Help! - Clear Coat Issue

Question: What base coat brand was used?

Is the clear coat the same brand? as some brands do not work with one anothers. 

For instance, if you're using a particular brand of enamel paint as a base coat then use another brand for the clear coat, then you could have this type of issue. 

So, if you're using an enamel paint then locate the enamel clear coat made by the same company etc.

AmpLighter

Question: What base coat brand was used?

Is the clear coat the same brand? as some brands do not work with one anothers. 

For instance, if you're using a particular brand of enamel paint as a base coat then use another brand for the clear coat, then you could have this type of issue. 

So, if you're using an enamel paint then locate the enamel clear coat made by the same company etc.

 

Thanks for the response. I used ColourCoats enamel paints thinned with Laguer thinner for my base coats. I used an acrylic gloss coat so that I can weather with artist oils. 

ColourCoats does not make a clear coat unfortunately. 

Steve. 

As I said, mix/miss matching paint types and brands wont be successful as apparent in this quote from Hardforum.com

 "..use clearcoat made by the same manufacturer as the paint you used as the base coat. An Acrylic clearcoat won't work on enamel etc.."

Very sorry for your misfortune.

AmpLighter

As I said, mix/miss matching paint types and brands wont be successful as apparent in this quote from Hardforum.com

 "..use clearcoat made by the same manufacturer as the paint you used as the base coat. An Acrylic clearcoat won't work on enamel etc.."

Very sorry for your misfortune.

 

Sorry, but thats not quite true. Who ever wrote that never tried an oil wash over enamel clear coats. Its standard practice to use an acrylic clear coat over enamel paints if you are useing enamel or oil washes. In fact its a must.

Steve, how far away from the model was your airbrush. It looks like you may have been to far and the clear coat was drying before it hits the model. I don't know what brand of clear you used, but this finish often happens with tamiya paint if sprayed from to far from the model.

Thank Amp

Bish

 

 

AmpLighter

As I said, mix/miss matching paint types and brands wont be successful as apparent in this quote from Hardforum.com

 "..use clearcoat made by the same manufacturer as the paint you used as the base coat. An Acrylic clearcoat won't work on enamel etc.."

Very sorry for your misfortune.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but thats not quite true. Who ever wrote that never tried an oil wash over enamel clear coats. Its standard practice to use an acrylic clear coat over enamel paints if you are useing enamel or oil washes. In fact its a must.

Steve, how far away from the model was your airbrush. It looks like you may have been to far and the clear coat was drying before it hits the model. I don't know what brand of clear you used, but this finish often happens with tamiya paint if sprayed from to far from the model.

 

Bish,

I used Model Master (Testors) Clear Gloss. I was about 6 to 9 inches from the surface and laying down light coats. After all the work I've done on this, I'd hate to have it ruined at the finish line. 

I thought I had a bottle of the new Future.... but couldn't find it. So I used the other clear coat. I'm now wondering if I can either brush some Future on or airbrush it closer and hope that it self levels. I was spraying at 20 psi which is my usual setting. 

It could also be one if the joys of living in the desert. Everything dries faster here!

Thanks again,

Steve

Amplighter is absolutely wrong. If you base with enamel, you clear coat with acrylics. Then you can weather withoil or enamel. Yes it looks as though you were too far away or were at too low an air pressure. You need to either make a wet coat, or several lighter coats building up. If you overcoat with a wetter, but not too wet a coat it should be fine.

modelmaker66

Amplighter is absolutely wrong. If you base with enamel, you clear coat with acrylics. Then you can weather withoil or enamel. Yes it looks as though you were too far away or were at too low an air pressure. You need to either make a wet coat, or several lighter coats building up. If you overcoat with a wetter, but not too wet a coat it should be fine.

 

It is also possible to clearcoat with Testors lacquer glosscoats.  I know this sounds like it should be a disaster, but for some reason it works.  Those of us who use it that way can't explain why.

One suggestion- any time you are changing brands or types of paint on a model, try a test on a practice piece.  The modeling gang in this area use plastic spoons for such test- a big box of test items at cheap price.

Unless shooting highly thinned products then I'd also suggest running your Paasche H up a bit higher in pressure. You might think it's working fine where it is but I think you will find static pressure set around 25 psi to be better, this will give you a working pressure over 20 psi. Probably 22-23 psi and with the H that makes a difference. If you're using jars and not the side cup you could even go up a bit more. Hopefully your compressor is up to that, not all are. Paasche H brushes like air !

I agree your clear looks to have gone on too dry.

