I've been using a Grex brush for about a year now and am very satified. Mine is the model with the small paint cup mounted on top- I think the XG model. It has the top mounted button trigger so I'm sorry I have no experience with the pistol grip design.

Still all in all it's a well-made, quality brush.

From what I gather from the Grex website, the first half of the trigger travel controls the air, and the rest controls the needle.

Gamera, thanks for your quick reply.

Bgrigg, that's what I don't get, how can you control the air when  you have to keep pulling to get paint. With a 'regular' trigger, how far down you go controls the air and then you pull back to get paint.  But since there's only one continuous motion with the pistol grip, how can this same control be achieved?  Should have asked the guy giving the demo, but there were too many people around and I was impatient.

Waikong,check with Marc Rocca (wingnut) I think he said he did his Jagdtiger with a Grex .

Well, there really is no "control" for air, the air is either on or off, there is no little bit of air, a bit more, then all the air. Pulling the trigger back halfway starts the air flow, just like depressing a top mounted trigger does on the regular DA airbrush. The second half of the trigger travel controls the needle position, again just like a regular airbrush does.

What I don't get is how do you pull back the needle to clean out the tip in case of the paint drying prematurely. In my 100LG I can leave the air off, and pull back the needle with the trigger. That doesn't seem possible with the Tritium trigger.

Bgrigg

What I don't get is how do you pull back the needle to clean out the tip in case of the paint drying prematurely. In my 100LG I can leave the air off, and pull back the needle with the trigger.

Bill,

That's the first time I've heard of anyone doing that.  I thought the needle was the part that needs cleaning.

Don

waikong

Was at the NJIPMS show 2 weeks ago and GREX was there showing their airbrushes and compressors. I was particularly impressed with the model (Tritium)  with a 'pistol' style trigger instead of the conventional top finger tigger.

Has anyone have experiences with them? How does the pistal style work as a double action brush, as there's only one single motion - pulling back vs the tradtional trigger that allows me to control air (down) and paint (back) separately. I'm not sure how that works in a pistol grip, sures looks more comfortable though.

Waikong, did you check the ARC "Tools n Tips" forum yet.  Here is one thread that Tritium model is mentioned.

Thanks for the link to ARC, I'll check it out now.

Don Wheeler

 

Bgrigg:

 

What I don't get is how do you pull back the needle to clean out the tip in case of the paint drying prematurely. In my 100LG I can leave the air off, and pull back the needle with the trigger.

 

 

Bill,

That's the first time I've heard of anyone doing that.  I thought the needle was the part that needs cleaning.

Don

Don,

You paint with enamels, right? You don't suffer tip dry like us acrylic painters do. What happens is the acrylic paint will start to dry on the spray regulator and build up then clog. By pulling back the needle without using air, you can use a swab dipped in thinner or alcohol to clean out the tip. If you watch a T-Shirt artist work, they just reach in and use their finger tips, but they pump out a lot more paint than I do!

With the Grex trigger controlling the air, you can't easily pull back the needle to do this.

Had I purchased my Grex before I got an Iwata, I probably wouldn't have bought the Iwata.

I picked up this set from MidTenn Hobbies...which advertise here on FSM

HawkeyeHobbies

Had I purchased my Grex before I got an Iwata, I probably wouldn't have bought the Iwata.

Gerald, can you shed some light on Waihong's original question:

How do you get double action from a single trigger pull?

How do you re-learn from the Iwata push-pull trigger?

From the Grex website:

Double Action Pistol Style Trigger

An intuitive, easy-to-use, and comfortable trigger system that offers fine control from detailed to wide spraying. Two stage operation; first half of trigger motion controls the air and the second half controls the paint volume.

Bgrigg

From the Grex website:

Double Action Pistol Style Trigger

An intuitive, easy-to-use, and comfortable trigger system that offers fine control from detailed to wide spraying. Two stage operation; first half of trigger motion controls the air and the second half controls the paint volume.

Bill, I have seen that. It is SINGLE action on my book. (Yes, it is different from the traditional single action such as the Badger 200 where the trigger controls only the air flow.) I just don't understand how Grex justify calling it "double action". What better than getting an expert opinion from a Grex user, Gerald?

