So, I'm looking to buy a Badger airbrush...

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbaerst be needed, and that using a single action to start off was recommended since it takes a little more skill to be able to manipulate both the paint flow and the aperature at the same time.

I disagree. A double-action airbrush is not that hard to use and is recommended over a single-action even for a beginner. I think the guy just wants you to come back and buy a second airbrush down the road.

QUOTE: He said that once I was comfortable with the 250, a good model to move up to would be the Badger 175T which he considered a proffessional airbrush. They were selling it for $142 and it looked pretty impressive in it's foam-lined wooden case.

Ouch! That's much too expensive. You can buy the 175 Crescendo set for about $70 elsewhere. I am not sure what's included in that pretty wood box but I'm sure you don't need it.

QUOTE: Anyway, here are my questions: 1. If the airbrushes are not gravity fed, what are they? Is gravity fed preferred over anything else?

They are siphon-feed which means that they siphon paint into the airbrush through a tube. Gravity-feed airbrushes are slightly easier to clean and are less troublesome to some because of the permanently mounted color cup, but they are not really any better than a siphon-feed, they are just different. I think you would be happy with either.

QUOTE: 2. I can't seem to find the 175T sold on any website. Is it discontinued?

That is the Badger Crescendo 175 and it is still being manufactured.
Here's a photo from Badger's web site:

QUOTE: 3. The guy explained that a single action airbrush would allow me to do base coats and the like, but not necessarily more complex camoflauge patterns that would be done with a double action. How useful would a single action airbrush, like a 250, be for me? I build 1:48 scale WWII fighters--not very large models!

I would still buy the double-action as it will spray the finer details you need for camo patterns on 1:48 aircraft.

QUOTE: 4. I can't see myself ever shelling out $200 for an air compressor--I don't think my parents would ever let me run it in my room anyway, which would mean I'd probably never use it (it takes serious motivation to work on a model if you're in the basement!). Canned air seems much more appealing to me, considering the fact that I don't do a lot of modeling...I'll probably only complete one airplane per every month or two (I work slowly). Are cans of air really that un-economical, or poor in consistency? I would imagine they would be quieter as well. My dad has a compressor he uses to fill wheelbarrow tires and the like, and it's extremely loud...louder than our car I'd say.

Canned air gets expensive real quick and is not recommended.
If you can't get a compressor then I would buy a 5 gal or bigger air tank and take it to the gas station and fill it. It will last you long enough to paint a model.
That would be much cheaper than the outrageous price they charge for those air cans.

QUOTE: 5. I asked him about what paints I could use with the airbrushes, and was disappointed when he said that Tamiya paints could not be used in Badger airbrushes! You sure? I thought that if they were thinned correctly, they could be fine. Buying a ton of new enamels from Testors would be a major, major bummer.

That guy has no idea what he is talking about. Tell him if he is selling a product he should at least know what he is talking about before making rediculous statements like that.

QUOTE: 6. So...suggestions?

At the prices they are charging I would buy one mail order.
I can tell you where to get any Badger or Omni for 40% off retail if you want to email me about it and the phone number to call.

Mike

Excellent, the situation sounds much better than I thought. My only problem now is figuring out what to use as an air supply. Hobby air compressors seem to go for $400-500, which is way more than I can afford.

Is there any good source that can be used in a bedroom for maybe $100? What are my options, and their prices?

The Crescendo 175 looked beautiful...it seemed to work flawlessly. A set like that for $70 would be most excellent. I think the air source will be what could break the bank for me.

And as to one air brush not being able to be connected to a compressor, and the hose being the expensive component of the cost, those are also nonsense. An airbrush does not care what it's hooked to as long as the air source is suitable. By suitable I mean proper pressure, proper connectors, and preferably dry and filtered. A 10' braided air hose from Dixie Art is $12.

You are not going to use an airbrush at a high pressure, especially for models. I run about 15 psi to mine, and I can get that from a can, an air bottle, or a compressor. I have a vinyl hose and a braided hose, and actually usually use the vinyl hose because it's more flexible and smaller in diameter. I think MikeV said that the t-shirt guys run about 60 psi (is that right, Mike?) and then you might want to go up to a braided hose.