Pasche H w/ future

Don Stauffer

 

 

modelmaker66

Amplighter is absolutely wrong. If you base with enamel, you clear coat with acrylics. Then you can weather withoil or enamel. Yes it looks as though you were too far away or were at too low an air pressure. You need to either make a wet coat, or several lighter coats building up. If you overcoat with a wetter, but not too wet a coat it should be fine.

 

 

 

 

It is also possible to clearcoat with Testors lacquer glosscoats.  I know this sounds like it should be a disaster, but for some reason it works.  Those of us who use it that way can't explain why.

One suggestion- any time you are changing brands or types of paint on a model, try a test on a practice piece.  The modeling gang in this area use plastic spoons for such test- a big box of test items at cheap price.

 

 

How long did you wait between your basecoat and clear? Some clear brands say either to it immediately after painting or wait 30 days.

One thing missing from this discussion. Weathering washes often involve some gentle rubbing or mopping up of excess wash. If the wash in any way contains something that will attack the clear coat, curtains.

Bish

Its standard practice to use an acrylic clear coat over enamel paints if you are useing enamel or oil washes. In fact its a must.

Wrong. I've used enamels over enamels (including clear coats) without any issues since I first painted a model at age 12, and that was 61 years ago! Did you never paint a second coat of enamel on anything?

The secret is to wait at least 24 hours before applying the second enamel coat, because enamels do not "dry," they cure through cross-polymerization. This is why the advice given by virtually every manufacturer of hobby enamels since the days of Pactra has been to apply a second coat within 8 hours (before the first coat is fully cured) or wait 24 hours (to give the first coat time to cure). For applying a clear coat, however, whether enamel or "acrylic," I would wait at least 24 hours.

I've known award-winning figure painters who applied basic colors with hobby enamels and then applied shadows and shading using artist oils after the enamel had fully cured.

And I know artists who use oil paints over enamels without any issues at all. But they give the underlying enamels adequate time to cure.

As always, I would recommend testing on a scrap piece of plastic or paint hulk, especially if using an "acrylic" or a clear enamel coat from a different manufacturer from that of your base coat. Not all "acrylics" are equal (some are enamels, some are lacquers, and some are water-based), and different manufacturers of enamels have different formulas. And always use the manufacturer's recommended thinner.

As to your issue with the clear coat, I think you may have sprayed it at too high a pressure or at too far a distance from the model, or both.

A quick way to avoid the MM clear from drying fast and leaving a rough surface, as it can do under the right circumstances, is to mix a few drops of Gunze Leveling thinner into it and it will slow the drying process and allow it to level out as intended. I've been using this method since I had the same issue you did and have never had it happen again.

BK

BrandonK

A quick way to avoid the MM clear from drying fast and leaving a rough surface, as it can do under the right circumstances, is to mix a few drops of Gunze Leveling thinner into it and it will slow the drying process and allow it to level out as intended. I've been using this method since I had the same issue you did and have never had it happen again.

BK

 

Space Ranger

 

 

Bish

Its standard practice to use an acrylic clear coat over enamel paints if you are useing enamel or oil washes. In fact its a must.

 

 

 

Wrong. I've used enamels over enamels (including clear coats) without any issues since I first painted a model at age 12, and that was 61 years ago! Did you never paint a second coat of enamel on anything?

The secret is to wait at least 24 hours before applying the second enamel coat, because enamels do not "dry," they cure through cross-polymerization. This is why the advice given by virtually every manufacturer of hobby enamels since the days of Pactra has been to apply a second coat within 8 hours (before the first coat is fully cured) or wait 24 hours (to give the first coat time to cure). For applying a clear coat, however, whether enamel or "acrylic," I would wait at least 24 hours.

I've known award-winning figure painters who applied basic colors with hobby enamels and then applied shadows and shading using artist oils after the enamel had fully cured.

And I know artists who use oil paints over enamels without any issues at all. But they give the underlying enamels adequate time to cure.

As always, I would recommend testing on a scrap piece of plastic or paint hulk, especially if using an "acrylic" or a clear enamel coat from a different manufacturer from that of your base coat. Not all "acrylics" are equal (some are enamels, some are lacquers, and some are water-based), and different manufacturers of enamels have different formulas. And always use the manufacturer's recommended thinner.

As to your issue with the clear coat, I think you may have sprayed it at too high a pressure or at too far a distance from the model, or both.

 

 

 I didn't say you can't paint enamels over enamels, (yes, of course i have done that every time i do a camo scheme) but that you can paint acrylics over enamels and if you are useing enamel or oil wahes over enamel paint, you must put an acrylic layer on first. And an oil wash is not the same as useing oil paints.

