Laquer thinner to thin Acrylic?

OK, if you've read my previous replies to this and earlier threads, you'll know that I've been somewhat sceptical about the use of lacquer thinner with Tamiya acrylics.

I did a few quick test shots with it yesterday and it does work. Almost universally, everyone who has recomended it has simply said "it's better" but hasn't really explained why or how it's different.

Here's the skinny...

It super-extends the drying time so that the paint goes on wet and stays wet while you're covering the area so that any overspray on the feathered edge of your spray pattern will land in wet paint instead of on a dry/semi-dry surface.

Where paint thinned with Iso or denatured alcohol dries literally in seconds, when thinned with tamiya lacquer thinner, it can take several minutes.  The paint lays down wet and has time to level. This can certainly be advantageous if working with Tamiya's gloss acrylics which are notoriously difficult to airbrush smoothly. When thinned with Tamiya lacquer thinner it goes down glassy smooth.

It really depends on your individual painting style and methodology. It will help if you paint in broad strokes covering large areas. My own "style" often involves getting up close and personal and using the airbrush in a similar way to a conventional paintbrush using lots of little short strokes and layering to build depth. Because I paint this way, the quick drying of the alcohol thinned paint is actually an advantage. If it stayed wet while I did this, I would be seeing more runs and spiders. I can see, however, that under certain circumstances, havig the paint lay down "wet" does have some advantages.

Note that in some countries, one can get Tamiya's enamel range which duplicates the acrylic colours and dries more slowly, giving a similar result to that attained by using lacquer thinner with their acrylics. However, when the acrylics are thinned using  lacquer thinner, one can still use denatured alcohol to clean your airbrush, paintbrush and associated implements.  

I'm not going to say I'm converted, but I can recognise that it may certainly be advantageous under certain conditions, depending on your painting style.

I know this thread is a little old, but I was looking around TamiyaUSA's website and found this listed about their Acrylic paints:

Tamiya Acrylic bottled paints can be applied with a brush or airbrushed. Tamiya Acrylics may be mixed to achieve different color combinations. They are available in both gloss and flat finishes. X color codes are gloss finish and XF color codes are flat finishes. By using Tamiya "flat base" (X-21) additive, a modeler can convert a color that is only available in gloss into a flat. Tamiya acrylic paints are perfect for airbrushing since minimal thinning is required. Tamiya acrylic paints can be thinned using our acrylic thinner or our lacquer thinner. Expert modelers, who use our paints on a regular basis, have discovered a harder paint shell is achieved when using our Tamiya lacquer thinner with our acrylics for airbrushing.

Now I'm no Expert modeler but  I use to dislike Tamiya paint for airbrushing until I started using Tamiya lacquer thinner with it ,and now its all I use. If it just did'nt smell so bad

I'm not quibbling with any of the points made by Phil_H. I believe I noted that it's self-evident that Tamiya must work very nicely with its own acrylic thinner as well as other mediums. Because of questions raised on previous threads I had a nice chat with the manager of a big *** Blick store which caters to the art community but carries every type of paint this side of a local housing contractor - and carries a lot of airbrushing equipment to boot (hadn't realized how widely used the tool was in fine arts as well as crafts.) Anyway, he said that there were formal definitions of paint based usually upon the type of emulsion. He also said that within these definitions there were wide variations in the way paints worked - and singled out acrylics in this regard. Thus if we call a paint acrylic it may or may not thin well with water; alcohol might be just what the doctor ordered or it may destroy it. More to the point, some acrylics are great for plastic models while others - despite offering splendid colors on other surfaces - don't adhere. For the modeler, I think paint is what paint does. If an acrylic thins and cleans nicely with water three cheers. If an acrylic requires lacquer thinner and all of the ugly that comes with it, that's another story. As far as Tamiya goes, how well would it work with water alone? Life Color and Vallejo, as I understand it, will work well. I believe Badger railroad acrylics require water. I have no idea how well those two would do with lacquer thinner. However, I know Tamiya takes to it like a champ. I think we can see the other end of the extreme with Gunze Mr. Color. I never used the old "Mr Hobby" but understand they were acrylics in word and deed. The newer Mr. Color brand has acrylic on the bottle - but you don't treat them like like some other brand. Below is a note sent to me by the manager of Hobbywave, a site that specializes in fantasy models, and pumps Mr. Color as top gun. (Full disclosure - I've used Mr. Color once and was extremely impressed with the lovely color and tough finish that resulted. The cost was using lacquer thinner as recommended and a respirator - a gadget that you very definitely want because Mr. Color is strong stuff.)

