A few questions regarding Vallejo paints

here it is in  winter camo. the basecoat is VALLEJO AV panzer yellow airbrushed over an enamel primer. it sat for a week and today i put the silly putty and painted. the silly putty didn't want to stick and 1/72 is more delicate to handle than 1/35. i airbrushed it with VALLEJO ivory (NOT AV).that took a lot of thinner and 30psi but, other than right rear fender no run problems. lots of passes but i wasn't concerned if it didn't cover well. i sat it aside, cleaned the airbrush and then removed the silly putty so it sat for maybe 5 minutes after painting before removing the silly putty.

have some touching up to do and decals before final weathering. may try my hand at a small snow base.

Yep, that's what I do with the Iwata cleaner. I'd forgotten the Vallejo works the same way.

I have a squirty bottle from Hobby Lobby for the diluted mix. Rather handy if you're using a gravity feed a/b.

waynec

GREG, SPOTS thanks.

i hit the LHS and picked up some VALLEJO airbrush cleaner and a PEGASUS 1/72 soviet BA-6 6x6 armored car (2 in kit and i am building a 1/35 BA-10).

what a concept, i read the instructions on the cleaner and it says use full strength for cleaning but dilute it 50% with water for flushing between colors.

Sounds like a good day at the LHS, Wayne. :)

GREG, SPOTS thanks.

i hit the LHS and picked up some VALLEJO airbrush cleaner and a PEGASUS 1/72 soviet BA-6 6x6 armored car (2 in kit and i am building a 1/35 BA-10).

Spots, that sounds about normal. I have less dry tip with longer sessions and relatively high paint flow. Detail painting with lots of on and off flow (mottling, for example) is a different story.

Wayne, glad to help, hope what I said pans out true for you.

I buy Iwata Media cleaner because I know it works with Vallejo, and can buy it in larger size. My last 32 oz bottle lasted me almost a year.

I was in my early stages with Vallejo when I was using Testors Universal Acrylic Airbrush Cleaner, so I can't recall if it was effective or not. Seems I had a bottle of Vallejo's own a/b cleaner at one point, can't recall for sure.

Tamiya acrylic thinner will break it down rather well.  I have to constantly clean the needle during long spray sessions and dipping a q-tip in Tamiya's thinner takes it right off.  But yeah, it almost has a rubbery, latex texture.  I've made it a habit to push a thiner soaked cloth in the cup and rotate the needle as I pull it out so that that I don't drag that junk all the way through the brush.

Greg

Wayne, Vallejo + Windex (or ammonia) = a horrible gunky mess that is a total pain to clean.

After doing that, I'd recommend a deep clean with lacquer thinner. Or a ride in an ultrasonic cleaner (if you have one), or both. Been there, done that. What a mess.

I use Iwata Medea airbrush cleaner diluted about 1:2 with distilled water, have no trouble cleaning up Vallejo. Any airbrush cleaner for acrylics should work. I wouldn't think alcohol plays well with Vallejo, haven't tried cleaning with it......but I've never tried it myself so not sure.

I spend maybe 45-60 secs cleaning after a Vallejo session, if that.

hey GREG thanks. i like the paint. that explains my issue. i don't have to spend a lot of time cleaning with MMA or TAMIYA or POLYS. i'll pick some up. i have BADGER and TESTORS and AZTEC cleaners.also have a friend with an ultrasonic. will not put this in my other airbrush so i still have one working.

Wayne, Vallejo + Windex (or ammonia) = a horrible gunky mess that is a total pain to clean.

After doing that, I'd recommend a deep clean with lacquer thinner. Or a ride in an ultrasonic cleaner (if you have one), or both. Been there, done that. What a mess.

I use Iwata Medea airbrush cleaner diluted about 1:2 with distilled water, have no trouble cleaning up Vallejo. Any airbrush cleaner for acrylics should work. I wouldn't think alcohol plays well with Vallejo, haven't tried cleaning with it......but I've never tried it myself so not sure.

I spend maybe 45-60 secs cleaning after a Vallejo session, if that.

