I need some help with my Badger 200

Don, no need to apologize, I had made a statement that should have been clearer. Asking me to be clearer was appropriate in the given situation.

Smeagol, hopefully this thread helps the next person who gets confuzzled by overlapping product numbers.

Well, maybe by posting about it you saved someone else from having the same problem.  We live and learn.

Don

Thing is, I checked the Manual, and I found the part number, could only find 2 websites online that had that part, one required a 25$ minimum purchase for ordering.  So I went and bought the full head assemblies and it didnt specify what type of 200... and it was before I knew the type

I apologize for making a mountain out of a mole hill, guys.  I just saw a couple of statements that I thought needed clarifying.  And yes, I'm an old nerd and a stickler for details.

But back to the original subject,  I agree that it would have been clearer if Badger had changed the model number when they went to the new head.  However, they are not alone here.  If you order a replacement trigger for a Paasche VL, you better know which valve piston you have or it won't work.  And, if you own an Iwata Eclipse, there are two different needle chucking guides, and they aren't compatible.  So it always pays to check the manual.

Don

Don Wheeler

Bill,

You and Kei seem to be claiming that the new head design is inferior to the old design.  This is what I don't understand.  As you know, I don't have a 200NH, but I do have the older 200.  I also have the Patriot and Anthem with the same new design head as the 200NH.  The old 200 has a .5mm tip.  If I install .5mm tips in the Patriot and Anthem, they spray every bit as well as the old 200.  In fact, I believe I can do even finer lines.

The 200NH comes with a .76mm tip, the same one as is standard in the Anthem.  I assume the needle is also similar to the Anthem's dual taper needle.  This needle will produce a wider range of pattern, but not as fine a line as the .5mm.  I find this to be more suitable for general model painting.  I suspect that Badger felt the same way.  They still offer a version with the old .5mm head for those who need it.

This does not make the new design is inferior to the old, just different.  And, it has nothing to do with quality.  The new head is easier to clean, doesn't have a Teflon gasket to lose or need replacement, and doesn't require a wrench to tighten.  The larger tip will also be more forgiving when it comes to thinning paint.  I see it as an improvement for the average modeler, especially the beginner who is more likely to buy a single action airbrush.

Am I missing something?

Don

Don,

I only heard the comments on old style 200 vs. 200NH second hand at various forum and mistakenly thought that to be generally accepted. I have neither of them, nor the Badger 100 series.

I have only a Badger 105F Patriot with the "fine" needle. Even with this fine needle, the trigger control is sensitive compared to Iwata and H&S. I also heard that the 100/200 series fine is finer than the 105/155 fine, again, second handed.

You found the 0.75 mm medium nozzle more suitable than the 0.5 mm fine nozzle for general modeling. I found the Iwata 0.35 mm nozzle, long taper needle much more adaptable to modeling than the Patriot 0.5 mm fine. I cannot manage to finish more than 2-3 models a year and the quality is nowhere near yours. The preference for airbrush is entirely a personal choice for me, with no technical basis. Don't take my comment about the Badger too seriously.

Well, yes, to be precise (I keep forgetting I'm dealing with Engineering types ) yes, it's the double taper that causes the effect more than the tip, but that is intrinsic to the new head design, and so you get one with the other. I didn't say the quality was inferior, just that they didn't hit the target they aimed for. My point is that they came out with the new style to eliminate the need for needle and tip changes, and yet to achieve the same results as the old head, you need to change the needle and tip. They did eliminate the washer, but introduced the changing taper. Hardly an improvement in my eye. The replacements didn't replace the line they were intended to, which seems a failure to me. There are a lot of airbrush gurus who stick to the old system, like me (only the sticking part is like the gurus, I'm most certainly NOT a guru!).

Don't misunderstand me, they're fine airbrushes on their own. Had I started with the Anthem, I wouldn't know any different. For 99.99999% of us, they are more airbrush than we need.

You're right that the 200NH with the more precise needle adjustment is less prone to the WHOOPS issue, but you still have to deal with the transition from narrow to wider taper, which seems to be a good source of frustration. I supply enough of that on my own, and don't need a tool to help out with that!

You're right that even the older Badger needles have a tiny secondary taper, but that doesn't seem to come into play like the larger secondary taper of the NH head style.