Bish

 

 

Space Ranger

 

 

Bish

Its standard practice to use an acrylic clear coat over enamel paints if you are useing enamel or oil washes. In fact its a must.

 

 

 

Wrong. I've used enamels over enamels (including clear coats) without any issues since I first painted a model at age 12, and that was 61 years ago! Did you never paint a second coat of enamel on anything?

The secret is to wait at least 24 hours before applying the second enamel coat, because enamels do not "dry," they cure through cross-polymerization. This is why the advice given by virtually every manufacturer of hobby enamels since the days of Pactra has been to apply a second coat within 8 hours (before the first coat is fully cured) or wait 24 hours (to give the first coat time to cure). For applying a clear coat, however, whether enamel or "acrylic," I would wait at least 24 hours.

I've known award-winning figure painters who applied basic colors with hobby enamels and then applied shadows and shading using artist oils after the enamel had fully cured.

And I know artists who use oil paints over enamels without any issues at all. But they give the underlying enamels adequate time to cure.

As always, I would recommend testing on a scrap piece of plastic or paint hulk, especially if using an "acrylic" or a clear enamel coat from a different manufacturer from that of your base coat. Not all "acrylics" are equal (some are enamels, some are lacquers, and some are water-based), and different manufacturers of enamels have different formulas. And always use the manufacturer's recommended thinner.

As to your issue with the clear coat, I think you may have sprayed it at too high a pressure or at too far a distance from the model, or both.

 

 

 

 

 

 I didn't say you can't paint enamels over enamels, (yes, of course i have done that every time i do a camo scheme) but that you can paint acrylics over enamels and if you are useing enamel or oil wahes over enamel paint, you must put an acrylic layer on first. And an oil wash is not the same as useing oil paints.

 

I think you missed my point. It is NOT necessary to put an acrylic layer over enamel before using an enamel wash, provided you let the underlying enamel cure for at least 24 hours.

And how does an oil "wash" differ from oil paint, except for the amount of thinner used?

Space Ranger

 

 And how does an oil "wash" differ from oil paint, except for the amount of thinner used?

 

An oil wash will take longer to dry than an enamel wash which dries WAY faster. Weathering with oils gives one more time to play with the effects and make blending much easier.

As far as the issue of using or not using a barrier coat , do what works for you. I know that using a barrier coat will not yield unwanted surprises after or during application involving scrubbing on filters or puddling of washes on my models. 

Steve can you use some polishing pads to try to knock down some of the orange peel? Once you're done with the weathering and shoot clear flat it will not be that noticeable. I do beleieve you shot it too far from the surface. After your weathering is done, let it cure for a few days then use some solvent type AK clear flat or Mr. Color thinned with Mr. Color Leveling Thinner and shoot the boat with it. After you spray the flat, immediately shoot some Mr. Color Leveling Thinner straight from the bottle all over the model. The thinner will do an exceptional job at leveling thinngs out. And yes one can shoot solvent type clear over CURED acrylic. 

Space Ranger

 

 

Bish

 

 

Space Ranger

 

 

Bish

Its standard practice to use an acrylic clear coat over enamel paints if you are useing enamel or oil washes. In fact its a must.

 

 

 

Wrong. I've used enamels over enamels (including clear coats) without any issues since I first painted a model at age 12, and that was 61 years ago! Did you never paint a second coat of enamel on anything?

The secret is to wait at least 24 hours before applying the second enamel coat, because enamels do not "dry," they cure through cross-polymerization. This is why the advice given by virtually every manufacturer of hobby enamels since the days of Pactra has been to apply a second coat within 8 hours (before the first coat is fully cured) or wait 24 hours (to give the first coat time to cure). For applying a clear coat, however, whether enamel or "acrylic," I would wait at least 24 hours.

I've known award-winning figure painters who applied basic colors with hobby enamels and then applied shadows and shading using artist oils after the enamel had fully cured.

And I know artists who use oil paints over enamels without any issues at all. But they give the underlying enamels adequate time to cure.

As always, I would recommend testing on a scrap piece of plastic or paint hulk, especially if using an "acrylic" or a clear enamel coat from a different manufacturer from that of your base coat. Not all "acrylics" are equal (some are enamels, some are lacquers, and some are water-based), and different manufacturers of enamels have different formulas. And always use the manufacturer's recommended thinner.

As to your issue with the clear coat, I think you may have sprayed it at too high a pressure or at too far a distance from the model, or both.

