A couple airbrush and compressor questions

Don Wheeler

We've kind of gotten off subject, haven't we.

Don

Yes, we are now. Both you and I were trying to answer Chris' question on airhose connection and leaks to help him out until we got sidetracked.

keilau

 

I just noticed that Iwata, Harder & Steenbeck, Neo for Iwata and two made-in-China knock-offs all have single taper needles. Do most airbrush guru perfer single or double taper needle?

If you look closely at the picture of the needle in my review of the Master G-22, you can see that it has a secondary taper.  I even mention it.  So does the needle in the Harbor Freight airbrush, although it is harder to see.  Both are made in China.

Sorry, I have no idea which type needle is preferred by airbrush gurus.

We've kind of gotten off subject, haven't we.

Don

Don Wheeler

keilau:

One thing that don't like about the Badger needle is the fact that they chop off the 20% of the tip and make the taper into a dual cone. Don Wheeler suspects that they do it to protect the needle and doesn't believe it makes any difference. But I will rather have a straight taper on the needle. I don't really believe that one needs to micro polish the needle, but a discolored looking needle just doesn't look good and can make it more difficult to clean. I saw that in my Patriot needle and Don Wheeler reported similar observation. http://airbrushtips.110mb.com/Renegade%20Rage.html

 Don Wheeler is well respected reviewer on airbrush around here. I highly respect his opinion.

 

Kei Lau,

That discolored needle was from an older used Badger 200 with an unknown history.  Who knows what it's been through?  Please get the details right.

I have seen only two Badger needles in person and they are the fine needles that come with my Patriot. They are brand new and have a greyish, grainy finish that is very different from other airbrush needle I have. The taper angle (or linear flow angle) is larger than any other airbrushes I have. I wonder what other Badger needles such as from Renegade or Sotar may look like.

I am sorry that I missed that the Badger 200 needle was an old, used one of unknown history.

Don Wheeler

The double taper comment was just a guess on my part.  It's actually a little more trouble to produce than a straight taper, so I assume it provides some advantage.

Don

The double taper of the Badger Patriot needle is fact. How it may affect the airbrush performance is just an opinion. Do the Renegade and Sotar needle have double taper too? How does Badger define the linear flow angle on a double taper needle?

I just noticed that Iwata, Harder & Steenbeck, Neo for Iwata and two made-in-China knock-offs all have single taper needles. Do most airbrush guru perfer single or double taper needle?

Don Wheeler

Marine Sniper:

 

 

I used to be called the airbrush "guru" on here years ago as well but aparently my opinion matters little any longer. 

 

Mike,

You're still the guru in my opinion.  You actually know how to use the thing.  I just enjoy taking them apart.

Don

Thank You for the kind words Don but I don't consider myself a guru. That title would belong to Ken at Badger and a couple of others I know who have forgotten more than I know.

Marine Sniper

 

 

I used to be called the airbrush "guru" on here years ago as well but aparently my opinion matters little any longer. 

Mike,

You're still the guru in my opinion.  You actually know how to use the thing.  I just enjoy taking them apart.

Don

keilau

 

One thing that don't like about the Badger needle is the fact that they chop off the 20% of the tip and make the taper into a dual cone. Don Wheeler suspects that they do it to protect the needle and doesn't believe it makes any difference. But I will rather have a straight taper on the needle. I don't really believe that one needs to micro polish the needle, but a discolored looking needle just doesn't look good and can make it more difficult to clean. I saw that in my Patriot needle and Don Wheeler reported similar observation. http://airbrushtips.110mb.com/Renegade%20Rage.html

 Don Wheeler is well respected reviewer on airbrush around here. I highly respect his opinion.

Kei Lau,

That discolored needle was from an older used Badger 200 with an unknown history.  Who knows what it's been through?  Please get the details right.

The double taper comment was just a guess on my part.  It's actually a little more trouble to produce than a straight taper, so I assume it provides some advantage.

Don

keilau

Marine Sniper:

keilau:

The HP-CS and Patriot is NOT even close in term of atomization and trigger operation. I also

Well you know what they say about opinions.

 

Check out this thread for more opinion on Badger vs. Iwata. There are opinion based on facts and those based on wishful thinking.

