what kind of respirator mask to use?

QUOTE: Originally posted by ModelMann One problem with respirators is younger modellers. My son's 10 years old, physically no slouch (5'1", 120lbs), but we can't find one that fits him well enough. I ventilate the room we use with small "personal" fans such as, along with the furnace fan going during the session. He also wears one of those 'surgical masks'. It's not the best solution, but it permits him to pursue the hobby with a marginal amount of safety (better than no safety at all).

At least you are trying to do something for him. One alternative that you might consider are a spray booth. There are several ideas here for building them inexpensively. Also, and you may have already explored this, is that 3M makes respirators in several sizes. I guess I'm pretty "Average" as far as face size goes, and I use the Large size. The "Small" or "Medium" size might fit him. I got mine at Home Depot. The Large is model 6300, the Medium is 6200, and the Small is 6100.

Once again, a very good source for respirator masks of this quality is Harbor Freight tools. I'll admit I was a bit anxious (and claustrophobic) using one the first time, but I'll swear by it!

One problem with respirators is younger modellers. My son's 10 years old, physically no slouch (5'1", 120lbs), but we can't find one that fits him well enough. I ventilate the room we use with small "personal" fans such as , along with the furnace fan going during the session. He also wears one of those 'surgical masks'. It's not the best solution, but it permits him to pursue the hobby with a marginal amount of safety (better than no safety at all).

One word about this topic, i hope you understand me (my english...ufff):
If you paint with acrylic or enamels, respirator mask with activate carbon filters is good. But if you use catalyzed automotive paints (car modelers specially), and/or automotice clear catalyzed enamel,respirator mask don´t avoid all the danger; catalyzers ("hardeners") contain chemical products don´t can be filtered by the mask (isocyanates); well, we paint models, not 1:1 cars, so the amount of toxic gas is minimal, but this are very toxic, for you and for the rest of people who living in your house. It´s imperative a spray-booth for minimice the risks; Large plastic container with a hole in the roof, extract system to a window with aluminium tube and kitchen or computer extract are very efficient and minimize the amount of isocyanate in the air.
You can see more info about item here:
http://www.labour.gov.sk.ca/safety/isocynates/printpage.htm

http://pcm.wattyl.com.au/system/pdf/2432.PDF

Hope this help,

Peppp61

qmiester,
You are quite correct. The reason I didn't recommend n-amyl acetate (banana oil) is that many drug stores don't carry it, and for the little bit used, diluted acetone on a q-tip won't add to the body burden in terms of exposure potential; plus it's a readily available and essentially low-toxicity solvent found most households. In addition, the reason I didn't expound further on the tilting, turning, and chewing, is that, quite honestly, I felt I had written about all I could stand at the moment, and surmised that a basic head-forward approach to fit testing would be simple and adequate for the home hobby respirator user.
I do, however, appreciate the additional insight you have provided; I don't know how anyone could remember it all....

lonerbboy,
1. No. Read the literature that will come with the respirator. Catalog/part numbers should be included for replacement parts, including filters and cartridges. If you contact www.conney.com, they should be able to help you if you have trouble with replacement parts.

2.Yes. That has previously been explained.

3. Depends on a lot of variables that have already been discussed. Just as a comparison, I have known industrial painters that have shot F-14s for a living, and their canisters have lasted several days to a week. Just know that when you begin to smell the odor inside the mask while you are wearing it, it's a good indicator the service life of your cartridges are at an end. Replace 'em.

4. Proper respirator storage is critical to maintaining cartridge life. No, the cartridges aren't working unless air is being passed through them. That's why you store them in a sealable plastic bag. See the above discussions.

Gip Winecoff

Gip,

You passed your CTT task on field fitting of the protective mask, M-40/M-42. On a serious note, when checking the respirator, you need to also check for smell while moving the head up and down and from side to side. Also check while making jaw motions like chewing gum. If your drugstore has it, I would reccomend using banana oil (amyl nitrate) instead of fingernail polish remover (its more user friendly to your system). Thats how we checked the old M-17 mask for years. Now there is a machine which is hooked up to your mask that checks leakage by ppm (part per million) without having to use any chemicals. Don't know how but it does work.

lonerboy

What kind of a premium do you put on your health? After 30 years around aircraft engines and big bore rifles I'm partially deaf in one ear and almost totaly deaf in the other. (No one else is wearing ear protectors, and it really won't hurt me). I've gotten soldering flux in the eyes (which will blind you), been made violently sick by paint and chemical fumes and had my glasses broken by flying objects (stem of 1/4" CherryMax rivet that came flying out the back of the gun). The really stupid thing is most of these things never would have happened if I had use the proper equipment to protect myself.

