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Thinning VJ Retarder Medium

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  • Member since
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  • From: Somewhere in Ohio...
Thinning VJ Retarder Medium
Posted by DasBeav on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 6:17 PM

I just got some VJ Retarder Medium and realized it is kind of thick. I'm just going to cut it with distilled water. Can anybody give me the ratios of water to retarder? I usually do the "figure it out for myself" but I am already in a modelling funk and this could easily set me back weeks! SmileSmileWink[;)

 Sooner Born...Buckeye Bred.

 

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 6:56 PM

I use Liquitex retarder, also a medium and also thick. I put it in my thinner, thus my thinner becomes the agent and a slower drying thinner, which it needs generally speaking. Even Model Air can use a touch of thinner in it, soooo.....  I make my own thinner and mix 3oz at a time. If I bought commercial thinner, I'd pour off 3oz at a time and put the retarder in the 3oz quantity vs the bulk jug. Then I can adjust it as needed.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:38 PM

Just to make sure we're all apples to apples, Vallejo retarder medium is meant for use on your pallete, for brush painting. Vallejo Flow improver is meant for airbrush use, to reduce dry tip.

You probably already know this, I only chime in because Vallejo's product nomenclature confuses me sometimes.

-Greg

  • Member since
    October, 2016
  • From: Somewhere in Ohio...
Posted by DasBeav on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:40 PM

oldermodelguy

I use Liquitex retarder, also a medium and also thick. I put it in my thinner, thus my thinner becomes the agent and a slower drying thinner, which it needs generally speaking. Even Model Air can use a touch of thinner in it, soooo.....  I make my own thinner and mix 3oz at a time. If I bought commercial thinner, I'd pour off 3oz at a time and put the retarder in the 3oz quantity vs the bulk jug. Then I can adjust it as needed.

 

Thanks OMG. I use Model Air 95% of the time. Just sat down at desk to paint. I mixed Distilled H20 and Retarder to the "milk" consistency. Will see how it works with dry-tip. I am running low on Tamiya Q-tips...dip them in laquer thinner...only use I have found for them. lol.

 Sooner Born...Buckeye Bred.

 

  • Member since
    October, 2016
  • From: Somewhere in Ohio...
Posted by DasBeav on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:49 PM

Greg

Just to make sure we're all apples to apples, Vallejo retarder medium is meant for use on your pallete, for brushing painting. Vallejo Flow improver is meant for airbrush use, to reduce dry tip.

You probably already know this, I only chime in because Vallejo's product nomenclature confuses me sometimes.

 

I actually did not know that. Still a relative hack.

I use the VJ Flow Improver and am going to get dry-tip regardless, but it seems like I am having to swab the dried needle way too often.

I did know that retarder was for palette use but "They" whoever "They" are said it can be thinned for ABing.

My fingers are crossed that maybe it will work better than the Flow Improver.

 Sooner Born...Buckeye Bred.

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 8:56 PM

DasBeav
My fingers are crossed that maybe it will work better than the Flow Improver. Add Quote to your Post

I'll cross mine for you too. Smile

I remember trying the retarder with Model Air years back when I still started with it, I had no joy. But I don't recall thinning it. I hope it works out for you. Yes

Vallejo is funny regarding air pressure. They say 20-25 PSI. I usually stay in the middle somewhere. If you are way above or below that, I suppose that could maybe cause some troubles. If you are using Model Air with flow improver, you shouldn't be having quite this much trouble. I think we might be missing something.

-Greg

  • Member since
    October, 2016
  • From: Somewhere in Ohio...
Posted by DasBeav on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 10:19 PM

Greg
 
DasBeav
My fingers are crossed that maybe it will work better than the Flow Improver. Add Quote to your Post

 

I'll cross mine for you too. Smile

I remember trying the retarder with Model Air years back when I still started with it, I had no joy. But I don't recall thinning it. I hope it works out for you. Yes

Vallejo is funny regarding air pressure. They say 20-25 PSI. I usually stay in the middle somewhere. If you are way above or below that, I suppose that could maybe cause some troubles. If you are using Model Air with flow improver, you shouldn't be having quite this much trouble. I think we might be missing something.