You're also right that the Renegade line is more suited to fine art, than modeling, and yet fine lines is the specification that everyone is looking for when they choose to buy a modeling airbrush. Perhaps that is more to do with bragging rights than usability (I've certainly long thought so).

Bgrigg

 

 

 

Don, I'm heavily biased to the old "tried and true" system. When the NH style head came out, it was billed as an improvement that was supposed to do away with the need to change tips and needle sizes. The double taper on the needle was supposed to "do it all". And like most one size fits all, it didn't actually fit all sizes well. The transition between fine line and full bore output was very hair trigger for many people (ME!) and it didn't do the fine lines as well, so Badger brought out different tips and needles to achieve that goal. Since the design was supposed to eliminate that, I consider it a failure over the older system. In my mind, the older system may have had that pesky washer, and a wrench to tighten (though I never use mine, finger tight seems to work fine), but the fine did fine lines and the medium does medium lines, without the WHOOPS TOO MUCH PAINT! issue that people have reported on the NH style airbrushes (especially the 175 Crescendo, which was designed with the T-shirt artist in mind).

From the information that has been provided to me from numerous manufacturers (for that mythical airbrush guide that has been lost on my back burner for months!) the longer the taper, the finer the lines. The double taper of the NH head seems counter-productive to that goal. Now, as you say, the average modeler doesn't need that fine of a line and the Anthem, Patriot and 200NH are all decent airbrushes for that use. And with some practice one can achieve wondrous things, just as one can do with the venerable Paasche H. I'm an aging (not yet old) dog, and already I'm finding learning new things to be frustrating. I'll stick with the old fashioned ways.

I do note that when Badger brought out the Renegade line, they went back to a single long taper.

So, if I understand you correctly, it's not the head design that you feel is inferior, but the double tapered needle.  I haven't found it a problem with the 155, but I can understand how it could be.  Maybe because it was my first airbrush, and I learned with it.  It is difficult for me to see though how it could cause any problem in a single action brush like the 200NH where needle movement is a threaded adjustment.  But I admit I haven't tried one, so I may be missing something.

If fine lines are important, the 200NH, or for that matter the standard 155 or medium 175, are not the best choice.  I don't think that is their intended market though.  They are more general purpose, going from fairly fine (there's an example of the 155's capability on my site) to very broad coverage.  And, that broad coverage can be very nice when you're trying to put a nice smooth coat on a larger model.  Note that the double tapered needle only comes standard on siphon fed airbrushes.  (Actually, all the Badger needles I've seen have a tiny secondary taper on the end.  But, I won't count that.)

So, I don't agree that they are inferior or a failure.  I've seen many comments from people who are very happy with them.  And I certainly don't agree that they are of lower quality.

I don't think the Renegades with their finer tips are really general purpose, any more than the Sotar is.

Don

Don Wheeler

 

Bgrigg:

 

When they brought out the 155 Anthem (also 175 Crescendo) with the new head design with the two angle tip, there was a hue and cry from the single action crowd, so the 200NH was born. Meanwhile they still sell the old head design, as it remained the better system. Not all things new are great, good maybe, just not great. In retrospect, naming it the 205 or 255 would have been better.

 

 

Bill,

You and Kei seem to be claiming that the new head design is inferior to the old design.  This is what I don't understand.  As you know, I don't have a 200NH, but I do have the older 200.  I also have the Patriot and Anthem with the same new design head as the 200NH.  The old 200 has a .5mm tip.  If I install .5mm tips in the Patriot and Anthem, they spray every bit as well as the old 200.  In fact, I believe I can do even finer lines.

The 200NH comes with a .76mm tip, the same one as is standard in the Anthem.  I assume the needle is also similar to the Anthem's dual taper needle.  This needle will produce a wider range of pattern, but not as fine a line as the .5mm.  I find this to be more suitable for general model painting.  I suspect that Badger felt the same way.  They still offer a version with the old .5mm head for those who need it.

This does not make the new design is inferior to the old, just different.  And, it has nothing to do with quality.  The new head is easier to clean, doesn't have a Teflon gasket to lose or need replacement, and doesn't require a wrench to tighten.  The larger tip will also be more forgiving when it comes to thinning paint.  I see it as an improvement for the average modeler, especially the beginner who is more likely to buy a single action airbrush.