The point is that the brush doesn't care where it's air comes from as long as it is a suitable supply.

Edit ... In response to your question about air supplies other than compressors, you might want to check into a CO2 bottle from a welder's supply or a company that provides CO2 for drink dispensers. I've heard they are relatively inexpensive and last forever.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MusicCity I think MikeV said that the t-shirt guys run about 60 psi (is that right, Mike?)

Yes sir, you are correct.

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbaerst Hobby air compressors seem to go for $400-500, which is way more than I can afford.

What compressors are you looking at? Just starting out like you are, you don't need a Silentaire 20A or anything like that. You can get a Silentaire Scorpion I for about $140.

Scott's advice for CO2, which I mentioned in my answer is a viable option too, but in the long run a compressor is your cheapest bet. You can buy an air tank at Wal-Mart or a similar store as I said and fill it anywhere you can get air and that will only cost you $30 or so depending on the size.

Mike

Alright! Thanks for all the advice guys. I feel as if my airbrush knowledge has tripled in the past few hours. Here are my final questions:

1. I've looked at Badger's comparison chart, and I believe that the Crescendo 175 with a medium nozzle is probably one of the best airbrushes I could ever want for 1:48 scale modeling. It seems to be available for sub-$100--MikeV, where can I find it for $70? Would people here agree that the 175 would suit me very well, or is there a different airbrush I should consider instead?

2. What sort of accessories would I need with an airbrush? Here's what I think I would need...

-Little jar for a siphon-fed airbrush
-Air hose
-Nozzle (medium?)

3. The SilentAire Scorpion I looks like a suitable choice for me. Is there any reason why I couldn't have it running in my bedroom (noise, fumes, dirt, electrical load)? If I had to operate in some out-of-the-way area, actual usage would plummet for me, I'm afraid.

Are there any extra items I would need with a compressor? I've heard talk about "regulators" and the like to control pressure...

I purchased a Badger 155 anthem for $66.00 with free S/H from www.dixieart.com
mark956

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbaerst Alright! Thanks for all the advice guys. I feel as if my airbrush knowledge has tripled in the past few hours. Here are my final questions: 1. I've looked at Badger's comparison chart, and I believe that the Crescendo 175 with a medium nozzle is probably one of the best airbrushes I could ever want for 1:48 scale modeling. It seems to be available for sub-$100--MikeV, where can I find it for $70? Would people here agree that the 175 would suit me very well, or is there a different airbrush I should consider instead?

I sent you an email on my recommendations.
The Crescendo set will run you about $79 from my source.
The Crescendo is a good airbrush but I don't care for the fat-bodied airbrushes like it and the Paasche VL. It is a matter of preference.

QUOTE: 2. What sort of accessories would I need with an airbrush? Here's what I think I would need... -Little jar for a siphon-fed airbrush -Air hose -Nozzle (medium?)

That depends on what you buy. If you bought the Omni 4000 I mentioned in that email then you would need an airhose only. If you bought the Omni 3000, Anthem 155 or Crescendo 175 then you would need an airhose and a metal color cup or glass jar for the paint. The Omni and Anthem have a single tip/needle combination for all spray patterns so you don't need any other sizes of tips or needles.

QUOTE: 3. The SilentAire Scorpion I looks like a suitable choice for me. Is there any reason why I couldn't have it running in my bedroom (noise, fumes, dirt, electrical load)? If I had to operate in some out-of-the-way area, actual usage would plummet for me, I'm afraid.

It is quiet enough for a room like yours and uses very little power as far as electricity goes. I don't know about fumes though as you have to have a way to exhaust the paint and thinners that you clean the airbrush with. Can you build in your bedroom and maybe paint the models elsewhere like the garage or something?

QUOTE: Are there any extra items I would need with a compressor? I've heard talk about "regulators" and the like to control pressure...

You would need a regulator with the Scorpion I as it does not come with one.
They can be found at stores like Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.