 

Like you I spray between 20-25 PSI. It's really not trouble, more of a annoyance. I think, maybe, part of the problem is I haven't mixed the VJMA and Improver well enough. I generally squirt them in the cup and stir with a toothpick. I did see people clean drytip with paintbrush instead of a Qtip. Maybe that will help better. Never thought of it.

Thanks, Doug

 Sooner Born...Buckeye Bred.

 

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 5:49 AM

Well we aren't exactly apple to apples here because I use Liquitex retarder which is advertised to be used across any acrylic mediums and paints to slow drying.  MA doesn't have to be thinned is true enough but you will find finer droplets and surface texture if you just cut it slightly 10-15%.  Slightly thinned and with retarder it doesn't clog a .25 needle @ 22-23lb working pressure with a siphon brush fwiw ( working pressure is the gauge reading with paint and air flowing, so after the drop). On the flip side in damper weather you might want a hair dryer handy to help flash the coats between coats ( like now where I live relative humidity is up today, it was down yesterday, in the winter it's always low here, in the summer always high, presently in transition).

But I've also shot MA straight from the bottle, not bad texture at all, it's just better imo cut a little bit.

I've seen the Vallejo videos where they use the flow improver. Sometimes a drop or two of flow improver only. So ya, not apples to apples here. Maybe I should stop professing "my way" of handling this paint so I don't lead anyone astray.. We all find ways that work for us. But I don't see any complication in Model Air Paint really ( people on the forum say it sucks, that hasn't been my experience but then I only use a few colors of it). Maybe with a gravity feed brush shooting @ 20 psi might make the difference. I don't seem to have problems with it how ever I paint it !

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 9:40 AM

oldermodelguy
Maybe I should stop professing "my way" of handling this paint so I don't lead anyone astray.. We all find ways that work for us.

I hope you don't stop. Vallejo has a bad rep here. It has a couple qualities I'm not crazy about, but so does every paint I use. IMO, hearing success stories here is fair and just, however you pull it off. Yes

oldermodelguy
people on the forum say it sucks, that hasn't been my experience but then I only use a few colors of it

I use VMA for most of my color spraying, and I don't think it sucks. I think your assessment is very fair. I've even read posts here over the year complaining about Vallejo, then later stating "I've never actually used it". Surprise

Beav, you ever try rolling the bottle between your palms. I mean like FAST. VJ recommends this, and though I can't be sure, I think it helps mix the stuff. Some here insist on popping off the dropper top of the bottle and properly stirring. I need to stop being so lazy and do that myself I suppose. Might be worth a try.

One more crazy thought, when you swab down the dry-tip with q-tip (that's what I use too, what do you wet the q-tip with?).

Another thing to consider, I think dry tip is a fact of life when airbrushing acrylics. Vallejo may or may not be worse than others.

-Greg

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 11:09 AM

Greg

 

 
oldermodelguy
Maybe I should stop professing "my way" of handling this paint so I don't lead anyone astray.. We all find ways that work for us.

 

I hope you don't stop. Vallejo has a bad rep here. It has a couple qualities I'm not crazy about, but so does every paint I use. IMO, hearing success stories here is fair and just, however you pull it off. Yes

 

 
oldermodelguy
people on the forum say it sucks, that hasn't been my experience but then I only use a few colors of it

 

I use VMA for most of my color spraying, and I don't think it sucks. I think your assessment is very fair. I've even read posts here over the year complaining about Vallejo, then later stating "I've never actually used it". Surprise

 

Greg, I've been contemplating some of the Vallejo metallics, have you shot those ?

FWIW, I can't stop, if I know something works I tend to blab about it. But that isn't to say another way doesn't work. I need to keep that open too.

Oh and I roll the bottles too. I do pop that top off and stir sometimes and just look over that dropper top to make sure no crud has dried in there.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 11:28 AM

Vallejo works for some folks, others not so much. As I said, Vallejo is a finicky beast for airbrushing. But whatever works for you, by all means use it. After countless times figuring out how to tame Vallejo with an airbrush with retarders, thinners and the constant cleaning every time nothing worked, I hated it since.

With that being said, that's all the more reasons why I ditched whatever small stash of Vallejo I had with the exception of their Off White. I hand brush using that color for my D-Day stripes. Makes it more realistic than regular white. Regular white is too bright for D-Day stripings on WW2 aircrafts. 

