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Needle diameter and fine lines? A lesson in airbrush design

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  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:23 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by saltydog

mike, again, what shade of brown is your nose? LOL. later.


"A sound heart is life to the body, But envy is rottenness to the bones." -Proverbs 14:30

Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

Mike

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:18 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jfrejo

Well, I know I am new here on this board and I don't want to stir up any trouble but I have been airbrushing for many years and have refurbished and rebuilt airbrushes including making my own parts. The 155/360 was designed as a general airbrush but not for doing detail work and making thin lines. The Omni's can spray a thinner line because it has a smaller nozzle than the Badger 155/360. I can not get as fine a line with my Badger155 or 100lg med head as I can with my HP-C or my 100lg wi/fine head or any of my other airbrushes with smaller nozzles. Yes, needle design does make a difference as I have ground quite a few for myself and noticed it first hand but nozzle size does have a direct relation as to the size of line you will get and larger nozzles flow more paint. That being said you need to look at what type of paint you will be spraying and decide if your airbrush can handle it. For most modeling I would stay in the .3mm-.5mm nozzle range, the smaller size for detail spraying.
John


John,

Your point is a valid one and is well taken. My point was not that needle taper alone was the main factor in how fine an airbrush will spray, but it is the main factor in most airbrushes. As you stated nozzle size does play an important role but that is, as you stated, more relegated to illustration type airbrushes such as the Sotar 2020 and the Iwata Micron, etc with the proper paints than can reliably spray through these airbrushes.

Mike

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Lower Alabama
Posted by saltydog on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 8:35 PM
mike, again, what shade of brown is your nose? LOL. later.
Chris The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 5:24 PM
Well, I know I am new here on this board and I don't want to stir up any trouble but I have been airbrushing for many years and have refurbished and rebuilt airbrushes including making my own parts. The 155/360 was designed as a general airbrush but not for doing detail work and making thin lines. The Omni's can spray a thinner line because it has a smaller nozzle than the Badger 155/360. I can not get as fine a line with my Badger155 or 100lg med head as I can with my HP-C or my 100lg wi/fine head or any of my other airbrushes with smaller nozzles. Yes, needle design does make a difference as I have ground quite a few for myself and noticed it first hand but nozzle size does have a direct relation as to the size of line you will get and larger nozzles flow more paint. That being said you need to look at what type of paint you will be spraying and decide if your airbrush can handle it. For most modeling I would stay in the .3mm-.5mm nozzle range, the smaller size for detail spraying.
John
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:28 PM
lol you think needles are all that matter? try http://www.andypenaluna.com/history/1879.html for the origional airbrush. the first ever.
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Canada
Posted by RichardI on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 8:38 AM
Very good info, Mike. As an Engineer what you are saying makes perfect sense. As the proud owner of a brand new, shiny Omni I can also attest to the accuracy of what you're saying. Someone has obviously studied the details of an airbrush and designed in the very best features. Good old Yankee ingenuity. Nothing beats a properly designed tool. Us guys who have no artistic ability need the tool to do as much of the work as possible. the Omni, IMO does that for me.

Rich Cool [8D]

On the bench: 1/48 Revell PBY Catalina 0A-10A. Next up: Moebius 1/24 Chariot from Lost in Space.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:20 AM
Snowy,

Thanks for the vote of confidence my friend, but I am not near knowledgable enough to write a book. Big Smile [:D]
Maybe Badger would do that if enough people asked. Wink [;)]

Mike

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:58 AM
Thanks for the lesson once again Mike. Keep em comin. You know you should write a book and put the wealth of info you share with us here into it. I haven't seen any books available with that kind of info explained properly, exploding all the myths and setting people on the right path. It would be an invaluable reference to experienced users and newbies alike. If you do I'll pre-order a copy (and I'm not joking!).

Cheers...Snowy.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 11:01 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MusicCity

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV
I am half Irish and I would love to learn them myself. Thumbs Up [tup]


Sooooo .... does this mean you would have to change your screen name to MikeO'V Big Smile [:D] (couldn't resist)


Aye laddie!
Where's my pint 'O Guinness? Big Smile [:D]Wink [;)]

Mike

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: USA
Posted by MusicCity on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 10:11 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV
I am half Irish and I would love to learn them myself. Thumbs Up [tup]


Sooooo .... does this mean you would have to change your screen name to MikeO'V Big Smile [:D] (couldn't resist)
Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Brooklyn
Posted by wibhi2 on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:43 PM
Hey, Thanks for the education. That's 2 things I got to learn today.