Dear Eric,

You can basically take it (Gunze Mr. Color - EB) as lacquer although more precisely they are solvent based acrylics.  They are so far best IMHO if you minus the smell.  Make sure you use good respirator.

You don't want to thin it with water, you need to use lacquer/paint thinner or best to use Mr. Color Thinner.
If you're not using Mr. Color Thinner, then test thinning with small mixture, if they get gummy then you can't use it.  (such  as Tamiya thinner)  If you're going to use Mr. Color Thinner, try not to use Mr. Thinner for cleaning purpose, it gets expensive quick, instead use paint thinner, mineral spirits, etc from home hardware box stores.

Mr. Retarder is to slow the drying time, this is usually used for gloss effect, self leveling effect and some hand brush applying lacquer among other uses.  If you're just starting up, I'd keep retarder until you find specific needs.

Thinning ratio is usually personal preference though there are general guidelines.  It will vary with airbrushing distance, effects you're looking after, temp/hum etc.  Try from 2:1 (thinner/paint), test on scrap, if it runs reduce thinner by adding more color, if it sprays spider web or if surface looks sandy or look too dry add thinner.  If you're particular about math, you can write all this down when you're trying and then figure some specific ratio or if you're like me mix whatever test and remix.  Once thinned, store paint closed when you airbrush as thinner evaporates quickly, if you put much in the spray gun and spray long time (10-20m), it might dry up in the airbrush cup and you may need to add bit more thinner as you go, always sneak up on the adding/mixing with small amount.

If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to contact me, and good luck!

Thanks,
Sean

Whatever you use with Tamiya acrylics they seem to work best when very thin. Pretty much eliminates tip dry and clogging. If you're still getting tip dry, thin it some more. What ratio you use depends on your airbrush.

I sprayed a bunch of small parts today, all with Tamiya. There were a couple camo colors that I had already mixed with denatured alcohol, everything else I thinned with lacquer thinner. Worked fine but I'm not certain there is much difference from thinning with alcohol. Maybe with white. It was very thin but I had no problem with it. I added a little too much paint when shooting Nato Black and was getting tip dry but added a little thinner and all was well.

So yeh, it will work. I don't think lacquer thinner is magic but it may help with some colors. You just have to try it and find out for yourself. That's the secret, doing your own experiments.

Tony

EBergerud

If you're willing to use a mask, Tamiya plus lacquer thinner might be worth it - if you use their thinner or Mr. Color's. The smell is considerably less ugly which tells me that the stuff is watered down somehow. It hasn't done any damage to my kits yet, but I have some light plastic pipettes for drawing paint and Mr. Color thinner ate through one of those.You'd also have the advantage of using Tamiya with acrylic thinner when you think it will work well - that's got to be a lot of places.

All of this led to another thread: should people try Vallejo paints. Some folks give them very high marks (Life Color also has its fans) and it is water based. Wonder how folks do with some of the train paint acrylics like Pollyscale: they're also water based. It might be worth a little more trouble getting a smooth finish or a little more fragile finish to save your lungs some wear.

Eric

I switch up what I use to thin Tamiya depending on the job. I've found lacquer thinner works better if I'm dealing with larger jobs. Painting wings or such. If I'm just doing something small and don't have to fuss with tip dry, I'll use denatured or iso alcohol instead. It works for me, but of course YMMV.