Double Action usually refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and paint (down for air, back for paint). It allows for varying line widths while spraying. (No, I did not master this skill if you ask me.)

No, a single action's trigger only turns the air on or off, and you manually position the needle, which cannot be adjusted (at least not easily) while using the airbrush. Dual action use the same trigger for both air and needle position. Push down for air and pull back for paint. The Grex trigger is pull back part way for air and pull back more for some paint and even more for more paint.

It actually looks fairly comfortable, and intuitive.

Are you then saying with a double action brush, the air is ether on or off? That the airflow does not increase as you press the trigger down? I was just doing some airbrushing this morning, and it sure seems like the more I push the trigger in, the more air comes through. I count on this sometimes to feather my finsihes, or have I been fooling myself all alone on how this works?

waikong

Are you then saying with a double action brush, the air is ether on or off? That the airflow does not increase as you press the trigger down? I was just doing some airbrushing this morning, and it sure seems like the more I push the trigger in, the more air comes through. I count on this sometimes to feather my finsihes, or have I been fooling myself all alone on how this works?

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires.  Normal use is to press the trigger all the way down and control paint flow by forward and aft motion.

Don

Well, I've never heard of an airbrush that has a modulating trigger for airflow. An airbrush needs a certain amount of air pressure in order to atomize the paint and modulating the air could potentially lead to all sorts of issues with paint flow that I find it difficult to comprehend a use for that ability.

I just fired mine up to see if I could feel a difference in air flow with my Badger 100LG, and it sure seems to me that it is either on or off. Now I'm using the unscientific measurement of pointing the nozzle at my finger and depressing the trigger. I cannot adjust the trigger to a point where I feel only a little air coming out. The trigger has a mere 1/16" of travel in which to adjust the air flow in, and that seems too fine of an adjustment to attempt such control. It takes a certain amount of finger pressure to overcome the spring assembly that holds the air flow off.

It would be analogous to compare an airbrush to a handgun, pulling the trigger harder doesn't fire the bullet any faster.

The only air control I've seen on an airbrush are the MAC control valves as offered by Grex, Iwata and others. That allows minute amounts of air pressure change at the airbrush without going to the regulator. A dubious ability for modeling IMHO. Being able to adjust air flow in tiny increments may be of some value for airbrush illustrators who use inks and non-pigmented media, but I can't see the need to adjust between 12 and say 12.25 psi for model paints.

Bgrigg

Well, I've never heard of an airbrush that has a modulating trigger for airflow.

Don Wheeler

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires. 

We have many Badger users on this forum. I will use some direct quote from this page.

SINGLE ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls only the air flow. The amount of fluid is regulated by turning the needle adjustment screw. When the trigger is depressed, a pre-set amount of fluid is sprayed.

This applies to the Badger 200 and said trigger controls "AIR FLOW ONLY" by design. It is 180 degree opposite to what Bill and Don said. I don't have one so I will let the Badger 200 user to describe how their airbrush works.

Don Wheeler

Normal use is to press the trigger all the way down and control paint flow by forward and aft motion.

Don

From the same Badger page:

DUAL ACTION refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and color (down for air, back for color). This style airbrush allows for varying line widths while spraying.

This applies to the Badger 100 series. Modeler may work differently than a fine artist doing painting and do not need Badger's intended purpose. But it still does not make a Badger trigger an "on-off" only switch.

I know these facts without haveing to look at the Badger page. I just push the trigger on my Iwata in and out and can feel the distinctive difference in air flow. No paint comes out until I pull back the trigger.

We all know that the "trigger" Grex is different. Can we let a user like Gerald to explain it instead of jumping to conclusion. This is the original question asked.

Don Wheeler

 

waikong:

 

Are you then saying with a double action brush, the air is ether on or off? That the airflow does not increase as you press the trigger down? I was just doing some airbrushing this morning, and it sure seems like the more I push the trigger in, the more air comes through. I count on this sometimes to feather my finsihes, or have I been fooling myself all alone on how this works?