Chrisk-k

Tucohoward

After reading through this thread, the question I have is, what is the upside to this paint? There are a lot of good paints out there. Is it really worth the trouble?

Jay

 I know one can make Vallejo work and some people love it. But I prefer paints that just work. Also, since IPA, Windex and even Vallejo's own cleaner don't remove dried Vallejo paint, cleaning an airbrush can be tricky.

i painted VALLEJO on thursday after field stripping both airbrushes. flushed it with windex and and BADGER cleaner and still had to field strip the airbrush again tonight.  would alcohol work better than ammonia because this cleaning gunk out is annoying. never had that problem with MMA or TAMIYA. 

I do use and like Vallejo for brush painting. I even have some bottles of Model Air, but after reading this thread I probably won't bother trying it. I am something of a paint junkie and have a lot of different stuff. At this point, though, most of it will go unused since I got onto Mr. Color. Sprays great, and I just hit it with the hair dryer and mask immediately. I can't imagine waiting days to get on with painting. Life is too short, and too many models to build.

Jay

I like the dropper bottles too.  They seem to keep things cleaner and I waste less paint.  I suppose this is going to come down to not being able to have the best of both worlds and having to pick one.  I like the lack of smell of Vallejo (I get migraine headaches and solvents are a quick trigger) but I guess I'm too clumsy to use the stuff.  I painted a Spitfire with Tamiya acrylics and nearly the entire plane was covered in frog tape when I was doing the camo... not a single paint lift and I was treating it like enamel.  I hear that Tamiya brushes terrible though.

I took some photos of the paint problems before realizing that the wife took the card out of the camera. Doh!

Oh, and I came up with a masking technique for fragile paints that I've not seen before.  I slipped a couple of socks over the wings and stitched them together with small copper wire so that I could paint the nose and not do further damage.  Worked like a charm! :)

Jay, I like Vallejo for the way it lays down, both handbrushing (Model Color) and airbrushing (Model Air) and the range of colors available, as Chris mentioned).

On Chris' a/b cleaning comment above. I typically use Iwata Medea airbrush cleaner and occasionally lacquer thinner for a thorough cleaning. No problems really.

What I don't like about Vallejo: dry tip issues, and using it for mottling ....well, it just takes too much fiddling.

On masking/lifting: I let it cure a day or two before masking, and make darned sure the tape is de-tacked, haven't had a problem. Yet, anyway. This is over a base primer of Tamiya or some other good primer. I've not been brave enough to try Vallejo primer, Vallejo paint, then mask ....yet (but I see that Tate mentions above he is having no problems with same). I do use Vallejo primer on interior surfaces and such all the time because I like the way it lays down.

Oh, and I find the dropper bottles incredibly convenient. ( I realise some folks absolutely hate them, though)

Tucohoward

After reading through this thread, the question I have is, what is the upside to this paint? There are a lot of good paints out there. Is it really worth the trouble?

Jay

Vallejo paintbrushes extremely well and offers a lot of colors. It's not that a few people have experienced problems with Vallejo. Poor adhesion of Vallejo is well-documented at other modeling sites. I know one can make Vallejo work and some people love it. But I prefer paints that just work. Also, since IPA, Windex and even Vallejo's own cleaner don't remove dried Vallejo paint, cleaning an airbrush can be tricky.

I find their paint very good for both the airbrush and brush.  When properly cured it will not peel off when covered with masking tape is removed.

After reading through this thread, the question I have is, what is the upside to this paint? There are a lot of good paints out there. Is it really worth the trouble?

Jay

pardon me 35 to 40 psi

interesting hearing all these issues with vallejo. I use model air and vallejo primer a lot ( also a lot of ak interactive and ammo of mig) When I first started using it I had some issues with paint lifting. Once I changed my approach I haven't had any problems since. I prime with vallejo, let that cure for at least 24hrs. Then I hit it with thin coats of model air, let that cure at least 24 hours again, then mask. I airbrush both straight out of the bottle at 25 to 40 psi. Works for me everytime

I've sprayed Vallejo primers and Model Air straight from the bottle. I've paint-brushed Model Color straight from the bottle. The result was always the same; Vallejo is more fragile than other paints I've used.

