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One "Bar" on Compressor = How much PSI?

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  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 1:22 AM

Hi Danny,

Yep, I've seen the reference to lacquer thinner on Tamiya's page before. Actually, I believe I first heard of it being an alternative thinner some time in the late 80's, so it's not a new thing.

EBergerud
(Someone on Promodeller found a citation from the Tamiya page confirming that their lacquer thinner is the better choice.)

The way I read the product information on Tamiya's paint page, it (Tamiya lacquer thinner) merely seems to be mentioned as an alternative thinner with an attribution to (unspecified) "expert modelers" finding it gives a  harder shell. I don't see that as any confirmation, suggestion or endorsement that lacquer thinner is a better choice. I will say that as mentioned above, the lacquer thinner seems to afford a longer dry-time compared to alcohol/alcohol based thinners, reducing the possibility of dusting or pebbling. However this can also be achieved by using a retarder, painting at lower air pressure and spraying closer to the surface being painted. It comes down to individual technique and methodology.

Hogzilla
the Modulation Technique sounds the so called "correct method" to paint a motor vehicle I was taught, which is; 2 transparent coats, 1 or 2 cover coats with a wait in between each coat to allow it to get tacky for good adhesion of the next coat to prevent runs and and lastly the final or ("money coat"). I have be using that method since I first bought my first airbrush (an unbreakable Badger 350) in the summer of 1977. I've found thinning Humbrol & Testor paints in the area of 1 part paint to 2 parts thinner at perhaps 10 to 15 psi as a starting point for transparent coats and adding paint the traditional 1:4 ratio thinning mix of 3 or 4 drops at a time for each coat until the final money coat is achieved. This is a work around to the coarse atomization of external mix airbrushes and gives a nice scale-like paint job.

Indeed, the best way to apply any sort of paint is to use mulripe thin applications, building up the required colour depth, and is my own personal preference, sometimes making 4-5 passes or more to achieve the desired coverage. Use of very thin coats also reduces the tendency of the paint to "soften" detail when applied too heavily.

However, the Modulation Technique is more an effect,  a variation on "post shading" rather than a basic application technique.  Colour Modulation, as I understand it, introduces varying shades of the base colour to create the appearance of shadows on a model. For this to be convincing, the transitions in shade have to be subtle, hence the need for very thin applications of near translucent paint.

Hogzilla
In early 1969 I was at MCRD - San Diego as a Marine recruit and one of my drill instructors said something to vugar to put here about how to increase survival odds in Vietnam. A translation would be "if you start to believe your any kind of expert in anything your survival odd go down and you might just die young - if your an observant learner your survival odd go up, then he ordered us to be observant learners for the rest of our &%#@$ing lives. So Please don't counsider anything I post as the final word on anything because I am no expert in anything and don't plan on becoming an expert eather.

Good advice indeed Big Smile I'm not claiming to be an expert either, I'm neither an industrial chemist nor a paint technologist, just someone who's been using Tamiya acrylic paints since they first came on the market in the early 80's. In fact, the whole lacquer thinner thing is fairly new to me, having only tried it in the last month or so. Traditionally, I've used (and still use) denatured alcohol as my thinner of choice, but I can see some advantages in the slower drying afforded by the use of laxquer thinner, particularly when using gloss paints.

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: Parker County, Texas
Posted by Hogzilla on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 12:02 AM

Hi keilau, EBergerud, Phil_H, Don & others who may read this, I recommend this program to quickly answer most all conversion problems; Universal Converter Version: 1.25 (Build 67.3) software program you can download at: http://noeld.com/updates.asp (the 15 psi answer is close enough - no point in showing the programs many decimal pointed answer).

Since some might wonder about Eric's "(Someone on Promodeller found a citation from the Tamiya page confirming that their lacquer thinner is the better choice.) and blow it off as an internet rumor the URL to that page is: http://www.tamiyausa.com/paints/  and will add a screen shot should this URL be revised.

On the front of Tamiya's paint bottles

at a glance you will notice its an "acrylic paint" - type not disclosed, and it is flammable. Modern polymer paints are puzzing to me, I know of only 3 types of polymer based paints; 1) acrylic enamel, 2) acrylic lacquer, both of which are flammable; the 3rd one is "aqueous" paint (think of latex house paint). An example of an acrylic polymer glue is Elmer's Glue, acrylic polymers are used to make concrete sealer (Mmmm makes me wonder about Future?), also acrylic polymers are used to make textiles too.

