What size needle for fine lines?

And as a Canadian for 15 years, who has lived in the Pacific Southwest (of Canada, that is) since 1967, I would have to agree.

Having lived in the Pacific Northwest for the last 15 years, and spent quite a lot of time in British Columbia, Canada, I am of the opinion that American Microbrews are better, Canadian store brands are better, but tie breaker goes to the lovely ladies of the great white North!

Chris

Bring some Sleeman's, Bill!

If we start the beer early, we'll just change it to a squiggly line contest.

Bgrigg

at least we put some alcohol in ours!

Both countries have plenty of Micro Brew beer that is top notch. Guess we're going to have a beer competition, too!

I will put up Arrogant Bastard Ale against anything up in the great white north eh!

By the way it is 7.2% ABV.

LOL!

I suggest we don't drink the beer until AFTER the competition, or none of us will do very well.

I will put any big name Canadian beer up against any big name US beer, as it's all swill. At least we put some alcohol in ours!

Both countries have plenty of Micro Brew beer that is top notch. Guess we're going to have a beer competition, too!

Oh, no, Mike...now you're opening a completely new can of worms!

mucker

I specifically invited Bill so he can bring some of that Canadian beer!

Canadian beer? Well maybe they have some that's palatable.

Bgrigg

But we all already know that the biggest determining factor for fine lines is...

PRACTICE!

Nozzle size, taper and paint supply just make that more or less difficult.

But I'm up for the beer!

As am I Bill! Now the contest part I would have to keep out of as I don't want you all to look bad.

That was humor by the way, less I be misconstrued.

But we all already know that the biggest determining factor for fine lines is...

PRACTICE!

Nozzle size, taper and paint supply just make that more or less difficult.

But I'm up for the beer!

I was going to suggest dueling pistols at 10 paces!

tyamada

You are showing a side feed airbrush with a suction style cup.  If you attach a gravity feed cup you get gravity feed.

Not necessarily. It is how the paint enters the airbrush that determines if it is a gravity feed airbrush or a siphon-feed airbrush by definition, not physics

I would say that Bgrigg's words saying, "I stand by my words that describe the side feed as half and half." is the most correct. It does siphon paint somewhat even when the side feed cup is above the airbrush.

Really.

I asked you to use my name properly, and I'm sensitive and a know it all.

We were discussing the Badger 100SF, and you post an image of a Grex, and I'm a sensitive know it all.

Wow.

Bgrigg:

Boy are you sensitive. Sorry If I offended. 

You are showing a side feed airbrush with a suction style cup.  If you attach a gravity feed cup you get gravity feed.  That's where you have the reservoir above the outlet to the airbrush.  I may rely on suction when the  cup is almost empty. 

Here is a link to a side feed airbrush that claims it's a gravity feed.

http://www.wetpaintart.com/closeup.asp?cid=1193&pid=20596&offset=0

Enough said, I will just drop the debate.

Tyamada,

With all due respect, my screen name is Bgrigg, not Brigg. It is my real name, and I respectfully ask that you spell it correctly.

If you wish to contact Ken, please do so. I have spent considerable time researching the various types of airbrushes.

Below are some definitions of side feed airbrushes. I have chosen sites that are "third party" IE places that do not have a vested interested in selling airbrushes. (all emphasis is mine):

Wikipedia: "Paint can be fed by gravity from a paint reservoir sitting atop the airbrush (called gravity feed) or siphoned from a reservoir mounted below (bottom feed) or on the side (side feed)."

Wet Canvas: "There are also two main ways to deliver the paint to the internal mixing airbrush. The first is siphon. Most siphon feed airbrushes have side feed cups or paint jars that are plugged into the side or bottom fo the airbrush."

The Tanning Store: Siphon-feed airbrushes can be further classified to bottom-feed or side-feed airbrushes,

Here is an image of the 100 Side Feed airbrush (source: Badger Airbrush), clearly showing that the bottom of the cup is well below the body of the airbrush. Air pressure, or gravity is not enough to overcome the need for the airbrush to siphon paint from the cup to the body.

You will note that those sites all consider a side feed airbrush to be a siphon feed system. However, a certain amount of paint is fed into the body by forces other than siphon. I stand by my words that describe the side feed as half and half.

Brigg

You should ask Ken for a more detailed explanation, he is a member here also.

tyamada

Brigg:

I'm not splitting hairs, he is saying that a side feed air brush is a bottom(siphon) feed, when the bottom feed bottle is used and is a gravity feed when the cup adapter is used (where the cup is above the airbrush).

He gave an example of the Renegade Spirit which comes with a bottle and a color cup.          

http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Renegade_Series.asp

It's like the Badger 360 that is convertible from a bottom(siphon) or gravity feed.

 

 

We're almost saying the same thing. Isn't language fun? I believe what is happening here is we are getting our mords wixed up!