 

 

You may have some control over air flow with your trigger, but it was not designed for that.  It is actually a poppet valve like you have in the valve stem of your tires.  Normal use is to press the trigger all the way down and control paint flow by forward and aft motion.

Don

 

why would you always press it fully down? especially for doing fine line or camo patterns where you want low pressure so you can move in right up close to your part and have full control

most of the time i use my airbrush i barely even push the trigger part way down for low pressure  or if im painting a car and want full spray pattern I'll use full pressure.

i thought this was the beauty of a dual action airbrush...

JTRACING

 

why would you always press it fully down? especially for doing fine line or camo patterns where you want low pressure so you can move in right up close to your part and have full control

most of the time i use my airbrush i barely even push the trigger part way down for low pressure  or if im painting a car and want full spray pattern I'll use full pressure.

i thought this was the beauty of a dual action airbrush...

If you have the dexterity to control air flow by finger pressure on the trigger, more power to you.  I can't.  Dual action doesn't mean dual variable action.  A variable air valve could be used.  But it would probably have a longer throw, and it would be a bugger to learn to use.

Here is a quote from an on line airbrushing lesson at howtoairbrush.com.

"While airbrushing always leave the air on trigger fully depressed, air always on."

The reason some people like the Mac valve is that it allows them to alter the air flow right at the airbrush.  I just reach over and adjust the regulator on my air line.  Whatever floats your boat.

Don

thats cool, i dont use a regulator i like to do it on the fly so you can vary spray pressure and whatnot as your painting

with the trigger type, it gives you lower air pressure when the needle is less open for fine lines etc and more pressure as you pull back for full coverage. its just not as controllable as the old style push button. because if you pull all the way back you are stuck with high pressure unless you have a regulator on your compressor i suppose.

Wow, I didn't konw I was opening such a can of worms here. It sure seems like different airbrushes have different behaviors? I use my aztek 470 (yes, I know lots of people hate it) and it has at least 1/4" of travel, it seems to vary airflow to me. It does alow me to vary how much 'strong' the air is. It also has a dial in the rear that seems to behave like the MAC valve, that is it limits how much paint can come out, even with trigger pulled completely back.

Thanks for everyone's input, I'm about as confused as before, but I've learned a lot! Perhaps the pistol grip grex behaves as those airbrushes that basically have on/off for air? Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.

waikong

Wow, I didn't konw I was opening such a can of worms here. It sure seems like different airbrushes have different behaviors? I use my aztek 470 (yes, I know lots of people hate it) and it has at least 1/4" of travel, it seems to vary airflow to me. It does alow me to vary how much 'strong' the air is. It also has a dial in the rear that seems to behave like the MAC valve, that is it limits how much paint can come out, even with trigger pulled completely back.

Thanks for everyone's input, I'm about as confused as before, but I've learned a lot! Perhaps the pistol grip grex behaves as those airbrushes that basically have on/off for air? Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.

Hey, we're all learning something. I didn't know the Aztek had that much air control.  It is a unique design.  I suspect the knob on the back limits needle travel.  A Mac valve limits air.

I looked at your web site and you do some beautiful work.

Don

Don Wheeler

waikong:

Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.

Hey, we're all learning something. I didn't know the Aztek had that much air control.  It is a unique design.  I suspect the knob on the back limits needle travel.  A Mac valve limits air.

I looked at your web site and you do some beautiful work.

Don

In deed, I learn something new today. There are significant difference in trigger action between Badger and others. I was intrigued by the comments that Don and Bill Grigg made about the push action of the trigger that it is merely an on-off for air flow. I took out my 5 internal mix, dual action airbrushes and do a subjective, non-scientific test this afternoon. The airbrushes are:

Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, H&S Evolution Silverline Solo, Badger Patriot 105F, PowerCat 203 (CM C+ clone) and PowerCat 800 (155 clone).