As for Vallejo, I've used them with great success. They've become my paint of choice, since they work equally well brushed or airbrushed. They thin perfectly with Future (which also provides the "heft" to keep them from going watery) go down smooth, and, thanks to the Future, are actually pretty tough.

I also tried Lifecolor (started a thread somewhere here about it). Don't like it anywhere near as much. Despite repeated attempts and trying different thinning solutions (distilled water, Lifecolor thinner, Windex, Future, airbrush medium), I never got it to not spray like a giant watery mess. Very, very light misting coats were required, and one slip and you'd have a runny mess. It has a sweet spot, but it struck me as a very narrow one.

Despite what Adam (or anyone else) says, Tamiya's acrylics are without doubt an acrylic formulation. The fact that they can be thinned with alcohol or lacquer thinner does not alter the chemistry of the paint, which uses acrylic compounds in the binder. The fact that it can be thinned with lacquer thinner does not make it a lacquer.

One can thin some enamel paints with lacquer thinner - this does not magically convert the enamel into a lacquer, nor does using lacquer thinner with Tamiya's acrylics make them lacquers. It simply means that certain lacquer thinners like Tamiya's own or Gunze's, are compatible with the paint. 

Adam's techniques require many very thin glaze-like applications of paint to build depth in layers. As I said earlier in this thread, many people (especially if they are accustomed to using enamels, seem to under-thin their Tamiya acrylics,and apply from too great a distance which often leads to tip-dry and graininess. Tamiya's acrylics can be thinned far more than people realise,

 I often use mixes up to two parts Tamiya (acrylic) thinner to one part paint, If I move to denatured alcohol, I can push it even further and still get coverage. However, thinning at these rates means you have to adjust your technique. This means lowering your air pressure and getting closer to the subject.

I often see posts by people warning not to over-thin Tamiya acrylics otherwise the paint will dry in mid-air and case a pebbly finish. However, I have found the opposite and see a greater tendency to pebbling with under-thinned paint. it's my preference to run it very thin. Certainly if you are painting from 10-12 inches away at 25PSI or higher, "pebbling" is a possibility. Drop to 10-12PSI and paint from about 4 inches and you will see a world of difference. The paint will arrive wet and smooth. 

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone they should or shouldn't use lacquer thinner with Tamiya's paints, all I'm saying is that it's not the almighty panacea it's often made out to be and that by adjusting your technique, one can achieve comparable results without it.

This is a recent thread over at Promodeller. Armor modeler and MIG Productions guru Adam Wilder wrote an article claiming that Tamiya while technically acrylic functioned like lacquer and that lacquer thinner was essential for the kind of fine work required with the new armor modeling techniques. Several people were skeptical - Tamiya is one of the biggest producers in the world and has many fans. A year ago, Tamiya junkies in Euroland were in panic because Tamiya's acrylic thinner wasn't available for a while.

Well, Wilder was right. No question. I'm still sure that you can get good results from Tamiya using their acrylic thinner or some kind of ISA witches' brew - maybe even water. But if you want Tamiya to lay down like a good puppy, buy Tamiya lacquer thinner and use it on their acrylics. They sell it, in theory, to use with their lacquer spray cans. You can tell the difference because it has a yellow cap. (It also says "Lacquer thinner.") Mr. Color thinner will also work because, despite being called acrylic, Gunze Mr. Color are lacquers. And Mr. Color is a wonderful paint: great coverage and a very durable finish - almost like enamel. (Gunze has a lot of semi-gloss colors too: check if you want flat.)  Gunze will also take a lot of thinner. Wear a mask if you use it.

The down side is obvious. Lacquer thinner is tough stuff. I would not use hardware store lacquer thinner with paints - it can attack some plastics like a nuclear bomb. (It's fantastic for cleaning your airbrush though. Rare day when I get clogged anymore.) You really want good ventilation and a mask. Use a cleaning bowl if you use it for airbrush cleaning.