One thing that don't like about the Badger needle is the fact that they chop off the 20% of the tip and make the taper into a dual cone. Don Wheeler suspects that they do it to protect the needle and doesn't believe it makes any difference. But I will rather have a straight taper on the needle. I don't really believe that one needs to micro polish the needle, but a discolored looking needle just doesn't look good and can make it more difficult to clean. I saw that in my Patriot needle and Don Wheeler reported similar observation. http://airbrushtips.110mb.com/Renegade%20Rage.html

 

Why don't you ask Ken Schlotfeldt himself if you want to know why the airbrush has a double taper?

End of my input to this issue.

Until the next time. You engineers overthink things too much.

Don Wheeler is well respected reviewer on airbrush around here. I highly respect his opinion.

I used to be called the airbrush "guru" on here years ago as well but aparently my opinion matters little any longer. 

Marine Sniper

keilau:

The HP-CS and Patriot is NOT even close in term of atomization and trigger operation. I also

Well you know what they say about opinions.

Check out this thread for more opinion on Badger vs. Iwata. There are opinion based on facts and those based on wishful thinking.

One thing that don't like about the Badger needle is the fact that they chop off the 20% of the tip and make the taper into a dual cone. Don Wheeler suspects that they do it to protect the needle and doesn't believe it makes any difference. But I will rather have a straight taper on the needle. I don't really believe that one needs to micro polish the needle, but a discolored looking needle just doesn't look good and can make it more difficult to clean. I saw that in my Patriot needle and Don Wheeler reported similar observation. http://airbrushtips.110mb.com/Renegade%20Rage.html

 Don Wheeler is well respected reviewer on airbrush around here. I highly respect his opinion.

End of my input to this issue.

Coffee break's over boys, back on your heads...

Tony

That's cool Brickshooter as it's whatever works best for each individual.

I have the Sotar, Velocity and twelve other Badger and T&C airbrushes.

Mike,

It's easier to point the Sotar.  I can use more wrist to go around small angles.   I think it's because the weight is on the ends of the Velocity, but you have to be more careful when using your wrist when spraying with the Velocity.  The Sotar is more of an extension of your hand rather than a piece of metal in your hand.

The trigger on the Sotar is far more responsive.  And more importantly, it's far more consistent.  I could control air with the trigger. Can't dot that with the Velocity.  I tried polishing the Velocity trigger several times.  But after some use, there's still a little catch as though the tigger didn't fit the brush as well.    With the Velocity, it's more of an "all or nothing pull."     I could really play with the Sotar trigger.

It's also easier to do a pencil line with zero overspray.  And if I do it on the Velocity, I need to really get close to the surface.  With the Sotar, I could do it 1 inch from the model.  This is important because I need to see where I'm spraying without the brush blocking my view.  And when drawing the outlines to a camo, it comes out smoother.

Speaking of which, not only is the cup smaller so I can see over it on the Sotar, it's a better design.   Paint flows into the brush better. When paint gets low and I'm spraying at odd angles, the curve of the Velocity cup sometimes catches the paint rather than spray it.  With the Sotar, if there's paint left, it's getting spraid.

We can dance around statistics, numbers and testimonies forever.  But  all I know is that when I'm doing details, I put down the Velocity.  And I pick up the Sotar because  I trust it more.

Since the Badger Velocity and the Micron were both mentioned I thought this short part of a post from an airbrush forum sums up what I have been saying:

I have the Extreme set which come with all 3 brushes. Velocity, Spirit and the Rage. So far I have tried the Velocity and I was amazed that it shoots very nice. It can pull a hair line just as good as my Micron C.

brickshooter

 

Marine Sniper:

 

 

brickshooter:

IMO

Badger Velocity = Iwata HP-C.

Badger Sotar = Iwata Micron.

 

 

The Velocity with the fine tip/needle is in the same category as the SOTAR.

 

 

The Velocity is my general purpose brush.

But once I move into detailed work, the Sotar is clearly better.

 

The Velocity with the fine needle? What makes you think the Sotar is clearly better? Just curious.

Milairjunkie

 

 

 

 

I don't for one second doubt what you say about the quality of Badgers customer service,  there have been plenty here that have commented on it, however can you really say that it is unequaled?

Yes I can say it is unequaled because it is.

I could tell you things about Badger that Media doesn't do very often if at all.

Marine Sniper

brickshooter:

IMO

Badger Velocity = Iwata HP-C.

Badger Sotar = Iwata Micron.

 

The Velocity with the fine tip/needle is in the same category as the SOTAR.