The air flow measurement instrument is my left hand palm. And my conclusion:

1. All the triggers, including the Badger, control the air flow AND the paint flow. Push down for air and pull back for paint.
2. All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
3. The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat's, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.
4. The PowerCat 203 has a MAC (micro air control) valve which provides very graduate and line air flow control if you need it.
5. From Bill Grigg's description of the Badger 100LG trigger, the Badger characteristic seems not Patriot only.
6. From the post by Waikong, the Aztek seems to have comparable air flow trigger action to the Iwata and H&S.

This seems to explain why Bill Grigg and Don Wheeler had a different view on the dual action trigger. This is only one data point for the Badger Patriot. It would be wonderful if other users can post side-by-side observation of other brand mix.

I report only my observations. No preference or statement about which is better. Don't hit me. Feel free to disagree with my observations. Test and post your results.

keilau

 

1. All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
2. The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat's, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.

So, from what you found, with the Iwata and the H&S, air goes from full off to full on with a trigger displacement of about 3/32 of an inch.  That's pretty sensitive.  Do you find that this is of any real value when painting?  Apparently, the Aztek has a stroke about twice as long.

Don

Don Wheeler

keilau:

1. All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
2. The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat's, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.

 

So, from what you found, with the Iwata and the H&S, air goes from full off to full on with a trigger displacement of about 3/32 of an inch.  That's pretty sensitive.  Do you find that this is of any real value when painting?  Apparently, the Aztek has a stroke about twice as long.

Don

Don,

I paint more less like you do. I start the air flow first by push down on the trigger before pull back to control the paint. I have never mastered the skill of a fine artist to paint variable line width as I go. I have not done any free hand camo either, always masking.

Other modelers like James T (JTRACING) or Waikong found air flow control useful. I would expect that control comes in handy if one does more free hand camo or mott.

When you compare an Iwata and a Badger side-by-side, you will really have to look hard to notice the range of air flow change in an 1/32 stroke of the Badger. The longer 1/10" stroke of the Iwata is much easier to notice the effect. I am not surprised that you found the Badger trigger acts like an on-off only switch.

I observation is on the difference only. Don't read it any further.

I have posted several times before that there is difference in the nozzle and taper of the Iwata HP-CS vs. the Badger Patriot 105F (fine needle). The Iwata needle taper is twice longer that results in significant difference in the paint control action. I said that the Patriot is adequate for my level of modeling skill, but I prefer the Iwata style of paint control which provide a longer and more linear action. It is easier for me, have a better sense of accuracy and give more potential for future skill build up. I will strongly suggest that you try one of the Iwata and Harder & Steenbeck again. Does the air flow trigger action make a differeent to a highly skillful modeler? With your modeling skill so much higher than mine, your report will be much more helpful to the other modelers. 

Don, thanks for compliments regarding my website.

Thanks everyone for their input, I really learned so much in this thread - makes my hunting a new airbrush that much more interesting.

keilau

 

 Does the air flow trigger action make a differeent to a highly skillful modeler? With your modeling skill so much higher than mine, your report will be much more helpful to the other modelers. 

Whooops!  It's getting pretty deep in here.

Don

keilau

Bill, I have seen that. It is SINGLE action on my book. (Yes, it is different from the traditional single action such as the Badger 200 where the trigger controls only the air flow.) I just don't understand how Grex justify calling it "double action". What better than getting an expert opinion from a Grex user, Gerald?

Double Action usually refers to airbrushes on which the trigger controls both air and paint (down for air, back for paint). It allows for varying line widths while spraying. (No, I did not master this skill if you ask me.)

I won't claim to be an expert, but I've messed around with a grex on a few occassions and have been sorely tempted to buy one.

The Grex is a double action - you pull back to start the air and continue pulling to get paint.  Once the air is flowing, your control isin how far you pull back to release the needle and open the nozzle - thus varying the volume of paint being sprayed.  If you want to adjust airflow, you'll have to do that on your compressor.

They really are nice brushes.  Just picking one up at a show I was able to, literally, write my name as if I was using a pen.  The nozzle is also set up to allow you to touch the surface you are painting (or nearly so) and not get trapped air causing turbulence that disrupts the paint flow.

The one criticism I have heard (from a freind who owns one) is that they are a bit of a PITA to clean - particularly the version with the side-mount, ambidextrous paint bottle.