primer to use with airbrush

mgh

Interesting about the Windex attacking the paint, maybe it is time for me to experiment with some different thinners.  

This is something I would like to experiment with as well.

Yes Windex is normally used for cleaning the airbrush, not as a thinning agent, but so is Isopropyl alcohol for that matter or any other thinning agent. I am no chemist so I don't know the differences in ammonia and alcohol as far as attacking the paint goes.

Still have not managed to find any model acrylic primer locally.  I did some experimenting with no primer, with gray rattle-can primer, and even mixed up some hardware store latex primer.  No question in my mind that the rattle-can primer was most effective.  After carefully wiping down the model with rubbing alcohol, spraying the acrylic straight on with no primer appeared to work, though the only test I did was to stick some blue masking tape on it after a couple of days cure time.  I will say that I thought it was a little more difficult to airbrush with no primer; I thought it took a little more care and patience, building up thin coats.

If I ever decide to make an internet order for supplies, I will order some Tamiya acrylic primer and see what kind of luck I have with that.  It's either than or try to fashion a DIY paint booth, but I am trying to tame my spending on supplies.  I only came back to the hobby last May, and it is truly frightening the amount of money I have spent on supplies, kits have been a minor expense in comparison (but then my 'stash' totals 7 kits still untouched). 

At any rate, I appreciate the help here, and thought I would post an update.

mgh

Interesting about the Windex attacking the paint, maybe it is time for me to experiment with some different thinners.  I have only been airbrushing for a little while, and when I first began, I think I tried using windshield washer fluid, but not with great success.

Other thinning suggestions?  Keeping in mind that I am spraying indoors, which limits me to acrylics.  

 I am just about ready to prime an A-10, which is one of the main reasons I am looking for a primer I can airbrush, it has so many nooks and crannies to try to get into.  I have carried pieces outside in the past and rattle-canned them with primer, but difficult to get a decent even coat (for me) when working with odd shapes. Unfortunately I have had to put the model on hold for the last week or so, but hope to get it at least primed over the weekend.

Thanks for the help here. 

I'm with ya on rattlecanning. Even with the really good spray heads I feel like it's a bear to control. It's a hammer when you need tweezers.

As for other thinners, I've had great luck with Testors' universal acrylic thinner. In fact, it's what I use now for both Lifecolor and Vallejo. Not entirely convinced as to durability, but it sure makes them spray well and alleviates most tip-dry issues.

Just...whatever you do...beware of thinning with alcohol-based stuff. It can work great on some acrylics, but it can cause others to clump badly and really mess up your airbrush.

Interesting about the Windex attacking the paint, maybe it is time for me to experiment with some different thinners.  I have only been airbrushing for a little while, and when I first began, I think I tried using windshield washer fluid, but not with great success.

Other thinning suggestions?  Keeping in mind that I am spraying indoors, which limits me to acrylics.  

 I am just about ready to prime an A-10, which is one of the main reasons I am looking for a primer I can airbrush, it has so many nooks and crannies to try to get into.  I have carried pieces outside in the past and rattle-canned them with primer, but difficult to get a decent even coat (for me) when working with odd shapes. Unfortunately I have had to put the model on hold for the last week or so, but hope to get it at least primed over the weekend.

Thanks for the help here. 

I didn't mean that I can use Future as a thinner and then spray without a primer coat first

I am a firm believer in using a primer,,,,,it's the only way I can get LifeColor to adhere to plastic,,,and I need something to cover up the putty from my "modeling skill", lol

the Future should work the same with the tube Acrylics as with the Folk Arts,,,,just make sure to only use it for part of your thinner, it won't evaporate, too much could leave you with not enough opacity

I did just think of something for a cheaper primer, though

Future mixed with Tamiya Flat Base,,,,,,after dipping a canopy, the paint sticks well enough to the Future coating,,,,,maybe mixing a few drops of white in with Future and Flat base will give an Acrylic mixture that adheres well to the model, and has "tooth" for the color coats

Doog, you have a point about different results for each person,,,,,I watched the owner of my LHS brushpaint Model Master Acrylics directly from the bottle onto his model, without a primer at all,,,,I sort of winced when I saw it,,,,the next week, the model was decaled and setting on display with his others in the case,,,,,,no way I would try that

Wow. This thread is definitely a testament to the idea that what works for some doesn't work for others, and vice-versa. Using Lifecolor without a primer? Last time I tried that I may as well have been misting the plastic with water. Over primer and, better yet, over a misted coat of itself, it goes down great.