The Velocity is my general purpose brush.

But once I move into detailed work, the Sotar is clearly better.

Marine Sniper

Customer service? Badger's customer service is unequaled. I am not sure what you are referring to but Ken Schlotfeldt takes care of people better than any airbrush company period and he is the owner and a personal friend!

I don't for one second doubt what you say about the quality of Badgers customer service,  there have been plenty here that have commented on it, however can you really say that it is unequaled?

For example, I seem to recollect someone recently mentioned on this forum the quality of customer service that they had received from Iwata. They received prompt, personal service & were more than fairly compensated for their issue. I should mention that I am in now way an Iwata proponent.

Marine Sniper

cbaginski:

Lastly, I havent been impressed with the amount of information Badger has available, nor with their customer service.  

 

Customer service? Badger's customer service is unequaled. I am not sure what you are referring to but Ken Schlotfeldt takes care of people better than any airbrush company period and he is the owner and a personal friend!

Mike

You and I disagree on a topic or two...

But this is something we are in complete agreement with. And I am NOT a friend of Ken's, but I have gotten SUPERB, absolutely SUPERB, customer service from Badger any time I have needed it. That is a company that knows customer service, at least in my experience.

brickshooter

IMO

Badger Velocity = Iwata HP-C.

Badger Sotar = Iwata Micron.

 

The Velocity with the fine tip/needle is in the same category as the SOTAR.

cbaginski

Lastly, I havent been impressed with the amount of information Badger has available, nor with their customer service.  

 

Customer service? Badger's customer service is unequaled. I am not sure what you are referring to but Ken Schlotfeldt takes care of people better than any airbrush company period and he is the owner and a personal friend!

keilau

Mark Stanton wrote one of the most distributed modelling book. Check the reviews at Amazon yourself. He is a Captain with Emirates Airlines in profession. Writing a book like his before you mock him.

I am not mocking him I am saying his opinion means nothing to me as I can actually get info from the horses mouth so to speak as I know some of the top people in the airbrushing industry personally. Anyone can write a book and claim to have all the answers.

I found his book most helpful and well written. May be that I am a beginner modeler.

I am not so therein lies the difference.

If you prefer Iwata over Badger that's fine but lets not steer the uninformed to another brand in hopes that it will make them a better airbrush user as that is false. Practice, practice, practice and the brand will make little difference other than personal preference.

IMO

Badger Velocity = Iwata HP-C.

Badger Sotar = Iwata Micron.

And yes, I've sprayed with all of them before.     I went with the Badgers AB because parts were reasonably priced.   I did go with the Iwata compressors so I'm not bias for an American products. 

keilau

 

The choice of airbrush is very personal. It is always advisable to hold on and try the trigger in your hand before deciding. I hope that you can find a supplier of the Harder & Steenbeck nearby in your area too.

That's another manufacturer I've had my eye on.

I've attended a couple workshops from the miniature painter Mathieu Fontaine - http://www.akaranseth.com/category/blog - I admire his work quite a bit and he extolls the virtues of the Harder & Steenbeck. 

Marine Sniper

 

keilau:

 

The HP-CS and Patriot is NOT even close in term of atomization and trigger operation. I also

 

 

Well you know what they say about opinions.

How well an airbrush atomizes and the range and smoothness of its trigger are objective measures, not subjective as you implied.

Marine Sniper

remember reading the book "Scale Aircraft Modelling" (The Crowood Press 2002, ISBN 1861264453) where Mark Stanton described his experience switching from the 100LG to HP-CS (pg. 52-56). Mark obviously did not consider the HP-CS to be close to the 100LG either and call the CS the "Rolls-Royce" airbrush.

 

Who is Mark Stanton and why should I believe him?

Mark Stanton wrote one of the most distributed modelling book. Check the reviews at Amazon yourself. He is a Captain with Emirates Airlines in profession. Writing a book like his before you mock him.

I found his book most helpful and well written. May be that I am a beginner modeler.

cbaginski

For starters, American-made means nothing to me - I'm in Canada, so all these airbrushes are foreign-made to me; all I care about is what will be doing the better job.

More importantly, up here in Toronto the only big place that carries Badger equipment is Micheal's, and their selection of stock is quite inferior - and coupled with that, they dont have any staff knowledgeable about airbrushes. Iwata and Paasche, however, are sold by the big art supply stores, so I will have access to a greater selection of parts/accessories and (hopefully) educated staff.

