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Patriot action/upgrade?

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  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Patriot action/upgrade?
Posted by Johnny1000 on Saturday, December 23, 2017 3:48 PM

Apologies if this has been covered... I tried searching, but I'm not exactly how to search for this.

I'm using a Badger Patriot 105, which I generally like fine, except for the action, which isn't even a little linear. Pulling the trigger back, nothing happens for maybe the first quarter of the pull, then it almost immediately goes from zero to 80%, and then everything after around a third seems to be full blast.

This obviously makes anything where you'd want less than full blast difficult to control. At first I thought it was a learning curve on my part, but after around a year and a half, I think it's just fussy action. (Or my fine motor skills are simply not up to the task.)

I've got a little holiday play money, so I'm thinking about upgrading my airbrush. In addition to much more linear action, I'd like similar or better atomization, and ease of cleaning. Gravity feed, double action. I'm primarily shooting Tamiya and Mr Paint.

Budget is around $200, but I could go higher. I've been mostly looking at Iwata (HP-CS, HP-C Plus) but would consider other brands. 

Thanks!

-J

  • Member since
    October, 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:45 PM

Something is wrong.  The Patriot shouldn't do that.  Before you buy another airbrush, try spraying some ink or food colors and see if you have the same problem.  If it goes away, maybe it's the way you thin your paint.

You don't mention your air source.  With really thin paint, 10 or 15psi should be enough.  thicker paint requires more air pressure.

If it still does it, you might want to send it to Badger for an overhaul.  They will only charge for parts if needed. The Iwatas are fine airbrushes, but you should be able to do a pencil-like line with the Patriot.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Now also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    July, 2013
Posted by modelmaker66 on Saturday, December 23, 2017 8:47 PM

Perfect response Don! Exactly on target.

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM

Don Wheeler

Something is wrong.  The Patriot shouldn't do that.  Before you buy another airbrush, try spraying some ink or food colors and see if you have the same problem.  If it goes away, maybe it's the way you thin your paint.

You don't mention your air source.  With really thin paint, 10 or 15psi should be enough.  thicker paint requires more air pressure.

If it still does it, you might want to send it to Badger for an overhaul.  They will only charge for parts if needed. The Iwatas are fine airbrushes, but you should be able to do a pencil-like line with the Patriot.

Don

Thanks Don.

Sorry, that wasn't clear—I can get fine lines. The problem is that the working area of trigger pull between no material coming out and a lot seems extremely narrow, such that it’s difficult to control the exact amount of paint being expressed in the midrange. I feel like I‘ve heard This comment from others.

Air source is a Passche compressor, can’t remember the model, but it reliably delivers enough air. I tend to thin quite a lot and shoot in the 10-12 psi range.

Thanks

-J

  • Member since
    August, 2012
  • From: Parker City, IN.
Posted by Rambo on Sunday, December 24, 2017 10:50 AM
kick your psi up to around 20psi, with tamiya paint thinned 50/50 I can spray a very fine line with my Iwata Eclipse HP-CS. The patriot should be able to produce about the same. If that doesn't work check your needle make sure it's clean and straight, also check to make sure the needle is moving the entire stroke of the trigger.

Clint

  • Member since
    October, 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:26 AM

The fact that you don't get any paint until you pull back a quarter of the trigger travel made me think you might have a paint or air problem.  You still might want to try some ink or food colors to see what happens.  The Iwata Eclipse comes with a .35mm nozzle and a very sharp needle taper.  You could get something similar for your Patriot for less than $10 with the super detail conversion kit.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Now also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:00 PM

Rambo
kick your psi up to around 20psi, with tamiya paint thinned 50/50 I can spray a very fine line with my Iwata Eclipse HP-CS. The patriot should be able to produce about the same. If that doesn't work check your needle make sure it's clean and straight, also check to make sure the needle is moving the entire stroke of the trigger.

Thanks Rambo.

Yes, the needle is moving the whole stroke of the needle.

The issue it not about being able to make fine lines, but in the lack of linearity in the flow. Since it seems I'm not able to explain this well, I've created to diagram:

 

As you can see, accurate control over anything between nothing and a lot is tricky. What I would like is for there to be a more or less straight line from 0 to 100 on both axis.

