Acetone vs. lacquer thinner?

I'll take a shot. Many UK balsa/tissue modelers use enamel paints, thinned with dope, referred to as "cellulose base." If I remember correctly, cellulose thinners were also referred to as being "lacquer thinners."

At any rate, lacquer thinner does work OK with enamels as a thinner, but it is hotter than enamel reducer and lacquer should not be sprayed over enamel painted surfaces. It can very well attack and wrinkle the underlying enamel.

I sometimes use lacquer thinner in both enamels and acrylics, when I want to ensure a good "bite" for adhesion to the plastic. But for emphasis, I never spray lacquer thinned paint over any previously painted enamel surface, whether primer or anything else.

As always, test thoroughly on scrap platic to ensure a good application and avoid damage to the model.

Hope it helps.

Patrick

Thank you Patrick! It definitely gives me something to think about especially when it comes to spraying it over other paints.  I sometimes forget just how "hot" lacquer thinner can be especially in regards to its reaction with other paints.  

When I got home last night, I took a look at my bottle of dope thinner.  I think it said one of the ingredients was "MEK".  I thought MEK was also refered to as (or a key part of) Tennax.  So am I incorrect in thinking that dope thinner could also be used as a glue???

Eric

PS.  I find that the more I learn, the more confused I get.  LOL!

echolmberg

Thank you Patrick! It definitely gives me something to think about especially when it comes to spraying it over other paints.  I sometimes forget just how "hot" lacquer thinner can be especially in regards to its reaction with other paints.  

When I got home last night, I took a look at my bottle of dope thinner.  I think it said one of the ingredients was "MEK".  I thought MEK was also refered to as (or a key part of) Tennax.  So am I incorrect in thinking that dope thinner could also be used as a glue???

Eric

PS.  I find that the more I learn, the more confused I get.  LOL!

 

There are two other members that know quite a lot about the subject of these chemicals, Bick and Don Stauffer, sorry but I'm not that familiar. Let's see if they'll stop by and share a bit of information with us, I'd like to know more myself

Patrick.

Let ME shine a light on this subject. MEK , or rather M.E.K. is short for Methyl Ethyl Ketone. This is the main ingredient in Lacquer thinner, and is highly toxic- made from petroleum distillates. It's also highly acidic, and will melt plastics which is why you don't want to use it, or any products with this in it. Acetone is an alcohol used as a dryer in lacquer thinner as it has a high "flash off" or rather it has a very quick dry time. It too is made from petroleum distillates.

What you refer to as "cellulose paints" is Nitrocellulose lacquer which is what is most commonly referred to as simply lacquer - NOT acrylic! There is no acrylic formulation of this regardless of other paint manufacturers description of it. There is a high solvent based version of acrylic unlike nitrocellulose which a totally different animal in its' formulation. This is hot chemically and therefore is too strong to be used with any other paint type. It causes what's known as "crazing" or the hazing white residue left over from the chemical reaction with other substrates. This is caused by M.E.K. when using lacquer thinner. Any way you slice it; lacquer and it's thinner are both too hot for most applications for other paints unless you're cleaning paint equipment, which is what it's thinner is truly made for.

REDUCER is used for cutting paint - not thinner which is what was used years ago, but sometimes could cause whitening of the finish which is why reducer was introduced. you can use acetone to cut paint without this effect. I use it to cut all my paint now, but I only use lacquer thinner very rarely these days since acetone will do the same job without worrying about it ruining my seals in my guns, or projects. It's much more stable and it dries quickly.  I hope that this will answer your question fully.

~ Cobra Chris

Acetone is a specific chemical.  The term lacquer thinner is a generic term, meaning anything used to thin lacquer. It often contains, acetone, or mek, or a combination, or other similar solvents. It is hard to know exactly what is in a container labeled merely paint thinner or lacquer thinner. I forget what exactly dope thinner is- I haven't used the stuff in years, but am no curious, so I will look it up :-)

Well, it turns out harder than I thought to find out exactly what dope thinner is.  And complicating the search is the fact, which I had forgot, is that there are both butyrate and nitrate dopes, and apparently the thinners are not the same.  Some things I found said that acetone will thin both nitrate and butyrate dope.  Looks like thinner makers are somewhat proprietary about their products.  There was one ad I found for "generic" nitrate dope thinner, but it did not say what it contained.