Am I missing something?

Don

Don, I'm heavily biased to the old "tried and true" system. When the NH style head came out, it was billed as an improvement that was supposed to do away with the need to change tips and needle sizes. The double taper on the needle was supposed to "do it all". And like most one size fits all, it didn't actually fit all sizes well. The transition between fine line and full bore output was very hair trigger for many people (ME!) and it didn't do the fine lines as well, so Badger brought out different tips and needles to achieve that goal. Since the design was supposed to eliminate that, I consider it a failure over the older system. In my mind, the older system may have had that pesky washer, and a wrench to tighten (though I never use mine, finger tight seems to work fine), but the fine did fine lines and the medium does medium lines, without the WHOOPS TOO MUCH PAINT! issue that people have reported on the NH style airbrushes (especially the 175 Crescendo, which was designed with the T-shirt artist in mind).

From the information that has been provided to me from numerous manufacturers (for that mythical airbrush guide that has been lost on my back burner for months!) the longer the taper, the finer the lines. The double taper of the NH head seems counter-productive to that goal. Now, as you say, the average modeler doesn't need that fine of a line and the Anthem, Patriot and 200NH are all decent airbrushes for that use. And with some practice one can achieve wondrous things, just as one can do with the venerable Paasche H. I'm an aging (not yet old) dog, and already I'm finding learning new things to be frustrating. I'll stick with the old fashioned ways.

I do note that when Badger brought out the Renegade line, they went back to a single long taper.

Well, the thing is, I decided to buy entire head assemblies, instead of the single part, which was part 41-004 'tip'

The Head Assembly said for Badger 200, it did not specify the specific model, nor the specific part numbers for all the pieces included in the assembly.

Bgrigg

When they brought out the 155 Anthem (also 175 Crescendo) with the new head design with the two angle tip, there was a hue and cry from the single action crowd, so the 200NH was born. Meanwhile they still sell the old head design, as it remained the better system. Not all things new are great, good maybe, just not great. In retrospect, naming it the 205 or 255 would have been better.

Bill,

You and Kei seem to be claiming that the new head design is inferior to the old design.  This is what I don't understand.  As you know, I don't have a 200NH, but I do have the older 200.  I also have the Patriot and Anthem with the same new design head as the 200NH.  The old 200 has a .5mm tip.  If I install .5mm tips in the Patriot and Anthem, they spray every bit as well as the old 200.  In fact, I believe I can do even finer lines.

The 200NH comes with a .76mm tip, the same one as is standard in the Anthem.  I assume the needle is also similar to the Anthem's dual taper needle.  This needle will produce a wider range of pattern, but not as fine a line as the .5mm.  I find this to be more suitable for general model painting.  I suspect that Badger felt the same way.  They still offer a version with the old .5mm head for those who need it.

This does not make the new design is inferior to the old, just different.  And, it has nothing to do with quality.  The new head is easier to clean, doesn't have a Teflon gasket to lose or need replacement, and doesn't require a wrench to tighten.  The larger tip will also be more forgiving when it comes to thinning paint.  I see it as an improvement for the average modeler, especially the beginner who is more likely to buy a single action airbrush.

Am I missing something?

Don

Phil_H

keilau:

Great Models uses the Badger parts numbers, but don't know what they are doing. When you click on their parts list for the Badger 200NH at their web site, it comes up with all the old style 200-20 parts. It is up to the user to know the parts number he needs before ordering. You will not find 200NH parts at the Great Models site. (Badger should not take the blame for GM who misled Smeagol.)

Remember that certain parts of the 200NH are common to a number of models and are not necessarily listed specifically for the 200NH as such.

You need to search for the part numbers on the exploded diagram in the user manual, but omit the "-" from the part number - eg.

Nozzle 41-004 - http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=BAD41004

Head 51-071 - http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=BAD51071

The parts are there, you just need to know what to look for.

I stand corrected about the GM parts stock. 100% agree with your suggestion.

I tried to tell Smeagol the same thing in my earlier post that he needed to know the parts number before ordering. One cannot order randomly and then blame the manufacturer. At least, he could have asked if the part he is about to order will fit his airbrush here.

keilau

Great Models uses the Badger parts numbers, but don't know what they are doing. When you click on their parts list for the Badger 200NH at their web site, it comes up with all the old style 200-20 parts. It is up to the user to know the parts number he needs before ordering. You will not find 200NH parts at the Great Models site. (Badger should not take the blame for GM who misled Smeagol.)