 

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:07 PM

Don Wheeler

The fact that you don't get any paint until you pull back a quarter of the trigger travel made me think you might have a paint or air problem.  You still might want to try some ink or food colors to see what happens.  The Iwata Eclipse comes with a .35mm nozzle and a very sharp needle taper.  You could get something similar for your Patriot for less than $10 with the super detail conversion kit.

Don

Thanks Don. 

I've tried different needles (including the super detail kit), tips, paints, air sources, and cleaning procedures, and nothing seems to change the basic needle action. It was like this when I got it, but it was my first dual action AB, so I figured it was just part of the learning curve. Badger has good QA, so I'm figuring its more to do with the design of the brush than a problem AB.

I've found others who have complained about the same thing, so I know it's not just me. 

-J

  • Member since
    October, 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:58 PM

I think you are going to see some of that on any double action airbrush.  I tried to explain possibly why on this page.  But, a quarter stroke is too much.  If you get the Iwata or another airbrush, please let us know how it goes.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Now also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Sunday, December 24, 2017 5:57 PM

Interesting, thanks Don. 

I read that page, and while I was at it, reread most of the rest of your site. There's a lot of good information there. 

Thanks

-J

  • Member since
    August, 2012
  • From: Parker City, IN.
Posted by Rambo on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 9:43 AM
Before I would make the investment on a new airbrush I would send it into badger to have them look it over it would be cheaper that way. Or if money really isn't a issue then go ahead and get the Iwata for a comparison, I love mine I've had a badger in the past and also a aztek that was just dreadful. With my Iwata paint starts flowing moving the trigger at around 5% of its stroke.

Clint

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 11:59 AM

Thanks Rambo, that’s sensible advice.

It being the season of irrational exuberance, last night I went with the second option you mentioned, in the form of an HP-C plus, set to arrive on Friday. Merry Xmas to me. :)

If the Iwata doesn’t answer my needs, I can return and send the Badger in for a checkup, or potentially continue my search while practicing my micro-motor control skills. 

cheers

-J

  • Member since
    July, 2013
Posted by modelmaker66 on Tuesday, December 26, 2017 2:29 PM

Just an fyi, many places do not allow returns on airbrushes if used. Check this.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 6:03 PM

since we are talking Badger 105 Patriot,  i have an original i got at nats in Omaha in 2012(?). i may need a new needle. How do i tell which size i have? it has a single notch iby the bulb. PS i got Don's book on Kindele and it is in the queue.

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    October, 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 10:55 PM

waynec

since we are talking Badger 105 Patriot,  i have an original i got at nats in Omaha in 2012(?). i may need a new needle. How do i tell which size i have? it has a single notch iby the bulb. PS i got Don's book on Kindele and it is in the queue.

Thanks for ordering the book.  I hope you find it useful.

If you see an F stamped on the spray regulator, you need the fine needle, P/N 51-047.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Now also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Thursday, December 28, 2017 6:40 PM

Don It is a Fine so will check with COLPAR HOBBYTOWN my LHS ans see if they have a new needle before going on line. May also try your techniques in book for "smoothing" anty possible hooks. i have basecoated 1/35 RR cars and large AFVs with the fine needle so no point in getting a bigger one since i also do OTS (1/72).

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Friday, January 05, 2018 2:39 PM

Don Wheeler
If you get the Iwata or another airbrush, please let us know how it goes.

I got the Iwata HP-C plus. I haven't had major painting tasks yet, but have poked around a little, and so far really like it. As expected, it's nicely crafted, with good balance, etc. and pushes out nicely atomized paint. 

As far as addressing my big issue with the Patriot, the onset of spray is much smoother and the transition area larger. If the Patriot transfer curve graphs to a steep hockey puck, this is much more of a slight "S" curve. Plus there's a pre-set knob that helps prevent over-enthusiastic or spastic pulls from flooding the work. 

Until I can manage a proper wide coverage brush, the Patriot still has a place, but I think this suits my needs for a lot of what I seem to do, which tends toward the fiddly most of the time.

Thanks again everyone for all the comments and suggestions.

Oh, and Don, I realized I actually bought your book a while ago when I was first contemplating an airbrush, and have been going back through it--it's chock full of helpful advice. I'd recommend for anyone who might be interested in advice getting started, a good overview, or deeper look into airbrushing:
https://www.amazon.com/Dons-Airbrush-Tips-Donald-Wheeler/dp/1500486957/

-J

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