Which is worse? Lacquer Thinner vs. Denatured Alcohol

I have (expensive) AK thinner. I learned that it's basically denatured alcohol. Of course, being denatured alcohol, it removed cured AK primers, Vallejo primers & Vallejo paints.  

In my experience, denatured alcohol will rip Vallejo MC off styrene faster than you can blink.

oh, I get it now.

I thought you were using Vallejo paints. The Vallejo PolyUrethanes are completely different chemsitry. I believe it was based on your posts that I bought Vallejo Poly primers, then another guy's post that got me to buy AK's primers,,,,and another that got me to buy Badgers primers.

For AK and Vallejo PolyUrethane washing, you might try the AK Interactive thinner, it is #712. It works with Vallejo, Italeri, AK, and LifeColor paints,,,,,so maybe it is "universal" enough to work with the primers? #712 is what AK lists on their primer bottles also.

Rex

I shoot Vallejo only with my Paasche H (My Iwata ABs are for Tamiya).  I don't have a real problem with cleaning Vallejo.  I just don't enjoy the fact that I cannot simply shoot IPA or Windex to clean the AB after using Vallejo, and that I have to use a stronger thinner.   So why do I shoot Vallejo?  I shoot only Vallejo primers.  They are great for heavy chipping effects or winter camos in conjunction with Tamiya acrylics because they are impervious to IPA.  Prime with Vallejo and apply a base coat, a white wash or camo patterns with Tamiya.  Then, scrub away Tamiya with IPA.    

Shrug, sorry,,,,,,I used dried PollyScale for my test patch. Since everyone talked about how much stronger PollyScale was compared to others, I thought it would work on the weaker bonding stuff too. And I use predominantly PollyScale and Aeromaster, I haven't had to remove the few Vallejo, Italeri or LifeColor paints that I do use.

I am a bit confused by what the exact problem is though, Chrisk-k,,,,,47,000 people all scream in unison that "my Vallejo won't stick to my model", which is plastic,,,,and you have it bonded permanently in your airbrush?  (I am assuming it is a different problem that we get from Alcohol thinning)

I am just asking,,,,,,,,my joke answer to "how do I remove Vallejo paints" is "use your fingernail, it will come off just like LifeColor and Italeri"

Rex

Have you tried Testors Universal Airbrush Cleaner? That stuff removes even long dried & cured enamel paint... I bet that it will clean up dried Vallejo quite easily. And very mild smelling stuff too. It is marketed for their acrylics, but is not to be confused with their similarly packaged acrylic airbrush thinner.

Unfortunately, Medea Airbrush Cleaner & Vallejo Cleaner cannot remove dried Vallejo-family acrylics. I have both.

There is a product that is both Non-Toxic and designed for Airbrush Cleaning.

It is called Medea Airbrush Cleaner, made by Iwata. It is odorless and environmentally safe, the only warning is that it is an eye irritant (but, so is high pressure distilled water, lol)

It is intended for all of these jobs: spray through airbrush between colors, spray through airbrush at end of the day's painting, soak disassembled airbrush parts for at least one hour (to remove dried paint), and soak overnight or use in ultrasonic cleaner for tough dried on paint.

I just popped the cap off and got my nose wet smelling it, and my bottled drinking water smells like water, and this stuff doesn't even have that tiny amount of smell to it. So, they are truthful in the "odorless" part of their description.

The UPC is 34748 50044 and you will find a list of vendors by Googling " Medea Airbrush Cleaner "

Here is a photo, at the same place I get mine from  www.dickblick.com/.../iwata-medea-airbrush-cleaner  

lol, the word filter does not like "D-word Blick" as a vendor name,,,,,,,but, you can find lots of useful things there while you browse.

Rex

There are two kinds of lacquer- the old fashioned kind originally made from parts of bugs, and the newer acrylic lacquers.  These two do definitely seem to have much different thinners.