 

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 11:45 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Vallejo works for some folks, others not so much. As I said, Vallejo is a finicky beast for airbrushing. But whatever works for you, by all means use it. After countless times figuring out how to tame Vallejo with an airbrush with retarders, thinners and the constant cleaning every time nothing worked, I hated it since.

With that being said, that's all the more reasons why I ditched whatever small stash of Vallejo I had with the exception of their Off White. I hand brush using that color for my D-Day stripes. Makes it more realistic than regular white. Regular white is too bright for D-Day stripings on WW2 aircrafts. 

 

 

BS were you spraying Model Air or Model Color ? What I have had no trouble with is MA, never sprayed MC personally.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 11:47 AM

Whatever Vallejo offered at Hobby Lobby. Either way, I swore never to use Vallejo again Model Air or Model Color.

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 12:01 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Whatever Vallejo offered at Hobby Lobby. Either way, I swore never to use Vallejo again Model Air or Model Color.

 

I see. That doesn't say anything about if you would ever have liked MA then, because it sounds like you never used it.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 12:04 PM

oldermodelguy
Greg, I've been contemplating some of the Vallejo metallics, have you shot those ?

I have, yes. I became interested in them at the Nats in Ohio a few years back, one of the demo guys in the Vallejo booth was spraying the then-new metallics and it caught my eye.

Though I still prefer Alclad, IMO the Vallejo metallics lay down just fine and look great.

2 cents

 

-Greg

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 12:10 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour
Whatever Vallejo offered at Hobby Lobby. Either way, I swore never to use Vallejo again Model Air or Model Color.

Sheep, to each their own and I respect your decision to strongly dislike Vallejo.

That said, Hobbylobby only sells Vallejo Model Color, no Hobbylobby I've ever visited (and I've visited a LOT all over the country) stocks Model Air.

Having used Vallejo as my primary acrylic since 2013, I consider myself a moderately informed Vallejo user. Model Color is a nightmare to shoot through an airbrush. It is finicky as can be to try to thin right, no two colors thin or act anywhere near the same, and I avoid using it in an airbrush like the plague. It is a last resort measure and it usually results in excessive cursing, at the least. It's the bees knees for brush painting though. Smile

It's no wonder you hate Vallejo.

-Greg

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 12:29 PM

DasBeav
I am running low on Tamiya Q-tips...dip them in laquer thinner.

I just noticed the above. I'm not so sure about using laquer thinner as a dry-tip cleaner/solvent for Vallejo Acrylics. IMHO, that might be making your dry tip worse. You might try using Vallejo Airbrush thinner, just see if it makes a difference.

Also, did we determine what airbrush and nozzle/needle combo you are using? Excuse my poor memory.

-Greg

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 1:15 PM

I use acrylic thinner to clean the tip. I tend not to get tip dry on the needle but around the rim of the air cap a little bit. I've also used straight alcohol, which is something you don't want in Vallejo paint ( it sort of curdles MA if in there long enough undiluted) but it did work to clean the tip and quickly too. My final swabbing ( after flushing with water then cleaner) when cleaning the airbrush is alcohol too, then a rinse with water.

Never tried lacquer thinner. I have with some other acrylics and it wasn't exactly convincing for that particular purpose, maybe in an overnight soak.

But we need to establish something here: Vallejo MA and MC are different animals and I've only airbrushed MA. So when ever I mention airbrushing Vallejo paint, I mean VMA.

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 2:03 PM

Greg

 

I have, yes. I became interested in them at the Nats in Ohio a few years back, one of the demo guys in the Vallejo booth was spraying the then-new metallics and it caught my eye.

Though I still prefer Alclad, IMO the Vallejo metallics lay down just fine and look great.

2 cents

 

Thanks Greg.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 2:59 PM

oldermodelguy
I use acrylic thinner to clean the tip.

Honestly, I do too. I just thought to keep things simple and reduce variables it might be good for Beav to use Vallejo's own thinner to swab down the dry tip until he gets things sorted out. But I am in full agreement, any good acrylic thinner should work.

-Greg

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 3:00 PM

oldermodelguy
Thanks Greg.

You're welcome!