Ken is actually calling it a gravity/artesian well attachment, and with a jar adapter it turns it into a true bottom fed airbrush. I've noticed that Ken likes to use the words bottom fed, instead of siphon fed, I'll come back to this.

In the case of a side feed airbrush the color cup attaches to the side, and the tube is completely horizontal. As we all know, gravity only works in one direction, and that is down. Gravity is considered an unstoppable force, but it actually quite weak, and it can't push paint sideways. The way a side feed works is by utilizing the principle of liquids seeking their own level. Air pressure is pushing down on the surface of the paint in the color cup and that is what is feeding the paint to the airbrush. An artesian well works by pressure from the ground above the well water and pushes the water to the surface. Hence Ken's description. But air pressure alone can't account for the paint getting into the air flow.

ALL airbrushes are, to a certain extent, siphon airbrushes, and this is why I think Ken eschews the word siphon to describe a bottom feed airbrush. It is the siphon created by the air supply that pulls the paint into the air flow where it atomizes.This is how the Badger 360 can be both gravity and bottom feed. If Badger made a side feed cup that fit the 360, it could also work as a side feed.

Gravity fed airbrushes drip the paint into the air flow, and don't use much of the air pressure to move the paint along. Too low, and the air brush can't atomize the paint properly and some of the pressure is required to keep the paint flowing smoothly, Run out of paint, and you'll notice that the airbrush will vacuum what paint there is out of the cup. You can even hear a little sucking sound as it evacuates the last bits of paint, leaving only what adheres to the surface behind. That is the siphon action that is created by the air pressure. Turn a gravity airbrush upside down and drop the cup lip into water and crank up the air pressure and you'll see that siphoning does in fact happen.

Bottom feed airbrushes are completely siphon action. They pull the paint up from the bottle or color cup, and require the most air pressure. Without sufficient air pressure, the paints stays put.

Side feed are somewhere between those. The "artesian" action delivers the paint and the siphon takes over. Air pressure is even weaker than gravity, and so you require slightly more air pressure than a completely gravity feed system.

Hence the reason I said it's half and half. Most people are only familiar with gravity or siphon/bottom. Side feed is halfway between the two. Throwing in artesian would only confound and confuse people.

Brigg:

I'm not splitting hairs, he is saying that a side feed air brush is a bottom(siphon) feed, when the bottom feed bottle is used and is a gravity feed when the cup adapter is used (where the cup is above the airbrush).

He gave an example of the Renegade Spirit which comes with a bottle and a color cup.          

http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Renegade_Series.asp

It's like the Badger 360 that is convertible from a bottom(siphon) or gravity feed.

To quote Ken's reply on that forum (emphasis mine):

a side feed airbrush that comes with a color cup and/or jar adaptor stem option can be used as either gravity or bottom feed. with the cup it is gravity/artesian well fed. with the jar option it is bottom feed. The best example of this in Badger's range is the side feed Renegade Spirit R2S, which comes with both the color cup and the jar as standard items in the set.

Seems that he is saying gravity feed or siphon (bottom) feed to me? It is not a pure gravity system as there is a tube that the paint must travel through, and that requires more suction than a top mounted cup.

Is splitting hairs your area of expertise?

Bgrigg

 

Killjoy:

 

Side note, does anyone here own a 100 side feed?  How does it spray compared to a 100 LG?  I was thinking of grabbing a garage sale one, and wondered what folks thought of theirs?

Sorry for the thread hijack!

Chris

 

 

Chris,

A friend of mine has the 100SF, and it sprays EXACTLY like the 100LG. The only physical difference between the 100LG, 100SF and 150 is the connection point for the cup. The side feed is part gravity, part siphon as the tube connects on the "flat".

Bgrigg:

The side feed airbrush is not part siphon feed and gravity feed, it depends on how the paint is supplied to it.

There was a discussion on a side feed airbrush on ARC and Ken Shoenfeld (kenbadger) answered the debate with this post.

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=202164&view=findpost&p=1925191

Killjoy

MikeV:

 You people looking for the "Holy Grail" of airbrushes have to realize once and for all that it is the skill of the user and not the design or materials that the needle and tip are made of that determines the final quality of an airbrushed model.  

Amen Brother Mike!  Preach on!

I could not carve a statue of an animal out of wood with the finest chisels, hammers, and rasps known to mankind.  But I once watched a guy make a pretty cool bear out of a tree stump in like 5 minutes with a chainsaw!

It's the user, not the tool until you are talking about the uber skilled .5% of the earths population, and then they may be able to tell the difference in taper or diameter in microns.  I cannot.

It is true that user all have different skill level, but that does not prevent them from appreciate a finer tool.

I will not try to tell a wood worker that all chisels are the same because I cannot carve.

The BMW 328i and the Toyota Corola are both good cars and can get you where you want to go, but the 328i costs 2 times more. You can tell the difference when you get behind the wheel.

Your argument reminds me of the argument in the stereophile field years ago. The mainstream magazine like Stereo Review had been saying that there was no difference in sound from all amplifiers. It took Gordon Holt and Harry Peterson years to prove them wrong and they did.