Personally, I fall in the "always prime" camp. First because I do believe it's better for paint adhesion. Second, it helps me spot flaws I need to fix. And third, it hides the nastiness of putty, any mixed media going on, etc, and provides a uniform base from which to paint.

If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to pick just one primer (that's a humorous scenario, isn't it?), I'd have to say Model Master gray enamel primer. And that's having used Tamiya's stuff, Mr. Surfacer, Alclad surface primer...the MM primer has always been consistent and consistently great.

mgh

I have not tried thinning with Future.  What I am using for paint is artists acrylics in tubes, not the craft paint (though I do use a flat black craft paint for some detail work).  I typically thin it with Windex.

Are you suggesting I could thin my paint with Future and forgo the priming all together?

Thanks for the reply!

The problem with thinning with windex is that the ammonia in the windex actually attacks the paint (what makes it such an effective cleaner) with (at least to me) unknown results for its adhesion and durability.

Can't speak for artist acrylics, but I've thinned Vallejo rather successfully with Future. Sprays pretty well, unless you're trying to go ultrafine with, say, mottling camo or something. Dries to a smooth, rather durable finish. I've experienced no paint lift on the two builds I've tried it on (save for the canopy frames of the Dauntless, but I blame that on the Lifecolor interior green, since it lifted away and the Vallejo was just along for the ride). BUT...they were primed. 

I have not tried thinning with Future.  What I am using for paint is artists acrylics in tubes, not the craft paint (though I do use a flat black craft paint for some detail work).  I typically thin it with Windex.

Are you suggesting I could thin my paint with Future and forgo the priming all together?

Thanks for the reply!

there are some tricks you can experiment with to get those craft store paints to adhere better

you can mix a little Future in with the paints themselves, you have to thin them anyway to brush or spray them, a little bit of flow extender might help you out, too,,,,,I use Anita's, from the Hobby Lobby

LifeColor, Floquil PolyScale Railroad, and Model Master Acrylic all have a primer

the main thing is to remember that the Folk Art, Americana, and Apple Barrel paints practically insist on a rough surface to adhere to,,,,,,when I starting playing with them, they always peeled with any masking if the paint underneath was the slightest bit glossy

I know why you are using them,,,,it is hard to beat a 2 oz bottle of paint, even if you have to buy a 1oz (Floquil RR) or 3/4 oz (Lifecolor) of primer in order to use them

my "A-List" of primer and paints is LifeColor primer, a bit of Anita's in the paint (or LiquidTex Flow Aid if you can find it), and I use the same brand of primer as the paint to thin with

I hope this gives you some help with your experiments

Rex

I have tried MM Acryl Grey primer mixed with flat clear in a 2:1 primer to flat clear, and the adhesion improves dramatically. It also helps if the model is lightly sanded (super fine grit) and cleaned with alcohol prior to aplying the acrylic primer.

I don't have a lot of experience with air brushing or priming, but I thought I would comment on this post.

I have been sucessfull with spraying acrylic paint without using primers.  I have used Tamiya, Model Masters and Gunze acryilcs with success on both plastic and resin.  However, I have noticed that it does take a lot of paint to get good coverage and the finish is delicate, but looks great.

My current project, I decided to try to use primer.  I going to try to use Mr. Surfacer 1200 thinned with Hone Depot Lacquer Thinner almost 2:1 and shot at 12-14psi.  You can see my post in this forum on my questions about using Mr. Surfacer 1200

I did a small test last night on some resin parts and the primer left a very nice surface to paint on.  I practiced on some sheet stryene and if applied too thickly too quickly at a higher pressure 18-20psi, it does grain up.,  But when I turned down the pressure, thinned a little more and sprayed very light coats, it left a perfect finish to paint on.  I am going to shoot some color tonight to see how it works once painted.

It was a small test on resin cockpit sidewalls, gun bays and jet nozzle.  I am going to paint a few colors tonight to see how it looks with different colors and paint.  Plan  to paint MM Green Cromate flat acrylic, Tamiya Medium gray flat acryilc and MM gloss black enamal (as a base coat for some ACLAD2)

I will try to post some before and after pics and let you know how it turns out.

Hopefully, one beginner (me) and make some mistakes and help you out!

John

RESlusher

I've heard Mr. Surfacer 1200 does work well as a primer; but I still prefer the $1 a can ColorPlace (formerly DupliColor brand) primer in rattle-cans from Wally-World.