Mike

Hey, I just got some great news from my Dad.

Apparently, we have an industrial grade air tank with a regulator in our garage, along with the huge, previously mentioned compressor. I was hoping that with the air tank and regulator, we could fill up and pressurize the tank every once in awhile, then haul it up to my room and use it for a few months.

Would compressed air from any old source work? I've heard of some compressors supplying air that is too moist, and I'd hope that our compressor wouldn't have that problem. If that is the case, I suppose we could fill the air tank at a gas station or something, if that would be better...

Also, are regulators...rated in any sort of way? I'd assume not all regulators are created equal, and some are more lax than others in keeping constant air pressures on the exit end. Is there a certain specification for this, and if so, what specification would a regulator need to meet in order to work well for an airbrush? If what we have doesn't cut it, I'd be happy to buy a different one--I'm happy to invest some cash into a regulator if it will save me from the large cost of a whole compressor.

Lastly, what sort of connection is on the end of an airbrush hose? I would think it pretty likely that the output jack (dunno the proper terminology for this stuff...computer geek here) of the air tank wouldn't fit the airbrush hose, and I'd need an adapter from a hardware store. I just have to figure out what the adapter needs to connect to and connect from!

So, think this setup could work? It's a pretty large tank...from what I recall, I think it looks like...10 gallons maybe? Figure it's the size a large fire extinguisher, just with twice the diameter. It's industrial grade, so I assume it could handle a very high air pressure. I know the pressure and airbrush will take is no more than about 60 psi, especially when doing modeling work (more like 10-25 I guess), so would it be possible to run off such a tank without the compressor for a little while?

I checked Badger's website, and on their accessories page:

http://www.badger-airbrush.com/access2.htm

They list a few tools that I could probably use. They have air hose --> compressor adapters, moisture filters, regulators, and pressure gauges. Do you think the Badger filters could filter/dry the air well enough for me?

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbaerst Would compressed air from any old source work? I've heard of some compressors supplying air that is too moist, and I'd hope that our compressor wouldn't have that problem.

That tank would probablty work just fine. Just pump it up with the compressor and you are good to go. When it drops down low just pump it up again. Quiet and easy.

Any time you compress air the moisture in it gets squeezed out. This causes two problems: 1) The moisture gets spit out through the air hose, usually right in the midle of airbrushing something hard to fix, and 2) It causes rust in the tank and those rust particles can also come blowing through the air hose. A Filter / Drier takes care of both of those problems.

QUOTE: Also, are regulators...rated in any sort of way? I'd assume not all regulators are created equal, and some are more lax than others in keeping constant air pressures on the exit end. Is there a certain specification for this, and if so, what specification would a regulator need to meet in order to work well for an airbrush? If what we have doesn't cut it, I'd be happy to buy a different one--I'm happy to invest some cash into a regulator if it will save me from the large cost of a whole compressor.

They are different, but for all intents and purposes the same. The primary considerations are that 1) Their maximum inlet pressure rating is above that of the compressor, and 2) The fittings match those of the compressor. Since you will be using the tank to brush from, your main issue will be finding one that matches the fittings on the tank. They are probably (not certainly, but probably) going to be 1/4" NPT (National Pipe Thread) fittings.

QUOTE: Lastly, what sort of connection is on the end of an airbrush hose? I would think it pretty likely that the output jack

IT varies with the airbrush manufacturer and the hose itself. My vinly Badger hose has small (around 1/8") connections on both ends, whereas my braided hose has a small connector on one end for the brush and a 1/4"NPT threaded connector on the other.

QUOTE: So, think this setup could work? It's a pretty large tank...from what I recall, I think it looks like...10 gallons maybe? Figure it's the size a large fire extinguisher, just with twice the diameter. It's industrial grade, so I assume it could handle a very high air pressure.

It will work just fine. What I would do is get a filter/drier (about $20) and a regulator (another $20) or a combination of the two (around $40). Also get a quick-disconnect fitting so you can just "Plug" your air brush into the tank. All of those are available at Lowes or Home Depot or any good hardware store. The tank probably has a hose on it now for filling tires, and that would probably need to come off or you would need to find some way to connect it to your regulator.