yeah, thanks for all of these infos. it definitely helps clear my head about weather or not i need purchase. if i have the facts, i can make a better judgment.

so for this 6200 series 3m mask, is there a certain bar code or number code that i need to be lookin at when purchasing filters??

or as long as the manufacturer is the same it is ok??

and if i paint 4-5 hours a day, for 4 days straight, how long do you think this respirator mask will last me? a week or so?

and as long as i don't breath inside the maks, the filters are not in use? i don't want to waste anything.

Scott,
You're welcome. Hope you and others can use it to your advantage. Besides, I have fun doing it...

Gip Winecoff

That's some very complete and comprehensive information, Gip. Thanks very much for passing it along.

QUOTE: but how much of the pigments, vapors, gasses do one have to suck up until his lungs fail? i painted three different robot resin kits and didn't wear a mask yet. but i plan on painting two more, and i think a mask is a good thing. but should i be worried that the first three sets of kits killed my lungs by now?

This question is difficult because there are so many variables to consider; however based on the frequency and duration of painting, the quantities and concentrations you use, my own experience at modeling, and observations of my modeling friends, I would say you are probably a long way from "having your lungs killed".

QUOTE: and what is a pre-filter? how is this different any filter?

The prefilter catches the particulates--the paint pigment. It sits on top of the organic vapor or chemical cartridge filter. It's normally made of a fibrous material--it kind of reminds you of a miniature furnace filter or other air filter in your house. The chemical cartridge is usually thicker and contains activated charcoal that adsorbs the vapors you generate.

QUOTE: and for storing the mask. i have a question about that. how do you really store it? i don't think i have a zip-log bag that's big enough for the mask. and once i place the filters onto the mask, do i just leave it on? or should i take the filters out after i'm done with it?

Go to the grocery store and get some zip-loc or similar variety freezer bags. They come in several sizes, one of which will fit your mask. Also, look at the bag the mask came in. Sometimes manufacturers make it so the bag is reusable for storing your mask.
Once you put the cartridges on, you can leave 'em that way. Occasionally, though, you are going to want to clean your respirator. There are two ways to do this:
1. After each use, wipe down the rubber portion of the mask with some mild soap and water. Stay away from alcohol, because it will degrade the silicone in the mask, and the seal will become brittle.
2. Disassemble the mask and wash in mild soap and water. Let it air dry, and reassemble it. DON'T WASH THE CARTRIDGES!

QUOTE: and after the filters are dead, how do i know which filters to get? i don't have any of these hardware stores around here. home depot is like an hour drive. the commute sucks. where else can i get these filters? do they come in seperate packages?

Not knowing exactly where you are, I have no idea what's available. But the cartridges have to be replaced with the identical part. You can't put another manufacturer's cartridge or filter on your respirator.
Yes, chemical cartridges usually come packaged two to a plastic bag. Not sure about prefilters. I've seen variation between manufacturers.
Check your yellow pages or the internet for safety supply houses or even welding suppliers. One place that's pretty good is www.conney.com

Hope this helps some
Gip Winecoff

damn, styrene, what's wit all this science knowledge? you a doctor? hehe.
and everyone here seems to know alot about this stuff.
i think u can tell that i'm still a begginer at all of this.
but how much of the pigments, vapors, gasses do one have to suck up until his lungs fail?
i painted three different robot resin kits and didn't wear a mask yet. but i plan on painting two more, and i think a mask is a good thing.
but should i be worried that the first three sets of kits killed my lungs by now?

and what is a pre-filter? how is this different any filter?

and for storing the mask. i have a question about that.
how do you really store it? i don't think i have a zip-log bag that's big enough for the mask.
and once i place the filters onto the mask, do i just leave it on? or should i take the filters out after i'm done with it?

and after the filters are dead, how do i know which filters to get? i don't have any of these hardware stores around here. home depot is like an hour drive. the commute sucks.
where else can i get these filters? do they come in seperate packages?
thanks everyone for the info. i really needed these.

Sorry this is so long.....

QUOTE: is the below item good enough? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2596978576&category=11905 Its one of them 3m's. but i got no clue if it's the same one. or if it's good enough.

Yep, that's the one. Should work great; ad says it comes with 2 sets of prefilters.