 

 

 

 

 

 I didn't say you can't paint enamels over enamels, (yes, of course i have done that every time i do a camo scheme) but that you can paint acrylics over enamels and if you are useing enamel or oil wahes over enamel paint, you must put an acrylic layer on first. And an oil wash is not the same as useing oil paints.

 

 

 

 

I think you missed my point. It is NOT necessary to put an acrylic layer over enamel before using an enamel wash, provided you let the underlying enamel cure for at least 24 hours.

And how does an oil "wash" differ from oil paint, except for the amount of thinner used?

 

Then i would love to know what your useing to thin your oils or enamels. I've applied AK enamel washes as well as home made oil washes several days even a week after painting and its damaged the enamel where i haven't applied the coat of clear acrylic properly.

Thats the first time i have ever heard anyone say you can put a wash straight onto enamel paint. But if it works for you, great. Certainly don't for me. I've used white spirits and Humbrolenamel thinners to thin oils, there is no way i would do a dot filter straight onto an enamel coat, and thats before useing neat thinners to remove the excess.

My preferred wash technique is:

Either enamel or acrylic base paint colors.

Clear acrylic barrier coat.

decals if any. 

Another acrylic coat over those.

Wash with oil paint thinned with Turpenoid.

Let sit a bit, then blot, scrub wipe whatever.

Repeat as needed.

If I f#ck up, I can usually remove the weathering without going through the barrier coat and wrecking the model.

I mean folks can weather their models with cat *** for all I care, but the above works for me and I'm sticking to it.

Bill

Sounds correct GM but if you use acrylic paint then no need to do an acrylic barrier clear coat when using enamel washes unless you want a glossy surface for sharper details. I rather do a dot oil filter over a flat acrylic clear coat which blends much better than over a glossy surface.

plasticjunkie

shoot some Mr. Color Leveling Thinner straight from the bottle all over the model. The thinner will do an exceptional job at leveling thinngs out.

Mr Color Leveling thinner is an amazing product for what it does to paints to help with flow and drying times. It will make you look like a better AB'r straight away. Just never mix it with Vallejo products, it makes a gooey mess. But, Tamiya and Gunze it is amazing to use. Far better than the Tamiya thinner.

BK

Gentlemen,

I want to thank you all for your input and recommendation. They all were helpful and greatly appreciated.

So the culprits were many and varied to say the least.

First off, I used Testor’s Acryl Clear Gloss with their recommended Testor’s thinner. Living in the desert I know that a bit more thinner is usually a good idea so I added a bit more than the recommended “slightly” thinned. I should have used Future as I have in the past. I am going to try Mr Color leveler, but finding anything Mr. Color around here is hard, so I’ll have to resort to either evilBay or the evil empire Amazon.

The problem seems to have started with too much pressure, I should have used 15 vs. 20 psi but that was also compounded by spraying too far from the surface and trying to lay down too thin of coats and not letting them dry or cure in between.  Also having the valve all the way open to try and get max coverage was a mistake, I should have  turned it down and exercised patience.

This is the Merit 1/48 PT Boat and although not as large as the Italeri 1/35, it does dwarf the Revell 1/72 boat. That being said, it was the mistaken reasoning behind using my Paasche H single action aibrush vs. my Iwata double action brushes.

Again, I want to thank all of you and let you know how much I appreciate all of your advice and input.

Steve

The owner and chief chemist at Sovereign Colorcoats had this to say on another forum:

"As you know it can take quite a long time for a full and final polymeric cure with oil based paints even though they are practically dry and don't smell any more.

"The issue, I think, is definition and style. Dried enamels are fine receiving oil filters and washes if the user is quick and light-touch in the use. Some people are naturally lead-handed and will pour the stuff on and faff about for too long rubbing away at the surface with brushes and rags etc. This prolonged exposure to fresh solvent and excessive agigation of the surface probably will soften and dissolve the enamel paint underneath. 

"In summary it depends what's meant by a wash. Just applying a dark wash or filter to bring out detail in a cockpit is fine direct on top of enamel. Likewise pin washes are also fine. If however one plans on soaking the model in thinner and rubbing at the surface then a barrier coat of something not oil based is advisable. It's worth noting that in my personal experience oil/solvent based washes can obliterate 'water based' clear coats with alarming ease too if the water based stuff hasn't also had a fairly long time to dry and your enamel underneath just behaves as if the acrylic stuff isn't there. 

"Water dispersible binders take rather longer to fully dry and harden than most think... 

"Speed kills when it comes to models."