Just my though...

randypandy831

 

NervousEnergy:

 

Acrylics don't really need a primer on plastic models, though I've heard a few such as Lifecolor may have some problems adhering without it.  Acrylics made for models such as MM Acryl, Vallejo, Tamiya, etc. generally stick just fine.  Prep the model surface by washing the plastic to get of any mold release agents and spray away.  The first two models I did coming back to the hobby were done with Vallejo Model Air without a primer, and went on perfectly in terms of coverage (thinning them down enough for fine mottled camo was a different story...)  I was able to mask with Tamiya tape an hour after spraying with no pullup.

If you need to spray a base coat to check for rough spots and provide color consistency then just use a neutral color from whatever acrylic line you're spraying. 

 

 

 

MM acrylics are useless without a prime. they have no bite. even tamiya's masking tape can rip it up.

Absolutely a different and positive experience with MM Acryl without priming. For the record, no parts washing whatsoever, just a surface clean with paper towel quite wet with alcohol.

NervousEnergy

Acrylics don't really need a primer on plastic models, though I've heard a few such as Lifecolor may have some problems adhering without it.  Acrylics made for models such as MM Acryl, Vallejo, Tamiya, etc. generally stick just fine.  Prep the model surface by washing the plastic to get of any mold release agents and spray away.  The first two models I did coming back to the hobby were done with Vallejo Model Air without a primer, and went on perfectly in terms of coverage (thinning them down enough for fine mottled camo was a different story...)  I was able to mask with Tamiya tape an hour after spraying with no pullup.

If you need to spray a base coat to check for rough spots and provide color consistency then just use a neutral color from whatever acrylic line you're spraying. 

MM acrylics are useless without a prime. they have no bite. even tamiya's masking tape can rip it up.

mgh: Model Master Acryl has its own primer, it does work but priming is something I seldom do. Sometimes I might apply a base color close to the final color. That base is paint that has a bit left in the jar, a good way to finish it. I don't want a 12 jars with a few drops of paint left if you know what I mean.

Model Master Acryl Primer

GreenThumb

Just before painting I will scuff the plastic some with a Scotchbrite pad like you scour pots and pans with and then wipe the pieces with Poly S Plastic Prep or use 91% Isopropyl alcohol on a lint free rag. blow it off with some air from the airbrush and don't touch it with your bare hands and paint away.

I don't prime as often as I do & I can't say that I've ever had any adhesion problems. Like mike says, wiping down immediately before painting is crucial - a greasy finger/handprint can make the difference between your top coat adhering well or not so well.

Set up for painting, wipe the kit  down with a strong solvent (obviously not strong enough to melt styrene - mild acetone, methylated spirits, IP....) while wearing gloves or otherwise protecting the surface from your touch, give it a blow with your airbrush to ensure everything has evaporated & hit it with paint .

mgh

Was able to make a quick stop by the LHS.  He had no acrylic primer at all.  He suggested that I make sure and wash my parts before painting, and then I should not need primer.

I agree but I don't wash my parts as they are constantly handled, glued, cut, sanded, etc. all while getting skin oils, dirt and dust on them.

Just before painting I will scuff the plastic some with a Scotchbrite pad like you scour pots and pans with and then wipe the pieces with Poly S Plastic Prep or use 91% Isopropyl alcohol on a lint free rag. blow it off with some air from the airbrush and don't touch it with your bare hands and paint away.

If I prep this way I never have a paint lifting problem masking with Tamiya tape.

I'm using Vallejo Acrylics. I just buy the paint I need for a new kit and add some with each model.

Was able to make a quick stop by the LHS.  He had no acrylic primer at all.  He suggested that I make sure and wash my parts before painting, and then I should not need primer.

One thing I did not mention, was that I have been using artists acrylics, not "official" model paint.  Maybe it does not adhere as well as a Tamiya or Model Master?

I can say for certain that I have not always paid attention to making sure my parts had been cleaned up.  I have tried wiping parts off with rubbing alcohol, but I have not made a side-by-side comparison, and I have not always remembered to do that.  I will say that without primer, the paint looks awful.  Now that may be only because of my poor preparation, and I have been making up for that with the rattle can primer, I don't know.

It is difficult for me to describe, but the paint just does not "stick".

As for my choice of paint, I would be interested in what others have used.  I found out early on that I could get a small fortune tied up in $3.50 bottles of paint.  My situation at present does not allow me to do that; furthermore, I have had a lot of fun (and some frustration) mixing up colors.  I am happy when I come up with my own interpretation of "zinc chromate" green, or gull gray.  All that said, maybe it is time for me to try building up a stock of paint, but I know I can get nice results with the artists acrylics and primer.  

Thanks for all the replies and advice, I appreciate hearing what others are doing and have done, it is very helpful.