 

The choice of airbrush is very personal. It is always advisable to hold on and try the trigger in your hand before deciding. I hope that you can find a supplier of the Harder & Steenbeck nearby in your area too.

holy moley... and I thought Mac vs. PC wars were intense!

Well, thank you, everyone, for the spirited conversation - the input has been invaluable!

I have actually decided that I will be switching over to Iwata in a few months, for a couple reasons:

For starters, American-made means nothing to me - I'm in Canada, so all these airbrushes are foreign-made to me; all I care about is what will be doing the better job.

More importantly, up here in Toronto the only big place that carries Badger equipment is Micheal's, and their selection of stock is quite inferior - and coupled with that, they dont have any staff knowledgeable about airbrushes. Iwata and Paasche, however, are sold by the big art supply stores, so I will have access to a greater selection of parts/accessories and (hopefully) educated staff.

Lastly, I havent been impressed with the amount of information Badger has available, nor with their customer service. A quick trip over to Iwata provided me with an absolute wealth of articles and tips. Badger doesnt seem to have a fraction of the information Iwata provides. As a novice airbrush user, service and support counts for alot.

Thanks again everyone!

keilau

The HP-CS and Patriot is NOT even close in term of atomization and trigger operation. I also

Well you know what they say about opinions.

remember reading the book "Scale Aircraft Modelling" (The Crowood Press 2002, ISBN 1861264453) where Mark Stanton described his experience switching from the 100LG to HP-CS (pg. 52-56). Mark obviously did not consider the HP-CS to be close to the 100LG either and call the CS the "Rolls-Royce" airbrush.

Who is Mark Stanton and why should I believe him?

This subject cracks me up and we have gone round and round on this.

denstore

Have you tried them both? Renegade and Micron that is?

No I have not as I will never pay Iwata's outrageous price to try a Micron.

When I said the Renegade was in the same league as the Micron I am going by what I have heard from automotive airbrush artists as well as info from those who designed the renegade.

I havn´t owned the Patriot. I have had several Badgers though. I recently got the Velocity Renegade. I've had the HP-CS for more than 10 years. I've also at different points owned most of the Iwatas. I have several Microns at the moment. Only one Iwata, since I prefere the Olympos Microns.

I wouldn't like to start a "war" either. But I would definitly not put the Velocity on the same level as the Microns. Maybe on the same level as the H&S Evolution, which is usually considered a very good airbrush. Which one would I prefere? Probably the Velocity. I've never liked the H&S triggers.

Is the Velocity a good airbrush? Sure it is. In my honest opinion it's a definite step up for Badger, and a very good detailer at that price. But it is still "raw" in the feel compared to many other. The trigger is a lot better than the other Badgers I've tried, and I could defintly recommend it to people who wants a detail airbrush at a good price. I would say that it is a good alternative to the Iwata HP-C+, HP-CH or the H&S Evolution and Infinity. And looking at what price Badger has choosen to market it for, I would say that it is their own thoughts as well. 

Marine Sniper

 

keilau:

 I know the difference between the HP-CS and the Patriot because I have both. I hope someone else has both a Renegade and the HP-CS can describe the difference too. 

 

The Renegade is in the class of the Micron not the Eclipse.

I had an HP-CS at one time as well and it performed almost exactly the same as the Patriot and the 100LG in terms of atomization, etc. YMMV.

denstore

Have you tried them both? Renegade and Micron that is?

I don't know about Mike. I have neither the Micron nor the Renegade. I do not have the Badger 100LG either.

The HP-CS and Patriot is NOT even close in term of atomization and trigger operation. I also remember reading the book "Scale Aircraft Modelling" (The Crowood Press 2002, ISBN 1861264453) where Mark Stanton described his experience switching from the 100LG to HP-CS (pg. 52-56). Mark obviously did not consider the HP-CS to be close to the 100LG either and call the CS the "Rolls-Royce" airbrush.

I have the Badger Patriot, Iwata HP-CS and the Harder & Steenbeck Evolution Silverline. I may not have the skill to do free hand camo with any of them. But I can tell their differences in use. The Iwata and H&S are just head and shoulder above the Badger. (Comment applied to the 3 AB I have only, not other models.)

I don't mean to start another airbrush war. It is just the honest description of one person's experience.