Help with spraying from rattle cans

DUSTER

You ain't the only one brother, I didn't even know half of this stuff before.

Thanks for the original question.

My pleasure, Steve. Makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only one on the planet who didn't know all this stuff about rattle cans.

Greg

Your 2 cents is always appreciated, John! Thank you.

This thread has been a valuable source of information to me. Thanks again to all who have added their thoughts and suggestions!

You ain't the only one brother, I didn't even know half of this stuff before.

Thanks for the original question.

Your 2 cents is always appreciated, John! Thank you.

This thread has been a valuable source of information to me. Thanks again to all who have added their thoughts and suggestions!

Greg,

 Now that I see this thread I feel I need to throw my 2 cents in too.   I've been using Tamiya's spray can primer on all my planes over the last year and I love the stuff,  I usually put on a light coat that just covers all the color inconsistencies and then proceed with the preshadowing then main colors.  works for me.  Now if I can just get my mottling down on my Fw190's I'd be happy.

And I do agree with some of the earlier posts about the panel lines being over accentuated, normal planes would never look that dark, I guess it's all in what you like.  I like some of it but not to heavy.

John

Thanks for chiming in, Jim. I appreciate your comments.

Well, Greg, there isn't really anything else I can add to these responses. It looks like everyone has given you really good advice, especially patrick206. He pretty much hit the nail on the head particularly with the tip about warming the can first. I think that's one of the more critical steps in preparing to paint with a rattle can. I know every time I warmed the can I had the most success.  But I've since completely sold out to using an airbrush when I "spray paint" a model. There is just no comparison to the museum quality results that CAN be achieved with airbrushing. You won't even find a rattle can on my workbench anymore unless it's an old can of clearcote.

Jim

Thank you for your advice, Chuck.

Actually, I had obtained a can of Tamiya fine surface primer and it did seem to work great but my control with the rattle can was awful. That was exactly what prompted this thread. Hopefully next time around, applying techniques suggested here, I will do better.

Yep, those Tamiya primers are nice (I have a can of white primer), but I prefer AB primers because I have better control this way.

If you want a good lacquer based primer, I would recommend Tamiya fine surface primer, or Gunze Mr. Surfacer 1200 primer.  Both come in spray cans, and you don't have to fool around mixing anything.  You can over paint them with acrylics or enamels.  Easy to use, and I have always had good results with these primers.  I prefer Tamiya, because it is relatively easy to obtain these days.

Steve, Ha!

It's one thing to listen to advice and think I've learned something. The proof, of course, is doing and practicing. I wish my Vallejo stuff would get here so I can attempt some of this before I forget it!

Kidding, sort of. The thread is here for review.

Greg

Another thing I've learned from this thread is the part about the word "medium" in Vallejo products means 'to be mixed with one of their model paint producst to produce some sort of result'.

Thanks again, Andrew.

SEE? its all becoming clear now .....I think

Thanks for your further info, Andrew. I have to admit that the techniques in your paragraph 3 are a bit over my head for now, but I get the general idea, more or less.

So you use Vallejo airbrush thinner for airbrushing (good, I have some on order) and thinner medium for brush painting (good, i have some). That makes sense, thank you.

What didn't make sense is I recently ordered my first Model Air paint as sets of RLM colors, which included thinner medium. Now as a new Vallejo user, and knowing that Model Air is formulated for airbrushing, it would seem to me that they would include a suitable airbrush thinner if they are going to include anything. This really threw me, but you and Clemens have helped to straighten me out on this part of my confusion.

For now, just a bit frustrated waiting for delivery of what I hope will be a proper thinning product. I figure one out of the two has to be the right one. :)

Another thing I've learned from this thread is the part about the word "medium" in Vallejo products means 'to be mixed with one of their model paint producst to produce some sort of result'.

Thanks again, Andrew.

Greg,

I own three of the thinning / cleaning products.  I use the airbrush thinner for anything in the airbrush.  It's thin, like water.  I use the 'thinner medium' which is a lot thicker and gel like for brush painting.  Just seems a little thick to shoot.  I use their airbrush cleaner (cut half and half with water) for a quick clean of the color cup between colors while I'm painting.  I use an ultrasonic cleaner at the end of a paint session (with soap and water) for a final clean.  

I thin my dark colors with one to one or one to two (paint to thinners) and my lights about three to one, just because of the amount of pigment, when I'm spraying.  This being said, I use a lot of pressure and very little paint when I'm spraying, so it depends on your technique.