QUOTE: so what the exact particles that really is hazardous? Fumes? i don't really see any fumes. how do they go inside of your lungs? particles actually fly out of my airbrush?

1. The particulates that "fly out of your airbrush" exist in the form of pigment. This is what makes the paint color. For years paint pigments were manufactured from lead, or other heavy metals such as cadmium and chromium, which includes zinc chromate and strontium chromate. Most manufacturers have gone to titanium dioxide as a pigment agent because of its reduced toxicity. You should still protect yourself from potential overexposures to these pigments; a respirator with a prefilter filters out these particulate materials--also called paint residues.

2. Fumes--as you call them--are actually vapors and originate from the evaporation of the liquid solvent carrier as it leaves the airbrush or spray can and deposits the pigment on the model. You can't see them because solvent vapors are gaseous. Any liquid solvent attached to the pigment is in the form of an aerosol--but still too small to see.

3. They get into your lungs because there is one habit you can't control: breathing. You inhale both the vapor (gas) portion and the particulate (pigment) fraction. The vapor goes straight to the portion of the lung responsible for gas exchange, and is transported into your blood stream. Particulates are a little bit different. Their size has to be just right, and the particle velocity has to be just so for them to make it into the base of the lung. Typically, the particle has to be in the 5 micron size range for it to reach deep lung tissue. Once there, it can stay and block up your lung tissue, or be "processed" and enter the blood stream.

Just for information, fumes are particulates that result from welding processes, or are the off-gassing particulates (aerosols) of acids.

QUOTE: oh and how long does everyones respirator maks last? i hear some only last 40 hours. does this mean, that one i put the filter cartridges on, it will keep sucking for the entire day? cuz if so, i'll have to throw them away within 2 days.

There is no standard time for respirator cartridges to last. Typically, if you smell the contaminant inside the mask, or experience difficulty breathing (All this assumes a good facepiece-to-face fit), then it's time to change the cartridge and/or prefilter. Chemical cartridges can have their service life reduced significantly depending on how you treat the respirator when you're not wearing it. Leaving it sit out, particularly in the room where you have just finished painting will use up the cartridges in a very short time. The best thing you can do when finished wearing the respirator is to store it in a plastic bag with a zip-loc closure to keep air and moisture away from the cartridges.

Hope this helps.

Gip Winecoff

PS
I put this in a previous post some months ago, but it's good information if you've never worn a respirator before. It should help you wear it correctly, and get the best benefit from it.

1. Inspect the respirator. Make sure the inhalation and exhalation valves seat well against their mounts, and ensure there is no dirt between the valve and seat.
2. Put the neckstrap on first, then the head strap. (BTW, you should not be wearing a respirator if you have a beard or other facial hair that interferes with the facepiece seal).
3. With the respirator adjusted to your face, cover both the respirator cartridge inlets with your hands. If your hands are too small, try a small plastic bag in each hand that will cover the inlet. Breathe in. The respirator should collpase slightly on your face. If there are any leaks around the facepiece, readjust the respirator, and try again. When you can take a breath and hold it for about 10 seconds without a leak, you have a good seal. This is called a negative pressure fit test.
4. Next, cover the exhalation valve and breathe out slightly. The facepiece should expand on your face, but air should not escape from around the seal. This is a positive pressure fit test.
5. Breathe normally. If you can't breathe, or if you encounter difficulty getting air through the respirator moreso than normal, the prefilter side of the cartidge is full and should be replaced prior to your next job.
6. Get a q-tip and wet it in some fingernail polish remover. Standing in front of a mirror, or with a friend, pass the q-tip around the respirator seal and your face. Breathe through your nose. If you can't smell the polish remover, you have a good seal, and the cartridges have not reached the end of their service life. On the other hand, if you can smell the remover, readjust the respirator, do a positive and negative fit test and try again. If the fit is good (no leaks), and you can smell the remover, it's time to change the chemical cartridges.

A couple final thoughts:

Keep in mind that facial deformities, sudden gains or losses of weight, and new dental or oral surgery work may cause problems with getting a good face-to-facepiece seal with the respirator.

Do you have asthma or are you claustrophobic? Difficulty breathing may be due to a previous medical condition, or to anxiety associated with being claustrophobic. If you have pre-existing lung problems, you might want to see your doctor before getting a respirator.


If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to e-mail me.

GW

There are some experts that visit the forums that can really give you a detailed explanation. But I would say both are very bad for you. I'd think that the fumes are the worse of the 2. The airbrush atomizes the paint and overspray gets into the air. Its good that your going to get a mask. A lot of people don't even think about it.

