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Painting over Future (meaning on top of a coat of Future)

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  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Painting over Future (meaning on top of a coat of Future)
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 7:46 PM

I can't believe I am starting a thread with Future as the subject. I have almost tossed my laptop out the window seeing one more "Future" thread. Oh well, hate me then...........

So I wanted a nice glossy finish on some black motorcyle kit parts, I hand brushed a 1:1 "Future:water" coat and got a lovely finish.

I needed to hand paint some nuts and bolts and stuff. Starting with Vallejo Model Color (which hand brushes great), the paint just beaded up. I tried some Mission Models. Paint just beaded up. Then it hit me. Duh. the paint is going  to bead up.

So what should I do, paint the detail stuff with a flat water-based clear so the silver paint can 'bite'? I feel like such a newbie.

I think I'm missing something obvious which is why I'm asking.

Maybe a nice silver enamel wouldn't bead up?

-Greg

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 7:57 PM

Yeah, I’d say try an enamel paint. Gloss or Flat, the Future will likely have that same effect on any acrylic paint. I had a similar experience recently.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 8:04 PM

Reach for the bottle.

The little square one.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 8:14 PM

Thanks, friends.

If you recently had a similar experience, Stik, I feel a bit less bad. I just didn't see it coming.

Bill, ha! I have exactly one little square bottle....chrome (now discontinued I think) for painting airplane struts. This is great, an excuse to go to HobbyLobby!!!

Thanks again Stik and Bill.

Hey, it just occured to me if I mess it up, it'll be just like wash, I can swab it right clean.

-Greg

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 8:24 PM

That's true, Greg. It's saved my bacon on more than one canopy where the masking failed. Soak the thing in Windex and start over.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 10:19 PM

Hmmm... Mission Model beaded up? Unusual. What did you do? Did you use something other than their brand of thinner?

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:31 AM

GMorrison

That's true, Greg. It's saved my bacon on more than one canopy where the masking failed. Soak the thing in Windex and start over.

 

Yes

-Greg

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:40 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Hmmm... Mission Model beaded up? Unusual. What did you do? Did you use something other than their brand of thinner?

 

Sheep, before I begin, I know you like Mission Models and you are a big part of the reason I am trying the paint. I'm not having happy times with it. I can't get the metallics to spray, period. I botched a complex masking job with plain old Mission Models red. Everyone loves the stuff, it's pretty obvious to me I'm doing something wrong.

But....I've read thier FAQs and instructions until I am blue in the face. I use nothing but their own thinner and polyurethane. In fairness, I've only tried it a few times. First, the the botched red, then a couple failed attempts to spray metallic colors, and then the hand brush attempt yesterday.

Maybe you can help coach me. I will not give up on the paints. GMorrison mentioned in another thread I might have cross contamination from cleaning airbrush with lacquer thinner and failing to rinse/dry thoroughly. This is very possible, I've always considered residual lacquer thinner harmless. Maybe not with Mission Models.

And now that I think of it, I probably dipped my brush in distilled water before dipping in the Mission Models aluminum color out of habit from painting Vallejo. Oops. I'll try again today with their thinner.

Habits are funny things.

-Greg

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:12 PM

Greg, I can’t see where moistening your brush with distilled water would cause any problems. I’ve done a bit of hand brushing Mission Models paints, and I habitually pre moisten my brush with water and had no ill effects from that. I use plain old tap water for that, which is far less purified than distilled water. After dipping in the water, I blot them off, so the brush is only lightly damp. I prefer to use natural sable hair brushes as opposed to synthetic nylon brushes when hand brushing any acrylics. I just get better results that way. 

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:42 PM

stikpusher

Greg, I can’t see where moistening your brush with distilled water would cause any problems. I’ve done a bit of hand brushing Mission Models paints, and I habitually pre moisten my brush with water and had no ill effects from that. I use plain old tap water for that, which is far less purified than distilled water. After dipping in the water, I blot them off, so the brush is only lightly damp. I prefer to use natural sable hair brushes as opposed to synthetic nylon brushes when hand brushing any acrylics. I just get better results that way. 

 

 

Hmmm, this is what I am after, Mission Model feedback based on actual experience. Thanks, Stik.

BTW, I picked up a little square bottle of Testor's silver enamel, hoping to test it yet tonight.....

-Greg

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:39 PM

Just a thought, but depending upon the Future base coat, and the consistency of the silver enamel paint, the silver paint may behave like a wash due to the very slick surface. 