When I mention the mediums, I use them with my pre shading technique.  I lay down the proper color, then a dark shade and a light highlight.  This way I'm using my proper color as the mid tone.  Lastly, I take my proper color and mix it one to one or one to two with a medium (usually gloss medium) and a drop of thinner for each drop of product.  This is my last layer, and I spray it over everything until the shade is almost gone.  The mediums make the paint very translucent, allowing the shade and highlight to show through.  I'm still experimenting to see if I can get that layer glossy enough to decal on without using a layer of clear gloss.  

I use this same technique for brush painting, especially for figures, just using the 'thinner medium'.

I hope that helps, and yes, I was as confused with the different thinners, I just bought and tried one of each.  The next big job I have is figuring out their chipping medium.

You won't go wrong with the grey primer knowing you can't do the remedial work on it, as a base for paint I find it great.  It has a nice tooth to it and sticks well to a clean piece.  

I shall pass along my test results re the Vallejo white primer, my friend. It should arrive by Friday, probably spray some over the weekend.

That is both interesting and odd about the Revell acryl airbrush thinner working with the Alclad products.

You are spot on, I am simply a bit intimidated to shoot lacquer based Alclad. That and the smell..... :)

Don't let the "lacquer" part of the Alclad primers fool you. I hesitated to use it as well, when I first heard of it (because of it being non-acrylic), but I was really surprised by that stuff.

I never had any issues getting that stuff out of my AB. "That's nothing special with the right thinner" you might think at this point, but now comes the surprise: I was and am using the wrong thinner! I use Revell "Aqua Color Clean" almost exclusively for cleaning my AB, which is an acrylic thinner. I tried to clean my AB with it when using Alclad productas as well and it worked like a charm! That applies to their primers, their clear lacquers and their metallic paints.

The primers are pre-thinned BTW, so they are really easy to use as well.

I'm not working for Alclad (just to make sure), but I'm a huge fan of their products and I never had issues using them...

Make sure to tell me how that white primer behaves. I want to know if I'm the only one having major issues with it.

Well, when I placed my Vallejo order the other day I ordered 2 grey primers, and 1 ea whi and black, so I might have wasted some money. Especially on the white. Of course I'll play with it eventually.

I would like to avoid any non-acrylic primers if possible, but starting to sound like that may or may not happen.

I hadn't even seen the premium reducer. Oh goodie, now it's four thinners to confuse me. Seriously, thanks for the explanation of the 3 products you mentioned, Clemens.

In a couple days when my order arrives, perhaps I'll take a pic of the thinner products I'm confused about, should make it easier to opine. Tried the liquitex flo-aid at 20:1 (liquitex : distilled water) this afternoon, jury is out until I can try one of the real thinners.

Greg: My LHS has 3 different Vallejo thinners:

• Airbrush Thinner: the basic thinner for model color and model air
• Premium "Reducer": premium thinner that works better with their primers than the normal thinner
• Airbrush Cleaner: Not that good for thinning paint, but suitable for cleaning your AB (I use Revell Aqua Color Clean instead)

Acrylic thinners tend to respond to sanding in a bad way. You need lacquer-based primers that have more "bite" for this task (Alclad anyone?)

I can confirm the "nothing good" about the white primer. It doesn't "bite" at all (worse than regular acrylic paint) and doesn't flake, but literally peels off surfaces. It is necessary to thin it, as it is way too thick when used right out of the bottle, but the thinning (with Vallejo's thinner and "premium thinner") results in almost no coverage regarding the color. It is also a pain to get out of your airbrush, even with very "hot" thinners (I tried rubbing alcohol, water, Vallejo AB cleaner, Gunze acrylic thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Vallejo acrylic thinner and even laquer thinner)

In short: Vallejo's primers are good, but stay away from the white one. Rather use the gray primer and  spray normal white paint on to of it.

This is only my experience and I never bought aq second bottle after having so much trouble with it, so I might just recieved a bad one...

Andrew, very much appreciate you comments on Vallejo primer and Vellejo in general. Thank you!

My only real experience priming since I've been back has been with MM primer, and it was not a good experience. Also, it did not respond well to sanding or scribing. Had you not mentioned it, I probably would have thought no primers sand well.

I am 'getting into' Vallejo. Loving the way Model Air spays, like the way Model Color brushes, and at the moment am overwhelmed (and confused) by the range of products they have. I shall heed your advice and play with some of their mediums.