Remember that certain parts of the 200NH are common to a number of models and are not necessarily listed specifically for the 200NH as such.

You need to search for the part numbers on the exploded diagram in the user manual, but omit the "-" from the part number - eg.

Nozzle 41-004 - http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=BAD41004

Head 51-071 - http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=BAD51071

The parts are there, you just need to know what to look for.

Bgrigg

When they brought out the 155 Anthem (also 175 Crescendo) with the new head design with the two angle tip, there was a hue and cry from the single action crowd, so the 200NH was born. Meanwhile they still sell the old head design, as it remained the better system. Not all things new are great, good maybe, just not great.  In retrospect, naming it the 205 or 255 would have been better.

I remember reading something similar, but don't remember where. I thought it was fairly well recognized. Thank you for answering Don Wheeler's question. Any link?

Bgrigg

Smeagol (perhaps Gollum is more apt?), too bad you dealt with an online retailer rather than contacting Badger itself (which, I recall, advising you to do). Instead you bought the wrong part, and then malign Badger online. A more reputable airbrush dealer would have clearly specified, that the parts were for certain models. Luckily GM is a good retailer, and will likely refund your money. I hope you get it back together, it's a good airbrush.

Modeling shops usually charge a lot more for airbrush and parts, typically 10-15% off retail compared to the 30-50% off at airbrush specialist shops. Smeagol does not know what airbrush he has and will have a hard time figuring out what part to order from the webairbrushes.com menu. Smeagol can blame Badger for using similar model number for two airbrushes that have completely different head design.

Great Models uses the Badger parts numbers, but don't know what they are doing. When you click on their parts list for the Badger 200NH at their web site, it comes up with all the old style 200-20 parts. It is up to the user to know the parts number he needs before ordering. You will not find 200NH parts at the Great Models site. (Badger should not take the blame for GM who misled Smeagol.)

This is a separate question. For some Badger airbrushes, the manual and parts list have two needles. The "regular" and the Mobile Tech. What is the difference?

smeagol the vile

Actually, I contacted badger when it first happened.  They told me 'we do not sell parts'

 

And to that you gota be 2% smarter then the thing your working on.  Well, the parts said 200, the ad says 200, the AB says 200, the box says 200.  Hmmmmm I wonder... what model airbrush is it?

Odd that they just said that and not mentioned 1-888-4WYNWYN, or www.webairbrushes.com, which is their online associate. When I bought some airbrushes through their garage sale, they came with cards for Wyn-Wyn.

The model is the 200NH, as opposed to the other 200 airbrushes. It is confusing, I know. As mentioned, giving it a similar, but different, name would have helped you out.

Actually, I contacted badger when it first happened.  They told me 'we do not sell parts'

And to that you gota be 2% smarter then the thing your working on.  Well, the parts said 200, the ad says 200, the AB says 200, the box says 200.  Hmmmmm I wonder... what model airbrush is it?

Don Wheeler

 

keilau:

 

 

They probably know that the old style 200 is a higher quality airbrush that can do finer details. Old time Badger user will always want the old style 200-20 airbrush instead of the newer 200NH.

 

 

That's an interesting comment, Kei.  I've never heard that before, and I'm curious how you came to that conclusion.  I've never used the 200NH, so I don't know how it compares to the old 200.

I think they called it the 200NH because it's really the 200 with a New Head. But, it is a source of confusion, and I'm sure others have gotten the wrong replacement parts too.

Don

The original Badger were the 100 series (dual action, gravity feed), 150 series (dual action, siphon/bottom feed) and 200 (single action, available as both gravity or siphon/bottom feed). All 100/150/200 series share the same head, tip, washer, air valve and in the case of the 100/150, the spring assembly. In fact, the only difference between a 100 and a 150 is the body style, all other parts are interchangeable. The 200 has the same diameter needle, but the longer body design of the single action dictates a longer needle.

When they brought out the 155 Anthem (also 175 Crescendo) with the new head design with the two angle tip, there was a hue and cry from the single action crowd, so the 200NH was born. Meanwhile they still sell the old head design, as it remained the better system. Not all things new are great, good maybe, just not great. In retrospect, naming it the 205 or 255 would have been better.