Personally, I like to use turpentine or mineral spirits to thin enamel, and will only buy thinners that specifically say they contain such.  I find such thinners have less odor than lacquer thinners, easier on my hands, and don't dissolve my workbench and everything on it if I spill it :-)

Chris and Don, thank you for the fantastic responses!  It's like I said before, the more I learn, the more I realize how much I never knew.  I guess my original question/post was looking at the topic from different angles.  What I mean by that is that I'd like to buy a larger amount of the correct item at a hardware store so I don't have to shell out so much money for a tiny bottle at the hobby shop.  At the same time, I was kind of hoping to find that "one fluid which will do it all" in terms of cleaning my brushes and airbrush as well as thinning my paints to an airbrush consistency.  

One thing I noticed the other day was that, while using Model Master gloss black, my usual mineral spirits from Home Depot did NOTHING to get the paint off my brush nor would it thin the paint for airbrushing.  I mixed the low odor mineral spirits with the MM gloss black and it was like mixing oil and water.  In fact, the paint just got even more gummy.  When I put my paint brush (which had MM gloss black on it) into my jar of dope thinner, it cleaned off not only the black paint, but also a bunch of other paint that had been inside the brush for lord knows how long!

The dope thinner has been doing a great job at cleaning everything as well as for thinning my paints for airbrushing.  I am, however, worried about it buggering up underlying paint layers on my builds especially with it being as "hot" as it is.  If acetone is not as hot, then maybe I'll give that route a try.  While I've been loving how well the dope thinner has been working, I'm also worried if it's detrimental to my airbrush.

Thank you to everyone who's helped me with this!!

Eric

There are different kinds of thinners depending upon the paint. Nitrate, buyrate, Aerogloss, lacquer, and enamel all use different thinners. There are a a whole category of acrylic paints and thinners. But to this question, Nitrate (Sig probably) uses nitrate thinner, butyrate uses butyrate thinner, Aerogloss uses toluol, lacquer uses lacquer thinner and enamel uses turpentine or mineral spirits. THe makeup of the thinner depends on the manufacturer - Nitrate thinner contains acetone and something to slow its drying time (M.E.K.), butyrate contains acetone + butyl alcohol, lacquer thinner contains whatever (acetone, M.E.K., ) and so on. As Don mentions, thinners have different properties/ingredients dependent upon who made them. Sig Dope thinner is acetone+M.E.K. but does not work well as a solvent for styrene because it contains to little M.E.K. It may help adhesion. Acetone is probably the widest used solvent in all thinners. And, M.E.K is not dangerous to use  (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0179.html) particularly in small amounts.

Head....exploding...full of....knowledge!!!  LOL!  As I look back on things, I really wish I paid more attention in my college chemisty classes.  No, correct that...I really wish I hadn't dropped out of my college chem class!  One of the many reasons why I changed my major after my first year.

Eric

Eric -

See? I told you Don and Bick were a wealth of knowledge, quite good at explaining things, even I can understand them. (:>)

Here is my rather simple method for bench products. First, I stick with major brand names, from the paint store. My store is an auto body shop supplier, I buy DuPont products, using only enamel reducer, lacquer reducer and acetone.

Lacquer reducer, (or thinner,) is my preferred cleaning agent for after spray use, acetone is for cleaning my brushes.

I first noticed how effective it was when I placed an old brush in a jar of fresh acetone. It had a wad of old dried paint, at the metal ferrule that holds the hairs. Man, it just immediately began to dissolve that wad, after changing the acetone a couple of times and agitating the brush in the jar, it came out really clean and very usable.

I can't say for sure I bought the best stuff available, but I think it's more likely I did, as major name brand stuff has to be better than the 10 cents a gallon products at some locations.

And I too find it less than palatable to spend more for a few ounces of stuff at the hobby shop, then a quart of name brand at the paint store.