In general, I agree that most lacquer thinners are more toxic than alcohols. Of course, not all lacquer thinners and denatured alcohols are alike. Tamiya's lacquer thinner doesn't even closely resemble the stuff you typically get at a hardware store. For cleaning, I use lacquer thinner that contains acetone, not all of them do, so it helps to read the labels.

Denatured alcohol can also vary by manufacturer. I've seen some that are 100% methanol, while others are mostly ethanol with other poisons added (such as MEK). Again, read the label.

And keep in mind that toxicity by ingestion isn't the only thing to worry about. You also need to be aware of the dangers of inhaling vapors.

Chris

And here for a moment I was thinking of IPA was India Pale Ale....

Chrisk-k

I use 91% IPA

Chris, you may also wish to look into the toxicity of IPA. It's actually quite comparable to Denatured alcohol. Average lethal dose (by Ingestion) is approximately  250ml (99% strength).

Do a search on "Isopropyl alcohol poisoning", you may find it interesting.

I use 91% IPA or Windex to clean Tamiya acrylics.

I occasionally use Vallejo family acrylics, for which I'll use denatured alcohol from now on.  Never mix IPA or Windex with Vallejo, AK & Italeri stuff once they start to dry: you will get a gooey mess, which you don't want in your airbrush.

@Chrisk-k - i didn't realise that. I should have clarified, i only use Gunze and Tamiya acrylics.

However, now that Gunze is almost impossible to buy here anymore and all the LHS are changing over to Italeri, i may have to change cleaner too.

That's a shame.

My favorite form of alcohol is the kind found in gin- Beefeater's, Tanqueray, etc……  :-)  I don't waste it by spraying it!

An alternative which i use for acrylics is Windex (ie, the stuff you spray and wipe on windows and glass).

I think it contains ammonia though and certainly, you don't want to get your nose too close to that either.

Not sure where it would sit on the scale of dangers to humans, however, it is cheaper than acetone and lacquer thinner.

LOL! That's what I figured. One can get sick and even die from alcohol ingestion. But lacquer thinner has no additional purposes besides its intended use. Whereas various alcohols have their medicinal and recreational uses by ingestion.

I wasn't aware of the MSDS. I googled and skimmed the MSDS of lacquer thinner vs. denatured alcohol.   Long story short, denatured alcohol is toxic and lacquer thinner is *extremely* toxic.

Chris - I think Stik is right on point, I agree with all he wrote. My take is that I'm pretty sure lacquer thinner/reducer is the less friendly of the two, probably not inherently dangerous, but best to keep your work environment as free of vapors as possible anyway. The ingredient resistant gloves will be a great idea. You may already be aware of them, but MSDS, (Material Safety Data Sheets,) will provide about all of the info you might need in deciding exposure risk of pretty much anything you might be using. Just go online, type in "Ingredient Name" MSDS.

Alcohol in about any formula I think would pose less risk, fairly benign stuff likely.

Acetone is really an aggressive cleaner, I use it to clean small paint brushes. Even after lot's of use and the inevitable bit of dried acrylic caking at the metal attach ring, the Acetone will almost instantly dissolve it and return the brush to new condition. Wish I had known this decades ago, my brush costs would have been much lower.

Recently I bought a used Badger 200 for a friend, the owner evidently only used the "just spray thinner through when finished painting" method of cleaning, it was LOADED with dried layers of acrylic paint internally. I tried alcohol, then lacquer thinner, it worked marginally better than the former, but hardly touched the layers. Then a 10-15 minute nose down soak in Acetone, a few swipes with tiny cotton swabs, an interdental brush, spotlessly clean then. One should be careful to not let the Acetone get into the needle bearings or air valves though, it might well be too hot for them.

Patrick

I would imagine that lacquer thinner, being a petroleum distillate based product, IIRC, would be more hazardous than denatured alcohol. Alcohols are usually a distillate of plant products. But this is strictly semi educated guesswork on my part. The only other thing that I could recommend if you are that concerned about this stuff is to use some sort of non permeable gloves such as medical type, to protect your hands.