Smeagol (perhaps Gollum is more apt?), too bad you dealt with an online retailer rather than contacting Badger itself (which, I recall, advising you to do). Instead you bought the wrong part, and then malign Badger online. A more reputable airbrush dealer would have clearly specified, that the parts were for certain models. Luckily GM is a good retailer, and will likely refund your money. I hope you get it back together, it's a good airbrush.

As for changing parts while maintaining a name. Better not try putting the dashboard from a 76 Camaro into a 2010 Camaro!

smeagol the vile

I know what part I need, found it online, and ordered it already. 

Its sort of deceitful to have multiple models with the number 200 but not specify on the parts which is whcih

 

Don't mean to be rude or anything, but sometimes "ya gotta be 2% smarter than the thing your working on."

DR

I know what part I need, found it online, and ordered it already. 

Its sort of deceitful to have multiple models with the number 200 but not specify on the parts which is whcih

keilau

 

They probably know that the old style 200 is a higher quality airbrush that can do finer details. Old time Badger user will always want the old style 200-20 airbrush instead of the newer 200NH.

That's an interesting comment, Kei.  I've never heard that before, and I'm curious how you came to that conclusion.  I've never used the 200NH, so I don't know how it compares to the old 200.

I think they called it the 200NH because it's really the 200 with a New Head. But, it is a source of confusion, and I'm sure others have gotten the wrong replacement parts too.

Don

smeagol the vile

I found another place that sells the parts.  I found the model number and ordered it, 10 bucks or so with shipping, which is alot but all together itd about that much for shipping and parts if I sent them my airbrush.

I got the parts from Great models, I already emailed them and asked for a refund.

From the picture, you seemed to have the Badger 200NH (new head) airbrush, but order the nozzle assembly for the old style Badger 200-20 airbrush.

Don Wheeler has a nice page that explains the difference. Worth a look. Do you know the Badger parts number you need and the ones that you received?.Badger seems to offer only the medium needle/nozzle for the 200NH. You will have to order separate parts according to your manual.

If you cannot figure out which part you may need, it is time to send the airbrush to Badger for repair.

I agreed with you that Badger should have given the 200NH airbrush a different new name. They probably know that the old style 200 is a higher quality airbrush that can do finer details. Old time Badger user will always want the old style 200-20 airbrush instead of the newer 200NH.

Yea, I know... I wasnt leaning, I was soaking it in simple green.  I forgot that piece was still in the tub when I dumped it.

I have since mdae a trap for the sink that I put in the drain every time I work near it.  Learn from your mistakes eh'.

I recommend that the OP purchase your airbrush from an airbrush retailer rather than a modeling company.  One reason that airbrush retailers offer superior support is that their employees have a higher chance of actually using the same airbrushes themselves.

Oh.. and don't lean over the sink while cleaning one's airbrushes. 

I found another place that sells the parts.  I found the model number and ordered it, 10 bucks or so with shipping, which is alot but all together itd about that much for shipping and parts if I sent them my airbrush.

I got the parts from Great models, I already emailed them and asked for a refund.

smeagol the vile

It would seem after closer inspection and research that Badger is an A**hole of a company.

they have 3 different types of Badger 200 airbrushed.  200NH 200S and 200SG or something like that... but

ALL of the parts just say for badger 200.

Don't know where your get your Badger parts from. If the vendor did not list the parts number, it is their fault.

If you go to webairbrushes.com, which is like Badger's retail arm, you will find that they list the parts for the different 200's separately and include the parts number for each item.

If you did not order the parts number as shown in your Badger 200 user's manual, it is your fault. Do you know what parts number you need? Did you check the invoice if the seller sent you the correct parts? If you order parts randomly the first place, you cannot blame Badger.

I am not a big Badger fan, but fair is fair. Why didn't you just send the airbrush in to Badger for repair? The guarantee is life time and you will be charge for the parts only.

Sorry to hear that - I don't suppose there is an adaptor piece available?

It would seem after closer inspection and research that Badger is an A**hole of a company.

they have 3 different types of Badger 200 airbrushed.  200NH 200S and 200SG or something like that... but

ALL of the parts just say for badger 200.