy.

There is a certain amount of (mostly unintentional) misinformation about Tamiya Acrylics.

I keep reading articles like that above where "xxxx says they are not true acrylics because they can be thinned with (insert thinner of choice)". 

Model paint manufacturers have traditionally used the ability to use water to clean up as a huge marketing tool for promoting acrylic paints. Though acrylic compounds (when uncured) can be soluble in water, it does not automatically mean that all acrylics are water-based.

The fact is, the type of reducer is irrelevant. "Acrylic"s are a particular group of polymers with a particular molecular structure.  Acrylic paints do not simply dry, they cure by the linking of smaller molecules (known as monomers) to form more complex  molecules of the Acrylic group by a process known as polymerisation. In effect, acrylic paints do not simply dry, they cure, forming a film of plastic.

I suspect that Tamiya's "lacquer thinner" has a higher proportion of alcohol and less of the other "aggressive" solvents compared with generic hardware store lacquer thinner. This may account for the fact that Tamiya's lacquer thinner is said to be "styrene friendly", and styrene parts can be safely soaked in it without dissolving. It's also worth noting that on average, Tamiya acrylic paints are approximately 25% water.Your mileage may vary with generic lacquer thinners.

I haven't used lacquer thinners with Tamiya acrylics - I see no need to. I use ethyl alcohol or Tamiya X-20A under certain circumstances. I'm not saying that Rick, Adam or Mig are wrong in using Tamiya lacquer thinners, but they ARE wrong in saying that Tamiya paints aren't acrylic based on what they can thin the paints with.

This is something I've been meaning to try for a while now because I've seen several people on different forums claim that's how they use Tamiya acrylics. Well, I almost forgot again tonite but just before I came upstairs I decided to at least try mixing a little. Didn't shoot any because I'd already cleaned up. Promise to shoot it tomorrow nite.

But, I did mix up a little X-8 Lemon Yellow with some medium temp lacquer thinner and was somewhat surprised to see how well it mixed. Was fully expecting it to turn to goo but that didn't happen. Didn't try any others till I get to shoot this, want to make sure it works first.  I'll get back to you tonite and let you know how it goes. Basically I'm just trying it out of curiousity.

Don't know why your paint cracked in places, may just be a hazard of mixing with lacquer thinner. Or maybe it was too thin and there just wasn't enough paint there to maintain the film. Maybe it dried/cured to quickly. I've had that happen with Pactra polycarb paints intended for lexan bodies. I use lacquer thinner with them. Usually on final coats, color or clear, I'll over-reduce quite a bit to help the paint level and with the polycarb paints it cracked a couple times. I don't know what the Pactra thinner is that's meant to be used with these paints but it sure smells like lacquer thinner. The reason I mention that is Tamiya sells polycarb paints too and while I've never used them I figured that's what their lacquer thinner is intended for. Or maybe for people that decant their lacquer sprays to use in an airbrush.

Tony

Alright then. I didn't try any flats but did shoot the lemon yellow and some gold leaf thinned with lacquer thinner and both sprayed just fine. I tried a little lemon yellow thinned with Tamiya's X-20 and couldn't tell much difference although the previous batch with lacquer thinner did look a little smoother. Could have just been the mix, wasn't hardly enough to notice. I'll check them tomorrow to see if either cracked.

I haven't used Tamiya paints a lot. Intended to, just never got around to it till now. So some of what I have has been around at least 2 - 3 years and maybe 4. Some are newer. Maybe it's just the different paints but some of the bottles do list mineral spirits as an ingredient. Others don't say anything about the make up. But, if I get in a bind and run out of Tamiya thinner at least now I know I can use lacquer thinner.

Tony

Wingman_kz

I Maybe it's just the different paints but some of the bottles do list mineral spirits as an ingredient. Others don't say anything about the make up.

Hi Tony,

It sounds a little unusual that  mineral spirits would be listed as an ingredient. As far asI know, most Tamiya acrylics are about 25% water, and mineral spirits and water (as far as I know) are incompatible. As far as I'm aware, the labelling hasn't changed in the last five years or more (here in Australia anyway) and says little more than "Contains Isopropanol and glycol ethers".

Are you sure you've got Tamiya acrylics (round bottle) and not Tamiya enamels (rectangular bottle, similar to the old Testors style) ?

Yeh Phil, I'm sure. I was kinda surprised too but that's what it says. X8 Lemon Yellow and X12 Gold Leaf. I don't have a lot of Tamiya paints, 6 or 7 flats, all the clears, white, gunmetal, chrome silver and the yellow and gold. Most don't list any ingredients at all but a couple list iso and glycol. The yellow and gold list iso, glycol and mineral spirits. I confess to never reading the labels before but had noticed the carrier in these two looked a little strange to be a water based paint.

When I shot those colors last nite I didn't over reduce them, just my normal *looks good to me* and they sprayed very nicely with lacquer thinner. This evening neither had cracked and the yellow was just a little smoother with lacquer thinner. Both were nice. Just for the heck of it I topped them all with some very thin clear nail polish cut with lacquer thinner. Didn't mist it, just layed a couple really wet coats on and both paints reduced with lacquer thinner weren't phased and looked good. The yellow that I had used Tamiya thinner with turned a little flat but didn't lift of wrinkle.

I haven't posted any pics here because my ISP makes it kind of a pain to use my web space but I'll snap a couple pics of the labels and post them here this weekend.

Tony

OK, here's some pics. I was mistaken about the X8 lemon yellow, sorry, but do have two labels that list mineral spirits. X11 Chrome Silver and X12 Gold Leaf. I do have a bunch of similar yet different labels and a couple of bottles that been relabeled. This has something to do with our EPA and the state of California and started a few years ago. Also the reason that some Tamiya, Gunze and other products aren't available in US hobby shops anymore. Here's the pics...

I won't post all the pics of the different labels unless someone wants to see them.  There's 6 or 7 variations.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Strange indeed. The MSDS sheets I've found for these colours (though dated 2008) do not list mineral spirits in the components.

Oh well, if it works, it works.

At first, I thought Tony had to be wrong about the mineral spirits.  I looked on my bottles and sure enough, it lists mineral spirits on the metals.  Totally weird.

In regards to lacquer thinner, why would someone use lacquer thinner with an acrylic paint anyway?  Isn't the lower levels of toxicity one of the major reasons to use acrylics?

-Jesse