Not to be a show off and appear to be a smart-a_s,I would like to say as someone who first was taught the fundamentals about how to use one of these spray guns during the 2nd semester of my H.S. 1967 junior year attending a vocational/technical school body 

[Legendary Binks Number 7 Spray Gun]

shop class the Modulation Technique sounds the so called "correct method" to paint a motor vehicle I was taught, which is; 2 transparent coats, 1 or 2 cover coats with a wait in between each coat to allow it to get tacky for good adhesion of the next coat to prevent runs and and lastly the final or ("money coat"). I have be using that method since I first bought my first airbrush (an unbreakable Badger 350) in the summer of 1977. I've found thinning Humbrol & Testor paints in the area of 1 part paint to 2 parts thinner at perhaps 10 to 15 psi as a starting point for transparent coats and adding paint the traditional 1:4 ratio thinning mix of 3 or 4 drops at a time for each coat until the final money coat is achieved. This is a work around to the coarse atomization of external mix airbrushes and gives a nice scale-like paint job.

This is a link about thinning Tamiya Paint using PPG 876 Acrylic Lacquer Thinner, judging from the pictures came out with a rather nice finish on a 1/48 Ki-27 "Nate" http://agapemodels.com/?p=4506 

In early 1969 I was at MCRD - San Diego as a Marine recruit and one of my drill instructors said something to vugar to put here about how to increase survival odds in Vietnam. A translation would be "if you start to believe your any kind of expert in anything your survival odd go down and you might just die young - if your an observant learner your survival odd go up, then he ordered us to be observant learners for the rest of our &%#@$ing lives. So Please don't counsider anything I post as the final word on anything because I am no expert in anything and don't plan on becoming an expert eather. ~ Danny aka Hogilla

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Tuesday, November 9, 2010 3:27 PM

Thankee for the translation. On second look the Night Vision DVD on Modulation Technique (in a section called "ratios") does show a pressure gauge that has PSI inside bars: but it flashes quickly. Looks to me that Wilder was closer to 17 PSI but maybe "one bar" is approximate or maybe I don't see straight. Ball park anyway.

This issue first came up on the Promodeller forum, but there is no doubt that Wilder is right about Tamiya "acrylic" paints and lacquer thinner. Lacquer thinner (there is a "green "variety out there but not much of an improvement), has an obvious down side - definite mask time and it's a powerful solvent. (Sure is a fine airbrush cleaner.) But it also works better with Tamiya, at least the Tamiya and Gunze brands do, than Tamiya acrylic thinner. And Wilder's equation of 4:1 with lacquer thinner at about 15PSI with a HS .20 tip brush lays down a thin but very clean coat. (Someone on Promodeller found a citation from the Tamiya page confirming that their lacquer thinner is the better choice.) Obviously there are different ways to do things - right now it's very hard to find Tamiya acrylic thinner so someone uses it. Ironically the first piece by Wilder I read was from 2001 on armor weathering & painting and he recommends Tamiya acrylics at 3:2 paint/thinner.

But if you're willing to put up with the ugly, lacquer is better with Tamiya acrylics. The promodeller gurus came to more or less the same opinion after trying it out. (Wilder post was forwarded by one of the board's editors.) There is no doubt whatsoever that Gunze Mr. Color paints perform far better with lacquer thinner to the point that I don't think water would work at all with them.

This is good reason to look around the paint world. I've bought some vallejos which are very nice and some Xtracrylix which I haven't tried but have heard are quite similiar to Vallejo. (I do like those Euro eye-dropper bottles a lot: saves paint bigtime.) Also had okay results with Lifecolor - will do more with them before getting more though. My favorite Osprey author Gary Edmundson has nice things to say about Floquil Pollyscale acrylics. I did a KV-1 with them and liked them a lot. (I used the railroad modeler version: "engine black" is blacker than black. Neat.) Odd, when I started this hobby I swore I'd only work with primes. It was probably a good idea.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Tuesday, November 9, 2010 6:33 AM

Phil_H

 keilau:

Also, the 4 to 1 thinner to paint mix ratio seems to be quite extreme to me. If you are using Tamiya acrylic paint, lacquer thinner is a poor choice.

I perfer the Tamiya X-20A thinner for Tamiya Acrylic and a 1:1 ratio work most of the time.