Let us know how you make out with what Don and Bick shared, and I thank them both for all of their input. I learned a lot from what they wrote.

Patrick 

I and several others I know have had less than ideal results from the low-odor thinners. I reverted to regular smelly stuff- I find it works better.  Still smells a lot better than lacquer thinner.  THAT stuff is really strong.

patrick206

Eric -

See? I told you Don and Bick were a wealth of knowledge, quite good at explaining things, even I can understand them. (:>)

now how you make out with what Don and Bick shared, and I thank them both for all of their input. I learned a lot from what they wrote.

Patrick 

 

~ Cobra (dumb as dirt) Chris

Chris, I don't think anything was meant as a slight towards your extensive knowledge on the subject matter.  If you want to talk "dumb as dirt", you need not look any further than the picture of me in my avatar.  In fact, I found out recently that dirt actually felt bad for me when it found out how much I don't know about stuff!  

I admire anyone and EVERYONE who knows all about this stuff.  My brain just can't wrap it's tiny T-Rex-like arms around the subject of chemisty so I greatly appreciate anyone who can help me out with topics like this.  I always liken asking questions on this forum to climbing a steep mountain.  You put the question out there and people always reach down to those beneath them to lift them up.  For that, I thank everyone!!!  So don't go around feeling that your assistance wasn't appreciated or welcome.  It was most definitely both.

Eric

(Edit) PS:  Yesterday after work, I stopped off at the hardware store to pick up a bunch of supplies for some home-improvement projects on my "honey-do" list.  I was so ticked off when I got home.  I forgot the acetone!!!!

What an informative thread. Now to try to remember some of this stuff.

Thanks for the info, gents.

Hi, Cobra Chris -

There was no intention of diminishing, or ignoring your post. As I go back to the start Eric asked for input, there were responses, yours was fully detailed and helpful. Eric thanked you, acknowleging the benefit in your post, then the post continued on.

My intent in suggesting Don and Bick was for even more information and applications, often more ideas and uses can surface with further discussions, everyone has something of benefit to pass along. Don and Bick are helpful in so many ways, as are you, Chris.

My reference to Don and Bick was because I had mentioned them, hoping they would stop in and share a bit of their knowledge, which they did. I felt it appropriate to acknowledge their input, since I had invited it.

It seems clear you felt insulted, please accept my assurance that it was not at all deliberate, you are a knowledgeable and respected member of the FSM forums.

Friends again?

Patrick 

Hi guys!

Just wanted to follow up on this topic.  My wife was at the hardware store two days ago while I was at work.  I asked her to pick up a bottle of acetone for me and she had it waiting for me on my hobby bench by the time I got home from work.

Most of all, I wanted to thank EVERYONE (can't stress that enough) who chimed in on my original question.  I really did learn a lot.  I figure tonight I'll start painting the 1/48 S-3 Viking that has been gathering dust on my work bench.  I'm especially glad to know that acetone won't bugger up the seals of my airbrush and won't ruin any of my current or future products.

Each time I ask a question on this forum, all the responses advance my modeling knowledge.  The kits I finish as a result belong to all those who helped me out either directly or indirectly.  Don't worry...if I screw them up, then I alone take the blame.  LOL!

Best wishes,

Eric

Your wife goes into the hardware store? Buys stuff? WOW good for her.

Mine sits in the truck and "I  dont need anything in there" s me.  But to be fair I won't go into a jewerly store/counter with her, eather.

Glad you have your answer to the Lacquer- Acetone question. Now I can copy you and will know all my problems are solved-----_{OK I know, but it was fun for a second there}.

LOL!  When it comes to home improvement stores, my wife and I are like two babes in the woods.  We don't always know what we're looking for but if the two of us can agree on an item, then it must be the right one.  If we actually got the right item, then we share in the success.  If we end up getting a wrong item, then at least we each only shoulder half the blame.  

Last week she was at the store because she was picking out some paint colors for our basement renovation.  If the paint colors don't involve olive drab or neutral grey, then I leave the color selection up to her.

Eric