Since you are a Vallejo user, any chance you might know the difference between Vallejo thinners? I am seeing thinner medium, airbrush thinner, and yet another that just says 'thinner' in 3 languages. According to Vallejo, at every product description they suggest mixing a few drops when airbrushing. Can't use em all, wouldn't be any pigment left!

My two cents on the Vallejo primers, as I do use them quite a bit.

I have their light grey primer, and that's all I really use.  It's a form of acrylic, so it doesn't 'bite' the same as a hot primer will (alclad).  As mentioned above, it doesn't hurt to thin it slightly (I also like 10-20%).  Vallejo primers don't really like remedial work (i.e. sanding, scribing) they flake rather than feather.  For this, I use a thin neutral color of model air while I'm doing my surface work, once I am happy I use primer as a paint base.  If it's applied lightly in thin coats, it gives a nice rough surface for paint to adhere to.  It takes no time to dry, but a day or two to properly cure.  It also leaves all of the surface detail very clearly visible and unfilled.  

Personally, I really like Vallejo's products (with the exception of their washes) and if you're into model air, I recommend buying some of their 'mediums' (gloss, glaze, matt) and playing with those, they make pre shading a dream when done right.  

I know Vallejo makes their primers in a number of colors, I've heard nothing good about the white primer, so I've just stuck to grey.  It's a nice product, not too thick, no stink to it and once you get over not being able to sand it very well, it's pretty easy to work with.

That makes sense, Clemens, thanks. I haven't tried a primer product with microfiller yet in real life, just test sprays so far. So many things to try......  :)

If it produces a coarse finish, it is the microfiller. That stuff is great for filling gaps which are too small for putty. Just spray some layers of the microfiller over the gap and sand it amooth afterwards...

Clemens, on your previous recommendation I acquired some Alclad primer. Have only done a couple test sprays so far, but I definitely see what you mean about needing a light sanding. I am still not certain if I got the Alclad primer with or without microfiller, on my list of things to check on. My head is swimming a bit trying to get handle on all of the products new (to me), and deciding which I will settle on and tend to use.

Odd you mentioned the Vallejo primers. Just ordered some from Squadron this morning. Interesting to hear that in your experience, the Alclad 'sticks' better.

I don't know yet whether I will end up  settling on rattle can or airbrush priming, but in either case the knowledge gained from all of the great replies here will be very helpful.

I also experienced that Alclad primers have a bit more "bite". They stick to the surface slightly better than Vallejo's products.

I don't use rattle cans, but I can only recommend Vallejo or Alclad primers for airbrushing. I like Alclad's primer a bit more, but that is personal preference.

Alclad primer is available in black, gray and white. It also serves as a microfiller. You might consider sanding the primed areas with very smooth sand-paper though, as that primer might produces a coarse finish.

I fing Vallejo's primers harder to apply to a model, but they produce a very smooth surface if applied right. It is available in black, gray, white, olive drab, red brown, russian green, dark yellow,... The colors include almost every base-color used on WW2 armor.

Patrick, great hints indeed! Thank you very much. Never would have thought to warm the cans, or clean the nozzles in thinner.

Enamels from an airbrush was something I hadn't considered, either. Thanks again!

Greg -

All good hints from the others, here are mine.

1. Warming the can in some nice warm water, (not hot,) for a few minutes before painting can produce a better flow, then the paint is a bit more likely to lay down in a nice flat surface. Caution: That does make it thinner, so follow the advice to make wider, sweeping passes, start spray before reaching the area, release after, make straight lines, not circles.

2. Don't get too close, or back too far. Experiment with distance on scrap, shiny printed cardboard, you'll soon see what distance works best. Too close = thick and runs, too far = rough, pebbly surface, the droplets begin drying before hitting the desired surface.

3. When finished with the job, spray the can upside down until only air comes out. Then keep a jar with compatible thinner handy, take the nozzle out of the can and place submerged in the thinner. It will keep the nozzle clear and usable for as long as you keep the can. With nozzle out of the can, place a few drops of thinner into the can's nozzle receptacle, that helps remove traces of paint left behind which can dry, leading to a poor fit when reinserting the nozzle next time.

4.If you have virtually any airbrush, Model Master Flat Enamels make an excellent final primer and sand out beautifully. Spray on the area to be primed, wait at least one full day, then sand very lightly with 1200 grit. You'll quickly see which areas need further priming/sanding, if any. But be sure to not spray final finish with lacquer base over the enamel.  

Hope it helps you, good luck with your future model projects.

Patrick

I had not considered that, Don. Thank you for mentioning it!