Connect the regulator to the tank (use Teflon tape on the joints to make the joint air tight), then the filter/drier, and finally your airbrush. Regulate the pressure down around 15-20 psi and you are good to go.

Can't you just run a line from the compressor to your room? We have a big compressor at my work, and it runs lines to everybody's workstation, and the sandblaster as well. You could make it out of pvc or just a really long air hose or something like that. Then you could just put a regulator in your room and be in business.

I myself use a 5 gallon air tank with regulator and water trap attached. It has a standard 1/4" fitting. Badger airhoses will fit them.

To answer some of your other questions:

1) The other kind of feed is siphon feed. The fast moving air causes paint to be sucked up into into the airbrush. The advantage of a siphon feed is the ability to use bottles so you can have more paint and also to change colors. Gravity feed lets you use less pressure so with less pressure you have less overspray and thus can so finer patterns. Besides these types of feed there is also the side feed airbrush. This lets you have the best of both worlds. Depending on the paint attachment you can get either siphon or gravity feed from a side feed brush. (The Aztek is a side feed brush as is the Eclipse model I have.)

2) Don't know.

3) Actually you can do very nice camoflauge patterns with a single action airbrush. (Contrary to our resident airbrush experts advice too.) There are many top model builders at my club who use a single action Pasche to do very fine 1/48 and even 1/72 scale WWII German camo patterns freehand. I have a Badger 200 (actually 2) that can spray as fine a pattern if not finer with the fine tip and needle as my double action brushes (Badger 360, Iwata Eclipse, Aztek, [not because of double vs single action but because the fine tip is finer than the tip on these brushes]). All of these brushes are capable of doing free hand camo patterns on 1/48th scale WWII aircrafts.

I like a double action airbrush because you can control the airflow and paint flow with just the triger. To do so with a single action airbrush requires you to use both hands, and you can't do that very well during a paint job. You pretty much have to stop and then set the paint flow then continue with painting. But some people find using a double action airbrush harder and prefer a single action airbrush. I don't know how the Badger 250 perform. You can also look into a Badger 155 Anthem. It is a double action airbrush that is very similar to the new Badger 200 single action airbrush. They don't make the kind of Badger 200 I have which is the single action equivalent of the Badger 100.

4) Canned air is both uneconomical to use, and very bad performing. You can lose pressure in the middle of your work as the temperature drops. You don't get a lot of use out of a can either. Since your dad has a compressor already and you mentioned you wish to do some work in your room you can pick up a 5 gallong tank for real cheap from a place like Wal-Mart. Pump it up to about 60 to 80 PSI and then take it to your room to do your airbrushing. It will be quiet too. It will also beat running directly from a compressor. You just need to get a regulator and water trap. Use teflon pipe tape on the threading to prevent leaks. It's a little inconvenient to have to fill it up all the time, but you can't beat it for the cost, probably 3 cans worth of propellant.

5) Of course you can use Tamiya paints in Badger airbrushes. Besides that you don't want to spray enamel inside your room without a good spray booth. He was probably confused, because acrylic paints have a reputation for clogging airbrushes. Tamiya paints are one of the best for spraying..

Suggestions:
Since you are set on getting a Badger Airbrush it makes things easier. Your basic choices are down to single vs double action, feed type and spray pattern. You don't need a brush that is designed to spray ultra fine patterns for modeling. Gravity feed brushes are easier to clean but most models hold less paint. Personally I prefer a gravity feed brush. Make sure you don't get one with a really tiny resorvoir if you decide on gravity feed. As for the Badger 175 Crescendo, I think it may be overkill for your modeling needs. It sprays finer, but the Badger 155 Anthem will do what you want and they are both bottom feed brushes. The one main difference is that the Athem has a one size fits all tip and head assembly. The advantage of this is that you don't need to change tip and needle to spray different patterns. That is one of the things I hated with with Badger 200 having to change tips for different spray patterns. You can also look at the Omni as they are very similar but come in gravity and side feed models. The Badger 155 goes for about $50 from a well know mail order site including shipping.