3d modelling is an option a true mental excercise in frusrtation
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posted by uilleann on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV

I agree 100% Brian.

You play the bagpipes? Very cool! Cool [8D]
I am half Irish and I would love to learn them myself. Thumbs Up [tup]

Mike


LOL and you think modeling is time consuming, frustrating and exopensive? Try about $8,000 to as much as $25,000 for a full set, then 21 or so years just to learn the bloody things well, and that's not counting the 2-15 year lead time while you're waiting for them to be hand made half-way around the globe! Big Smile [:D] If ever your significan other gets on your case for spending too much time on the model bench, just remind them it COULD BE WORSE! I COULD PLAY PIPES!!Laugh [(-D]

(I think this is why I just don't let silly things like an airbrush bug me so much - when you have a $100 hand made chanter reed split on you in the middle of a concert, THEN you have a right to get bent up a bit!)
"I may not fly with the eagles.....but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:16 PM
I agree 100% Brian.

You play the bagpipes? Very cool! Cool [8D]
I am half Irish and I would love to learn them myself. Thumbs Up [tup]

Mike

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posted by uilleann on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:02 PM
It's not the size of the wave (or needle, or opening) but the motion of the ocean (or skill of the modeler!)

Again, it comes down to practicing with your own brush to come to know it inside and out. What works with it - and what doesn't. How well does it spray X brand paint and what sort of thinning may I need to use to achieve a given effect with it?

Remember the first time you opened a tube of Testors model glue and tried to glue up a canopy on that cool new playe? Remember the mess?! It's just a matter of mastering the tool for the particular application. Be patient with yourselves most of all, and your results will show it.

Above anything else - HAVE FUN! I mean if you're not enjoying what you're doing...why do it? I play Irish traditional music (Irish bagpipes, whistles drum flute etc.) as a hobby too, and I can't tell you how many folks in the scene think it all has to do with this schnazzy new whistle I just paid several hundred bucks for, or the quality of the wood in the bagpipe chanter. What it really comes down to is skill of the musician. Nothing and I mean NOTHING beats someone who's practiced. Most of the very best musicians still swear by the crappy cheap $6 tin whistles! Go figure...but the make it work!

Enjoy!!!

Brian~
"I may not fly with the eagles.....but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Needle diameter and fine lines? A lesson in airbrush design
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 8:28 PM
I often hear people on the forum ask what diameter a Badger or Omni needle is because they have been exposed to a certain Japanese airbrush company's literature which always lists the needle diameter. The diameter of the needle has nothing to do with how fine it will spray.
The key to the needle and fine lines is the grade to the tip (how gradual the needle comes to a tip). The more gradual the angle (sharper the point) the finer the line the airbrush will create. This is why if you look at the grade/point on the fine needle of the Sotar you will find it to be the sharpest needle point on the market, which is what enables it to create the finest line achievable. Most people want to know the size of the opening of the tip. They think this has something to do with the fineness of the line, when in fact all the opening of the tip notably effects is the allowability of varying viscosities of material and varying particle sizes (usually pigment) to pass through it and how much overspray an airbrush will create. This is why the tip openings on the Badger 155s, 200s and 360s are the slightest bit larger - because it provides more forgiveness for larger pigments and heavier viscosities, hence it is more forgiving and will clog less. The 100s, 150s, 200-20, and Sotar on the other hand have smaller openings and will be more sensitive as far as clogging goes, but they give less overspray (tighter, not finer lines). There is also the factor of how the grade of the needle plays into the equation. A needle with a more gradual angle to the tip (sharper/pointier) will also lead to more clogging. Hence the Sotar again is more sensitive in regard to clogging. This is why Badger engineers designed the step angles on the 155, 200, and 360 needles - the dual step in grade to the tip further lessens the likelyhood of clogging, yet still allows for precise atomization. These guns (155, 200, 360) are for more general applications and are far more foolproof because of their designs. The 100, 150, 200-20 and especially the SOTAR, because of their tip/needle designs are more detail oriented.
This is the most common misnomer related to airbrushes and their line fineness, but you can see why Badger generally has given up on trying to explain this to people who unknowingly think all that matters is the size of the paint tip opening. Because Iwata's is smaller they think the Iwata airbrush is better, when in fact there is far more to it and the Iwata is more likely to clog and often times does.

My thanks to Ken Schlotfeldt at Badger for enlightening me to these facts.

Mike

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
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