I had a Paasche H for years and did not like it. I upgraded to a Aztek 470 after seeing all the Brent Green videos, but decided that I couldn't do what Brent did with the Aztek. I got rid of the Aztec and got an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS and had been very happy with it since.

The difference of airbrushes are NOT in taper or tip diameter in microns. It is about the handling, control and easy of cleaning. It is about the enjoyment of your hobby. And the quality of construction of an airbrush has a strong influence on how an airbrush works. Don't try to tell me that I cannot tell the difference of an airbrush in handling, control and easy of cleaning even I cannot paint as well as you do.

MikeV

 You people looking for the "Holy Grail" of airbrushes have to realize once and for all that it is the skill of the user and not the design or materials that the needle and tip are made of that determines the final quality of an airbrushed model.

Amen Brother Mike!  Preach on!

I could not carve a statue of an animal out of wood with the finest chisels, hammers, and rasps known to mankind.  But I once watched a guy make a pretty cool bear out of a tree stump in like 5 minutes with a chainsaw!

It's the user, not the tool until you are talking about the uber skilled .5% of the earths population, and then they may be able to tell the difference in taper or diameter in microns.  I cannot.

Needle stops? Haha!

Come on people this is not rocket science! It is not that hard to spray fine lines with an airbrush. My goodness! You people looking for the "Holy Grail" of airbrushes have to realize once and for all that it is the skill of the user and not the design or materials that the needle and tip are made of that determines the final quality of an airbrushed model.

This fact gets tiresome to expound upon to tell you the truth!

Preset Stop question:

I thought it would be something that I'd use.

The reality is that I don't.

After hand-polishing my trigger, the Velocity works so well that I don't need the preset stop.   But I'm only working on 1/35 at the moment.    Maybe I'll use it when playing with 1/72.  But to  be honest, probably not.

BTW,  I don't hold the trigger with the tip of my finger. I use the first knuckle while the tip of my finger always stays in contact with the brush.   I think that if I were to use the tip of my finger to hold the trigger, then I may use it more.

None of my dual action airbrushes have the preset. The 100LG has a screw that limits the trigger returning to closed, but it doesn't work very well, or I don't understand how to use it (and in fact, I've lost the screw). My single action uses a preset by design, and it works very well at locking the position in place. It's why I can spray a finer line with my 200 and medium needle than the 100 with the fine needle.

Bgrigg

Taper is a far better measurement of an airbrush, but that is also one of the hardest specifications to find. You should try the Velocity, it has an extremely long taper.

Yes, I had come across some high resolution pictures of the Renegade needle. If I assume that the diameter is the same as that of the Patriot, the taper is much longer than the 105 fine needle and about the same as the Iwata Eclipse standard needle taper.

Bgrigg

BTW, how are you finding the H&S?

Ahh, not enough time to play with it yet. I first noticed that the spray was "too" fine for modeling. Then I figured out that the pre-set knot was set at the finest position from the factory.   Now, it is better when I loosened it. LOL

keilau

 

All airbrush pages on books, internet or encyclopedia define "internal mix airbrush" as one where the paint and air mix inside the airbrush (in the tip) creating a finer atomized "mist" of paint. (Words copied from Wiki)

Well, if it says that in Wiki, that pretty much settles it doesn't it.  Have you really read all the airbrush books?

I know that the head of an internal mix airbrush has the needle, the nozzle and a nozzle head cover (different name by different brand). Below is a cutaway picture of an airbrush from Zsolt. Can you use it to explain why you say:

in an internal mix airbrush, the air and paint do not mix inside the brush

That photo is so small, it's pretty hard to see anything.  As I said, it's internal if you consider the tip of the needle as internal.  In this example the needle is fully inside the tip cap, so you might call that internal.  I think that's splitting hairs.  My concern is that new users may be led to believe that mixing goes on inside the body of the brush, and this could lead to confusion as to how the airbrush functions and make it more difficult for them to figure out what's wrong when they have a problem.  You certainly understand that the fluid and air don't cross paths until the front surface of the head.  Why would you want to add to the confusion?

This has nothing to do with the original subject of the thread, so I am dropping the matter.

Don

One topic on drawing fine line that has not been mentioned in this thread is the use of "pre-set stop"

The Badger Renegade has it and calls it "rear adjusting screw". Daywalker reported that it works very well and he drew the finest line with it. (Part R-0115)

The Harder & Steenbeck Evolution Silverline series has it and calls it "stop screw paint volume control" (Part M).

The Paasche Talon has it and calls it simply "handle stop". (Part TAL-34)

Even my cheaper Powercat 208 knock-off has it.

Some higher end Iwata has the "pre-set handle" as standard, but not the Eclipse HP-CS. You can buy the pre-set handle for the Eclipse for $18.70 at BearAir.

Any other comments on the "pre-set"? I would image that it is useful in painting mottle on small scale models.