The other thing I was thinking, CN, is the paint could be overthinned.  I do find their paint easy to damage at times, but others it seems pretty solid.  Maybe it was a reaction with the flow retarder?  Being as I don't use flow retarder, though do use their thinners, I suspect it is in the thinning ratio.  

From their site:

5.4.I have read about the use of the Drying Retarder with Model Air, and also of the Airbrush Cleaner.

Some airbrush specialists use a few drops of these products or distilled water to improve the flow and delay slightly the need to interrupt the process of painting to clean the airbrush during use, but this may also affect the quality of the sprayed paint and is a question of practice and technique. The Airbrush Thinner 71.061(see above) is the most commonly used auxiliary product.

5.3. If I want to use a thinner, what product and in what proportion do you recommend?

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-->Our airbrush specialists claim that a thinner is not necessary, but they consider it can be used up to a ratio of 1:3. The Vallejo Airbrush Thinner (Ref. 71.061) does not change the adherence or coverage of the Model Air colors , and delays the need for cleaning the airbrush.

Wayne, I'm not sure you HAVE to wait as long as I do, I suppose I tend towards the safe side, once bitten.

I touched up the damaged spots yesterday afternoon.  To add insult to injury the tape pulled up the paint around the area I was trying to fix and it had been sitting for a week!  Even after sticking it to my forehead and jeans to de-tack it.  Strangely, the light gray paint on the underside seemed to stick well but was still easily damaged when I rested the model on the side of the box.  

I'm handling this thing with kid gloves until I can get some future on it.  The major stuff is done so I'm painting the rest indoors since the smell is minimal (one of the advantages of acrylic paints).  It now only rests on soft towels, is covered with a rag and I've pulled my fingernails off with lineman's pliers in an attempt to prevent future damage.

Going back to Tamiya after this.

i just base coated my 1/72 (the one true scale) JAGDTIGER with vallejo av dark yellow. it's sitting now. seriously 2 days to cure the paint?  i paint MMA or tamiya in the morning and silly putty camo in the afternoon with no problems. i do prime everything with ACE HARDWARE NOW gray primer.

I have been using Vallejo paints for several years now, and have had a lot of paint lift on me. Along the way, I've found a few tricks that usually work for me. First off, I will echo what Chris said about their primer, a fabulous dust collector. I use AK Interactive white these days (their grey serms to clog my Aztek needles). It is workable. This said, I start with a light scuffing of my model, either with 1000 grit polish cloth or very fine Scotchbrite. When I'm applying Model Air (always through my airbrush) I work, as Greg said, around 20 to 25 psi. I move fast and light, in a few thin layers. As for thinning, I have found there seems to be no universal formula. Their light colours are very thin, their darker colours usually thicker, at least in my experience. For any pale shade, I normally only add one drop of thinner to a paint cup, if at all. For their darker shades, I might add a half as much thinner as I do paint. This part I play by eye, aiming for the consistency I find straight from a bottle of their white paint. Temperature and humidity seem to effect things for me at times, but not so much when I thin the paints very lightly. My last trick is with my masking tape. If I open a pack of Tamiya tape and leave it exposed to atmosphere for about 2 weeks, I find it far less tacky than a brand new roll, and this is what I prefer. I detack the tape (after being exposed to atmosphere) between 8 to 10 times on my wrist or forehead before applying it. My tape does not stick hard, but it covers. If I find it lifting, I use stcky tape over the de-tacked tape. This way I have a light bond to the paint. Lastly, of course, I paint with the tape edge, not against it. I have never used a flow aid or retarder. I find their thinner does that for me. I've had better luck with these techniques, not perfection, but better. I also try to leave any layer of paint 2 to 4 days before masking or handling or working over it, when I am patient enough to do so. Just my 2 cents, and I hope it helps.