QUOTE: Originally posted by hungfarlow 3) Actually you can do very nice camoflauge patterns with a single action airbrush. (Contrary to our resident airbrush experts advice too.) There are many top model builders at my club who use a single action Pasche to do very fine 1/48 and even 1/72 scale WWII German camo patterns freehand.

Nobody said a single-action will not spray fine enough lines for camo patterns as they will, but they are harder to do that with and they have the inherent problem of paint coming out all of the time. If the tip has wet paint on it and you point it at the model and pull the trigger, you get a splat in that spot. With a double-action you can point away from the model, push down on the trigger to release air only and clear the needle.
You can also push down and get air flowing and scrape the needle tip with your fingernails to allow the paint to flow freely again.
Also, a double-action allows you to do tricks that no single-action in the world can do, such as dagger strokes to simulate different effects.
Most of you are probably not familiar with what a dagger stroke is but it is the most important stroke that a T-shirt airbrush artist uses. It looks like this:


Even BearAir's web site says the following on choosing an airbrush:

"Most experts agree that you're better off starting with a double action airbrush, rather than a single action."


Mike

One other thing to consider-- if you go and grab the Badger 360, you have the option of either siphon feed or gravity feed....there is also an Iwata airbrush that offers both.... have yet to use mine, but I am anxious...

Badger Crescendo 175 from ebay 29.95 new in case.
7 gallon airtank Wal-Mart 19.95
Regulator 4.95 Wal-Mart
Moisture trap 11.95 Wal-Mart.

Thats all I needed to get started.
Someday a compressor, but for now a loaded tank gives me enough air for several paint sessions.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeeves One other thing to consider-- if you go and grab the Badger 360, you have the option of either siphon feed or gravity feed....there is also an Iwata airbrush that offers both.... have yet to use mine, but I am anxious...

An Iwata airbrush that offers both? Are you saying Iwata has a dual-role airbrush like the Badger 360? I've never seen that.

Mike

Hi,

try the web site: www.dixieart.com.

Great prices and there are the Badger 175 Crescendo, which I have one. It's double action and works very well.

Happy modeling
Jose Luis
Sintra-Portugal

I'm pretty sure it was Iwata Check last month's issue of FSM on the double actions-- I think I saw it there....I wish I was home now to confirm......

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeeves I'm pretty sure it was Iwata Check last month's issue of FSM on the double actions-- I think I saw it there....I wish I was home now to confirm......

I think he's talking about the HP-SBS. It's a side-feed model, which technically is gravity fed, but you can use bottles or other accessories like a siphon feed.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeeves I'm pretty sure it was Iwata Check last month's issue of FSM on the double actions-- I think I saw it there....I wish I was home now to confirm......

Mike,

Are you thinking of the Omni Matrix?
That is the only other one that is like the Badger 360.

Mike

Yup MikeV.... sorry- I was going to post on this last night but my daughter was not sleeping

I looked through last month's issue and it was the Thayer & Chandler Omni Matrix.....I apologize-- should've looked it up befirehad but I was at work.....

No problem Mike.

I was wondering there for a minute if Iwata came out with a new model I was unaware of.

Mike

Mike,

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but the following sentence from you sure has the implication that a single action airbrush can't do the fine camo patterns for 1:48 aircraft.

That's why I elaborated that it's really a control problem in difficulties and not how fine the particular airbrush can spray which you seen to agree in your follow on post.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV I would still buy the double-action as it will spray the finer details you need for camo patterns on 1:48 aircraft.

Hungfarlow,

You are correct. I guess what I said and what I meant were two different things.
A single-action will spray fine enough for camo paint jobs, but if you get down to really small details then the double-action is much better as it allows for more control.

Sorry about the confusion.

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by maddafinga Can't you just run a line from the compressor to your room? We have a big compressor at my work, and it runs lines to everybody's workstation, and the sandblaster as well. You could make it out of pvc or just a really long air hose or something like that. Then you could just put a regulator in your room and be in business.