That mask looks a lot like mine but I forget the model number. Mine came with a couple replacement filters.

I've had mine a year now and haven't replaced the filters.... but I will here very soon. I'd imagine how often you replace them would depend on how much your painting. Once or twice a year would probably work ok for me. But a heavy painter probably should consider once a month. Filters are cheap.... you only get 2 lungs Some of the master airbrushers could probably give you better advice than me!

thanks for the info.

so what the exact particles that really is hazardous? Fumes? i don't really see any fumes.

how do they go inside of your lungs? particles actually fly out of my airbrush?

is the below item good enough?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2596978576&category=11905

Its one of them 3m's. but i got no clue if it's the same one. or if it's good enough.

oh and how long does everyones respirator maks last? i hear some only last 40 hours. does this mean, that one i put the filter cartridges on, it will keep sucking for the entire day? cuz if so, i'll have to throw them away within 2 days.

I use the same mask Hungfarlow does. It does the job.

I had big concerns about inhaling those nasty fumes so I made the switch over to acrylics. But you know that Tamiya thinner smells wickedly bad. I've read a lot of post from people who are using rubbing alcohol to thin the paints. I might give that try and see how it works out.

In the end I'd like to build or buy a spray booth and get those fumes out of the house!

Good suggestions, fellas! MSA (Mine Safety Appliances) and 3M make excellent respirators. You won't go wrong with them.

Gip Winecoff

I use one by 3M which I got from Home Depot for $25. It's what got me back to using acquiring more enamel paints and spraying them. I'm thinning with lacquer thinner for that extra bite. Can't even smell the fumes at all with the respirator. The smell really isn't the problem. The health hazzard is.

You could always switch to acrylic paints where there's a less need for a respirator.

I use and recommend the MSA Comfo Elite 1/2 mask here:



Mike

I would be very careful or just stay away altogether. The ad states that they are both particulate and chemical, but the pictures show a particulate filter ONLY. In addition, the respirator would appear to be what I would call a no-name. If you need additional filters or cartridges, where you gonna get 'em? Cartridges and filters are not interchangeable from manufacturer to manufacturer; you can't put a 3M cartridge on a North respirator. Getting one from your local hardware dealer or even safety supply house would ensure a greater probability of finding replacement parts when the time comes.

Gip Winecoff

PS

The add states,

"Installed cartridges are "R-620 Dust Cartridge For dust mists metallic fumes and flying small particles of low toxicity" .

What in blue blazes does that mean?

If a respirator system has been tested and certified by NIOSH (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health), then there's no doubt as to what the cartridge is certified for. Cartridges will also have the designation N95, P100, etc., which are the new designations for the HEPA series of filters.

Stay away from ebay on this one. Better yet, turn off your computer and run away.

GW

thanks alot for your info.
yeah, i mostly use tamiya acrylics. but also sometimes use enamels and alclad lacquers. and i don't know how bad they are to my heath.

which of these look like a better respirator system? they both look alike though. if the links don't work, then you can just forget about them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2379596006&category=43617

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43998&item=2460059926

thanks again for any infos.

MusicCity pretty much has it down. The respirator necessary to protect you from both particulates and organic vapors will run you about $20 at the local hardware store. It consists of a half mask, usually made of silicone rubber, two cartridges designed to filter out organic vapors (the stuff you're smelling), and a prefilter to catch any particulates. The cartridges and prefilters will require changing based on how often you wear the respirator, and how much and where you paint (the type of ventilation you have available).
Simply changing locations (e.g., a garage instead of a closet or enclosed basement), opening a window, and putting a small room fan at your back can reduce the odors from spraying enamels. Spray booths are great, but cost can be cost prohibitive, even for homemade ones. If you can't afford a respirator, then chances are you may not yet be in the market for a spray booth.
Lastly, substituting acrylics for enamels can reduce the smell, but acrylics contain organic solvents just like enamels--just not the same ingredients in the same quantities--so precautions still need to be taken when spraying them.
A good respirator is a great place to start. You'll appreciate the results from getting and wearing a good one.

If you have specific questions, don't hesitate to post them here!

Gip Winecoff

Been there, done that, understand the headaches! Just filtering the particles is not going to get rid of the fumes. You'll need a true respirator for that, and not just a filter. Respirators are typically $20 to $30.

You might also consider a spray booth which you could build yourself or switching to acrylic paints. I went the acrylic route and never looked back.