I have also had adhesion problems with Model Color. I was so excited to find a really nice sandy color to use for a 'bare wood' base. I painted a propeller with it and after drying could easily scratch it right off with a fingernail. I scolded myself for skipping the primer step. I removed the paint and sprayed some spraypaint primer on and then repainted with the same result. :(

Chris

I have used Vallejo primers, Model Air and Model Color.  All of them have the worst adhesion of any paints I've ever used.  

Even the Vallejo primer doesn't bite the plastic surface; instead it forms a rubber-like coat on the surface.  Thus, it can be lifted easily and cannot be sanded.  My Vallejo primers are collecting dust.

Model Air sprays much worse than Tamiya & Testor acrylics even when I add a flow enhancer and a retarder.  

I do use Model Color for paint-brushing.  No acrylic paint hand-brushes better than Vallejo.  But because of its poor adhesion, I get super careful till I apply a top coat.

No need to apologize for helping!  I'll take all that I can get.

I did spray some straight out of the bottle as a test when I first got it back in the summer but it was way hot then and it seemed to be very grainy hence why I purchased the flow enhancer.  Speaking of which, yes, I was adding a drop right out of the bottle.  I was not aware it too had to be diluted so heavily.  On the videos I watched they used it straight out of the bottle.  They may have already premixed it and didn't mention it.  That could very well be a big part of the problem.

The ratio is a bit heavy on the thinner but it's a Eduard kit and the moulded detail is nice but very shallow.  I'm trying to be careful with paint build up.

It's supposed to be in the 60s this weekend.  I have a few more spots to paint (and touch up) so I'll try it again Saturday.  It will have dried for a week by then.

Thanks again!

Edit:  I double checked the instructions on the airbrush flow enhancer and it recommend 1-2 drops per 10 drops of paint.  Maybe they have different kinds.

It might be the flow enhancer.

That depends on if you mean you put "one drop of Flow Aid" in your paint mixture before spraying,,,,,,or if you mixed it 1 drop to 20 drops of water and then "put in one drop of the Flow Aid mixture" into your paint and thinner mix. If you are using it straight out of the bottle, you are using it at 20 times the strength it is designed to be used at.

If you didn't use Flow Aid, then the directions would probably be different.

Rex

The rubbery feeling paint finally goes away, but it takes forever.

Now that we've determined that you are using Model Air, I'd have to say something is wrong indeed. Back when I was having the rubbery, fragile problem I was doing a lot of experimenting including mixing stuff that probably didn't belong.

Another thought, at 20:8:1 (Model Air:Vallejo thinner:flow retarded), I wonder if the paint might be a little too thin? I've gone 4:1 Model Air:thinner, when I've gone 3:1, results are inconsistent at best.

Out of curiosity, have you tried spraying straight, unthinned? Maybe try a test and see how it compares. I shoot it un-thinned fairly regularly.

I've given up on mixing flow enhancer with Vallejo, at least for now. I agree that it might have contributed to the problem. I've never sprayed below 65 degrees, but I reckon the cold could have contributed too.

BTW, I use and like Vallejo primer. I've not yet had the opportunity to use it under Model Air and then mask. And I'll test before I do that.

And try upping the PSI above 20, just see if it makes any difference. I'd say 25 max, 23 ideal. At least with my brushes.

Future is an interesting idea. Vallejo does not sand very well.

Sorry about the long-winder reply again, spots.

Greg, did the ones with the rubbery paint ever harden up or is it still fragile?

I've heard the same about Model Color.  Several of the youtube videos about Vallejo products pointed out the differences as well.  This was Model Air that I used.  I used around 20 psi with multiple thin coats.  I'm starting to suspect that the cooler weather combined with the flow enhancer (which may not have been needed) prevented the paint from drying between the thin coats and made it act like 1 thick coat and, as Marcus suggested, I didn't let it cure long enough before taping it off.

One of the youtube builder's videos mentioned spraying a light coat of Future on Vallejo paint as soon as it could be handled and that allowed it to be sanded as soon as the Future was dry.  He could not explain how it worked but he started sanding a few minutes after spraying.  That was interesting.  Lots to learn about this stuff.

Thanks guys.