-Greg

  • Member since
    October, 2016
  • From: Somewhere in Ohio...
Posted by DasBeav on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:28 PM

Wow, lots of useful info everybody! Where to start.

I like my VMA. I use them 99% of the time. I used to use MM but for me VMA is a breeze to spray(except for dry tip) and to clean. For cost effectiveness I bought them all in sets. Sure I haven't used half the colors but has still been cheaper than buying single bottles.   

BTW, HL does sell a few VMA sets, but no single bottles. I will agree with Blacksheep that spraying Model Air can be tough. A few years ago I needed a Sky Blue to paint the belly of a Spit. Getting the right mix was a chore but after that it sprayed great!

I use my Iwata FrankeNeo .35.mm. which I really like. Used it enough to where if something is not right I know immediatly what is wrong.

I stir the bottles. In my experience rolling and or shaking them does not mix them fully.(Even with hexnuts in them). I pop the top and use my Tamiya stirrer.

I am going to get some of that VJ Airbrush thinner to use instead of laquer thinner. Again drytip is really not a major problem because it's going to happen regardless, more of a hindrance. Alot of it is I am tring to build 4 kits at once and have been doing more "piece work" instead of blasting a whole model.

Thanks Everybody for your reponses and help! Outside I go to plant my radishes..Red and White!

 Sooner Born...Buckeye Bred.

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:34 PM

Everything sounds good to me. I'd think a Neo with a .35 needle/nozzle combo would be about ideal for VMA. I just wanted to make sure you weren't shooting it thru a .15mm or something like that.

Thanks for your further info.

I stand corrected on HL and VMA then. I look whenever I visit one, and never saw a VMA set. Sorry Sheep. Maybe you were shooting Model Air. Embarrassed

-Greg

  • Member since
    October, 2016
  • From: Somewhere in Ohio...
Posted by DasBeav on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 6:54 PM

Greg

I stand corrected on HL and VMA then. I look whenever I visit one, and never saw a VMA set. Sorry Sheep. Maybe you were shooting Model Air. Embarrassed

 

They have only had the sets for a couple of years. They had a VMA rust and chipping effects set which I haven't seen since. Might be a "test" store.

 Sooner Born...Buckeye Bred.

 

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Thursday, May 09, 2019 6:03 AM

oldermodelguy

 

 
BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Whatever Vallejo offered at Hobby Lobby. Either way, I swore never to use Vallejo again Model Air or Model Color.

 

 

 

I see. That doesn't say anything about if you would ever have liked MA then, because it sounds like you never used it.

 

I looked and found they were Model Color not Model Air. Yes I have used them or tried to airbrush them. Didn’t care for them. I got the MC at Hobby Lobby because that’s what they had in stock.

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Thursday, May 09, 2019 7:36 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

 

I looked and found they were Model Color not Model Air. Yes I have used them or tried to airbrush them. Didn’t care for them. I got the MC at Hobby Lobby because that’s what they had in stock.

 

Thanks for getting back on that.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, May 09, 2019 8:33 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour
I looked and found they were Model Color not Model Air

That explains why they gave you fits, then. Model Color is great for hand brushing, in case you haven't tried it.

 

-Greg

  • Member since
    February, 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Monday, May 20, 2019 2:02 PM

Not sure if the issue is with Vallejo Model Air but I found this video spot on with helping to work with VMA (although about 4x longer than it need be).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi-naCV5ariAhUInawKHXKlCMEQwqsBMAB6BAgJEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De0sft8myRRI&usg=AOvVaw0cf9zo8qomjbL-Fn36C1pe

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    April, 2019
Posted by Fesan on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 8:11 PM

DasBeav

 

 
Greg

I stand corrected on HL and VMA then. I look whenever I visit one, and never saw a VMA set. Sorry Sheep. Maybe you were shooting Model Air. Embarrassed

 

 

 

They have only had the sets for a couple of years. They had a VMA rust and chipping effects set which I haven't seen since. Might be a "test" store.

 

 

My local hobby hobbys (got 6 of them within 50 miles of the house) all have the vallejo model air combo kits. They have the weathering ones and also the colors of planes per era and who they belonged too. Best example is recently picked up the modern era american fighter plane set so i have ghost grey etc from it. More like the kits since its 8 colors for 15 dollars thanks to their always 40% off coupon.

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