Acrylics don't really need a primer on plastic models, though I've heard a few such as Lifecolor may have some problems adhering without it.  Acrylics made for models such as MM Acryl, Vallejo, Tamiya, etc. generally stick just fine.  Prep the model surface by washing the plastic to get of any mold release agents and spray away.  The first two models I did coming back to the hobby were done with Vallejo Model Air without a primer, and went on perfectly in terms of coverage (thinning them down enough for fine mottled camo was a different story...)  I was able to mask with Tamiya tape an hour after spraying with no pullup.

If you need to spray a base coat to check for rough spots and provide color consistency then just use a neutral color from whatever acrylic line you're spraying. 

mgh

 

I want to stay with acrylics so that I can airbrush without a paint booth (which I do not have).  

I don't think a really good acrylic primer exists. At least from my limited experience with primers.

The words, "acrylic" and "adhesion problems" seem to go hand in hand with most on this site.

The only primer I have used is Floquil's Railroad color line but it is solvent based.

Any way you could use the airbrush outdoors or in a garage and use ventilation or a double cartridge respirator?

randypandy831

tamiya also makes a surface primer. bottle and spray can. it requires lacquer thinner for thinning. you can use mr.color thinner for the mr.surfacer.

Tamiya's bottled primers can also be thinned with denatured alcohol (ethyl alcohol, not Isopropyl) without any apparent ill-effects. Tamiya lacquer thinner and Gunze Mr Color thinner are more or less interchangeable and can be used for both Tamiya Liquid Surface Primer (bottled) and Mr Surfacer.

mgh

 

RESlusher:

 

I've heard Mr. Surfacer 1200 does work well as a primer; but I still prefer the $1 a can ColorPlace (formerly DupliColor brand) primer in rattle-cans from Wally-World.

Just my though...

 

 

I have heard of the $1 a can primer, but have never found it out at my WM.  Best I can do is close to $4 for a rattle can.

Does the Mr. Surfacer require thinning also?  Would I be able to "stretch" a bottle out by thinning it?  The one little shop I have access to had Mr. Surfacer products, but a few months ago I was looking for the 500 and he said he was having trouble getting it.  He may have had the 1200.

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the help!

yeah, Mr. Surfacer requires thinning from the bottle. there is three different versions of surfacer in the bottle. 500,100,and 1200. 500 being the thickest. i use surfacer straight from the can though. it has more control over the tamiya primer spray can wise. tamiya also makes a surface primer. bottle and spray can. it requires lacquer thinner for thinning. you can use mr.color thinner for the mr.surfacer. 

I often use a DuPont product Called Fill'N Sand 131S that is an acrylic primer surfaces.It's seem tamiya grey primer..............Enrico

Milairjunkie

Yes, correct it is lacquer based (I missed that bit), but Mr Surfacer is also laquer based - Vallejo acrylic primer does come to mind though. Here is the Vallejo product page & a product review;

http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/gb/primers-gb.html

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=5176 

I've used the Vallejo and it seems to have done a decent job. Mind you, I've only used it once on my most recent model and this is my first time using my AB.

Yes, correct it is lacquer based (I missed that bit), but Mr Surfacer is also lacquer based - Vallejo acrylic primer does come to mind though. Here is the Vallejo product page & a product review;

http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/gb/primers-gb.html

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=5176

Milairjunkie

Another vote for Alclad!

But Alclad primer is only available in lacquer correct?

I want to stay with acrylics so that I can airbrush without a paint booth (which I do not have).  

mgh

I have heard of the $1 a can primer, but have never found it out at my WM.  Best I can do is close to $4 for a rattle can.

Does the Mr. Surfacer require thinning also?  Would I be able to "stretch" a bottle out by thinning it?  The one little shop I have access to had Mr. Surfacer products, but a few months ago I was looking for the 500 and he said he was having trouble getting it.  He may have had the 1200.

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the help!

I can't speak for all Wally-Worlds everywhere; but at the ones I frequent the ColorPlace primers are all three located together (White, Gray & Primer Red) towards the bottom shelf.

I've never used Mr. Surfacer 1200.  Sorry.

Another vote for Alclad!

RESlusher

I've heard Mr. Surfacer 1200 does work well as a primer; but I still prefer the $1 a can ColorPlace (formerly DupliColor brand) primer in rattle-cans from Wally-World.

Just my though...

I have heard of the $1 a can primer, but have never found it out at my WM.  Best I can do is close to $4 for a rattle can.

Does the Mr. Surfacer require thinning also?  Would I be able to "stretch" a bottle out by thinning it?  The one little shop I have access to had Mr. Surfacer products, but a few months ago I was looking for the 500 and he said he was having trouble getting it.  He may have had the 1200.

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the help!