Actually Tamiya acrylic holds up quite well at 4:1 thinner to paint.  I often use it that thin. At the extreme thinning ratios, Tamiya X-20A thinner is actually less effective, with a tendency to bead and run. I've found that denatured alcohol and Tamiya Lacquer thinner (either one) will allow you to mix the paint that thinly and still maintain usable coverage.

Tamiya lacquer thinner seems to extend the drying time too, compared to X-20A or Iso or denatured alcohol, arguably allowing you to lay down clean, ultra-thin glaze-like coats without dusting or pebbling.

 keilau:

I have never quite understand the colour modulation technique, but I did not see the 4:1 ratio thinning in the few
videos that I saw.

One of the tricks of using the modulation technique is layering the paint in very thin, almost translucent coats. That's the reasoning behind the seemingly high thinning ratios.

Phil,

Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, November 8, 2010 8:29 AM

keilau

 

 

 

The best pressure depends on the airbrush you use. 15 psi is fine for a gravity feed airbrush and you may need more for a bottom feed airbrush.

Actually, the 15 psi figure I use is for a bottom feed Badger. Never used a gravity feed so don't know about pressure for those.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Monday, November 8, 2010 5:34 AM

keilau

Also, the 4 to 1 thinner to paint mix ratio seems to be quite extreme to me. If you are using Tamiya acrylic paint, lacquer thinner is a poor choice.

I perfer the Tamiya X-20A thinner for Tamiya Acrylic and a 1:1 ratio work most of the time.


Actually Tamiya acrylic holds up quite well at 4:1 thinner to paint.  I often use it that thin. At the extreme thinning ratios, Tamiya X-20A thinner is actually less effective, with a tendency to bead and run. I've found that denatured alcohol and Tamiya Lacquer thinner (either one) will allow you to mix the paint that thinly and still maintain usable coverage.

Tamiya lacquer thinner seems to extend the drying time too, compared to X-20A or Iso or denatured alcohol, arguably allowing you to lay down clean, ultra-thin glaze-like coats without dusting or pebbling.

keilau

I have never quite understand the colour modulation technique, but I did not see the 4:1 ratio thinning in the few
videos that I saw.

One of the tricks of using the modulation technique is layering the paint in very thin, almost translucent coats. That's the reasoning behind the seemingly high thinning ratios.

 

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Sunday, November 7, 2010 6:54 PM

EBergerud

Watching a DVD from MIG about Modulation Technique. The guru, Adam Wilder, suggests using Tamiya paints thinned about 4:1 (lacquer thinner: paint) sprayed at "one bar" of air pressure. The film shows the pressure gauge on the compressor, but it's a Euro gadget and in metrics. My gauge is reactionary and lists PSI. Could someone translate? How many PSI makes a bar?

Eric

The best pressure depends on the airbrush you use. 15 psi is fine for a gravity feed airbrush and you may need more for a bottom feed airbrush. Also, the 4 to 1 thinner to paint mix ratio seems to be quite extreme to me. If you are using Tamiya acrylic paint, lacquer thinner is a poor choice.

I perfer the Tamiya X-20A thinner for Tamiya Acrylic and a 1:1 ratio work most of the time. I use the Iwata HP-CS and Harder & Sternbeck Revolution and found 20 to 25 psi work best. This is just regular modeling choice.

I have never quite understand the colour modulation technique, but I did not see the 4:1 ratio thinning in the few videos that I saw.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Sunday, November 7, 2010 10:51 AM

Phil_H

One Bar = One Atmosphere (ie. 1 x atmospheric pressure at sea level) = 100 Kilopascals  = 14.5 PSI

Which is about right. I use 15 psi on gloss paints, 20 on flats.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Sunday, November 7, 2010 1:10 AM

One Bar = One Atmosphere (ie. 1 x atmospheric pressure at sea level) = 100 Kilopascals  = 14.5 PSI

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
One "Bar" on Compressor = How much PSI?
Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, November 7, 2010 1:00 AM

Watching a DVD from MIG about Modulation Technique. The guru, Adam Wilder, suggests using Tamiya paints thinned about 4:1 (lacquer thinner: paint) sprayed at "one bar" of air pressure. The film shows the pressure gauge on the compressor, but it's a Euro gadget and in metrics. My gauge is reactionary and lists PSI. Could someone translate? How many PSI makes a bar?

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

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