IF it does that, clean it off with thinner, then perhaps try a dry brush approach... if I’m not mistaken, you’re doing detail work like bolt heads?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:45 PM

stikpusher

Just a thought, but depending upon the Future base coat, and the consistency of the silver enamel paint, the silver paint may behave like a wash due to the very slick surface. 

IF it does that, clean it off with thinner, then perhaps try a dry brush approach... if I’m not mistaken, you’re doing detail work like bolt heads?

 

You got it, and that's what worried me (the wash effect you mentioned). You are a good listener, it is bolt heads and stuff.

I have test results to share. Right is Mission Models metallic. Took two coats and I couln't help the overrun. Left is Testors 'square bottle' silver enamel metallic. One coat, coverage was far superior to either of the acrylics I tried (Vallejo and Mission Models). Edge control was excellent. (viewer may not think so but I never said my hand-painting skills were any good).

I sure appreciate the help here, Stik, Bill, Sheep.

Stik, I fully expected the wash effect you mentioned from the enamel over the Future. I'm still a bit baffled why it was worse with acrylic over acrylic, but at least I know which I prefer now thanks to you guys.

EDIT: forgot to mention the main thing, the enamal paint didn't try to bead one tiny bit over the Future, which was the original complain.

 

-Greg

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:28 PM

You’re quite welcome.

I had not even thought of it either until a few weeks ago when I was applying an acrylic secondary color over a kit that has been Futured for decals. I had bad beading in areas that were more heavily coated in Future than other areas that were not and did not. I blamed it on the paint in my mind. But with you having the same results with a different acrylics paint brand, and the common thread of a heavy Future base coat, it made sense. 

Anyways I’m glad that you had success in dealing with this. 

Future is pretty tough stuff (it is made to be walked upon) and I suspect that most acrylics just don’t have the heat or tooth to get a good grip on a thick smooth coat.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Friday, October 12, 2018 10:19 AM

I wondered what your similar experience was, Stik. That is about as similar as it gets.

I forgot to mention the most important thing in my results post above: absolutely no beading whatsover with the Testors Enamel, you and Bill were spot on.

Plus, I'd forgotton how nice enamel hand paints in many cases.

-Greg

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, October 12, 2018 7:01 PM

Yes, enamels hand brush paint superbly. You cannot beat them. I truly do not understand all the fuss about them. No need to add flow enhancers, urethane, retarders, etc. Airbrushing in a confined space, I get the smell issues that some folks complain about. But most acrylics have their own smells, and certainly any cleaning agents for the airbrush have their own smells.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Friday, October 12, 2018 8:20 PM

Yes, when I started back up in '13, for whatever reason I made up my mind to use acrylics.

I totally forgot, until my test above, how nicely enamels do paint.

I guess 40+ yrs might do that to the old memory. Point is, Stik, point taken!

-Greg

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, October 12, 2018 11:15 PM

Not mention that most acrylic metallics leave quite a bit to be desired. Large pigment flakes, translucense, etc.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Saturday, October 13, 2018 6:46 AM

Sorry to come late to the party but just saw your thread Greg. I’m a Future user and yes Acrylics will bead over Future, enamels won’t. It has to do with its chemical composition creating this issue along with tip dry, ab flow problems etc. Another reason I dislike acrylic paints is poor adhesion to bare plastic except Tamiya and Mr Color which act pretty much like enamels. 

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Saturday, October 13, 2018 11:10 AM

stikpusher

Not mention that most acrylic metallics leave quite a bit to be desired. Large pigment flakes, translucense, etc.

 

Since back, aside from Alclad I have used only acrylic 'metallics'. Just my test above supports your comments. The translucense you mention is truly a big deal.

I'll be trying more enamel metallics in the future, for sure.

-Greg

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Saturday, October 13, 2018 11:14 AM

plasticjunkie

Sorry to come late to the party but just saw your thread Greg. I’m a Future user and yes Acrylics will bead over Future, enamels won’t. It has to do with its chemical composition creating this issue along with tip dry, ab flow problems etc. Another reason I dislike acrylic paints is poor adhesion to bare plastic except Tamiya and Mr Color which act pretty much like enamels. 

 

I appreciate your experienced answer, Ernie.

I feel I should have seen this beading issue coming, it sort of blindsided me.

I guess I missed the smell of Testors enamels anyway. Geeked

-Greg

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