If you're willing to use a mask, Tamiya plus lacquer thinner might be worth it - if you use their thinner or Mr. Color's. The smell is considerably less ugly which tells me that the stuff is watered down somehow. It hasn't done any damage to my kits yet, but I have some light plastic pipettes for drawing paint and Mr. Color thinner ate through one of those.You'd also have the advantage of using Tamiya with acrylic thinner when you think it will work well - that's got to be a lot of places.

All of this led to another thread: should people try Vallejo paints. Some folks give them very high marks (Life Color also has its fans) and it is water based. Wonder how folks do with some of the train paint acrylics like Pollyscale: they're also water based. It might be worth a little more trouble getting a smooth finish or a little more fragile finish to save your lungs some wear.

Eric

Thanks guys, some really informative posts...  I definitly have some left- have a lot left.  I thik I'm gonna pick up some of Tamiya's Laquer thinner and give it a try...  thanks again!

Not to be a wiseguy but almost any other lacquer thinner is different from hardware store lacquer thinner. I'm no chemist and can't explain the differences but the stuff they sell at hardwares, WalMart and the like would barely qualify as tool cleaning grade thinner bought from a paint supplier. I know a lot of people use it and I have too but there's a world of difference between it and high grade thinner. Mostly because it dries so quickly. I haven't used Tamiya's lacquer thinner but have used Gunze's Mr Color and it's good so I imagine Tamiya's would be too. It's mild and basically equates to a slow drying thinner. If you buy automotive grade thinners you can get fast, medium or slow. Hardware store thinner would probably equal superfast drying. Can't give you the temperature equivilents but fast doesn't work very well unless it's pretty chilly(air temperature). Medium is kind of an all around but I think slow works best most any time with airbrushes and plastic.

Once I got used to Tamiya acrylics one of the things I like about them is, to me, their similarities to shooting lacquer. I can way over reduce and spray very light coats. Shade, build up colors, whatever. They aren't nearly as tough as lacquer though. I've seen several folks online claim that they reduce all the Tamiya acrylics they use with lacquer thinner. But obviously you never know what to believe out here. I decided to give it a try. Only did a couple of colors, lemon yellow and gloss white I think, but they did work very well with some medium temp DuPont auto thinner. Don't remember if I had any less paint build up in the tip or not and didn't really shoot enough to get tip dry so I can't say whether it worked any better than alcohol or not but it did work.

So, if you still have some and want to give them another try then do as the others suggested and thin it a lot more than you did before. If you have some lacquer thinner on hand it wouldn't hurt to try. The hardware store stuff works it just dries very quickly.

Tony

First, have to agree with Phil H. I usually thin my Tamiya paints around 2:1 and crank down the air pressure. The great thing about their paints versus others is that you can thin them to ridiculous amounts and they still won't go all watery on you.

Second, I use Tamiya's lacquer thinner to thin for bigger paint jobs. The difference between it and isopropyl or denatured alcohol is, in my opinion, night and day. It's more forgiving and, once you get your mix, pressure and distance figured out, it goes down ridiculously smooth.

I've actually ordered a bottle of Gunze's Mr. Leveling Thinner that I'm going to try as a substitute (in addition to its intended use of thinning Mr. Surfacer 1200 for priming). 

Third, I've read that Tamiya's thinner has a wetting agent of some sort in it...but yes, I've personally noticed a difference between it and the big $3 tins you can buy at the hardware store.

Mike, how much thinner are you using with your paint? From the description of your problems, it sounds like you're not thinning your paint enough, painting at too high an air pressure or both.

I think most problems that people have airbrushing Tamiya acrylics occur because they don't thin the paint enough. My personal preference is t go very thin (at least 2:1, sometimes more, thinner to paint). It may mean that you need to make a number of passes to achieve your desired colour depth, but I rarely have issues with "tip dry" or pebbly paint.

Having said that, I haven't used lacquer thinner with Tamiya acrylics. I believe that some generic lacquer thinners will work, but some won't. Also, Tamiya's lacquer thinner (and indeed Gunze's Mr Color thinner) are formulated for use with styrene models and are less aggressive (meaning they won't turn your model into a bubbling puddle of goo) than generic lacquer thinners.