So does white have different properties from other "colors" ?

the Baron

 

 

oldermodelguy

The easiest way to deal with Tamiya for brush painting is set the bottle down on your work bench, grab a bottle of Model Master or Model Color, open that and do your brush painting accordingly. Leave the cap solidly on the Tamiya bottle. 

 

 

 

That's amusing, but seriously, it's not correct.  It's a myth that Tamiya's paints can't be brushed on by hand.  I brush Tamiya's paints all the time by hand.  They need to be thinned, that's all. 

I get my best results using Tamiya's own proprietary thinner.  I will either mix equal parts of the paint and the thinner in a well on a ceramic palette, or, I dip the brush in the color and then into a small jar of the thinner.  I also dip the brush in the thinner, and then pick up paint from the lid of the jar.

Either way, I can lay down a coat as thin as if I had airbrushed it.

So it is simply not so, that Tamiya paints can't be hand-brushed successfully.

 

Ya I could too but to me it was more a control factor as to how it flowed. It could be done for sure but some other products to me worked better, thus I said what I did. However since then by some other guys suggestions I tried straight retarder. Now that brushed beautifully, it flows off the brush, doesn't get runny, it's just well managed. I'm not going back to thinner. I'm using Liquitex retarder because that's what I stock here, they used Tamiya retarder but my results were satisfying so I'll stick with what I use in everything else.

Thanks for your reply !

oldermodelguy

The easiest way to deal with Tamiya for brush painting is set the bottle down on your work bench, grab a bottle of Model Master or Model Color, open that and do your brush painting accordingly. Leave the cap solidly on the Tamiya bottle. 

That's amusing, but seriously, it's not correct.  It's a myth that Tamiya's paints can't be brushed on by hand.  I brush Tamiya's paints all the time by hand.  They need to be thinned, that's all. 

I get my best results using Tamiya's own proprietary thinner.  I will either mix equal parts of the paint and the thinner in a well on a ceramic palette, or, I dip the brush in the color and then into a small jar of the thinner.  I also dip the brush in the thinner, and then pick up paint from the lid of the jar.

Either way, I can lay down a coat as thin as if I had airbrushed it.

So it is simply not so, that Tamiya paints can't be hand-brushed successfully.

Mrchntmarine

same here - tks for all the testing and feedback - invaluable....  Heres another - i tried some of that mr color levelling thinner i got in the mail the other day  W/ the tamiya acrylic white x2 and the bubbly patriot 105 - no dry tip and no bubbling!!  

 

Awesome news !!

Mrchntmarine

same here - tks for all the testing and feedback - invaluable....  Heres another - i tried some of that mr color levelling thinner i got in the mail the other day  W/ the tamiya acrylic white x2 and the bubbly patriot 105 - no dry tip and no bubbling!!  

 

same here - tks for all the testing and feedback - invaluable....  Heres another - i tried some of that mr color levelling thinner i got in the mail the other day  W/ the tamiya acrylic white x2 and the bubbly patriot 105 - no dry tip and no bubbling!!  

Thanks for that info! Real experimenting is so much more valuable that just theories. Please keep up the good work friend!

Mrchntmarine

Does white have different properties from other colors?  I recently used tamiya acrylic white and added a drop or 2 or their retarder to what i had in the cup.  Ratio wise is was a tiny addition to the paint.  While brushing for a bit the paint turned a bit gooey and stringy...

Don Stauffer

Paints get their colors from tiny particles called pigment.  For any color there may be several chemicals that produce about the same color, but with slightly different shades. If you look at a catalog of artists oil colors, the name of the color is often the name of the chemical, used as an adjective and the generic name for the color, like Titanium white.

So even slightly different colors may be chemically different.  And the same color in different brands may have the pigment ground to different sizes.  The type of paint vehicle- enamel, acrylic, lacquer, polyurethane- also has different chemical and physical properties, so different paints definitely have different properties that affect how easy they are to use. 

To answer your question, yes, my observation is that Tamiya's acrylic white does behave differently from other colors in their acrylic line.

And to follow on Don's comment, I agree, I believe that the liquid behaves differently because its chemical composition is different from other colors in their acrylic line.

For example, I've noticed that the white will go bad faster than other colors.  Their black does, too.  That is, once opened, it will congeal faster than other colors in the line, like Gray or Park Green.

I have seen the same thing with black and white from other paint companies, too.  Testors enamel white and black, for example go bad faster than other colors in that line.

oldermodelguy

 

That said I'm going to test Liquitex retarder in some Tamiya acrylic for brushing today, never done that experiment and you guys raised my curiosity level a notch..

 

So this is the follow up of my own reply lol. I just conducted the test of brush painting Tamiya X-4 gloss blue with Liquitex retarder. I put a healthy drop on the back of a ceramic bowl for easy clean up at the sink. Next to it I put a drop of LR. The brush still had some paint in it so I grabbed some retarder with it and mixed that into the drop of blue. I then went over a prescription bottle I painted the other day that had one rendition of the cream sprayed on it that I didn't care about and the blue brushed on great, real great actually. So then I just mixed most of the rest of the retarder into the drop and really that brushed very decent as well but thinner obviously. They didn't run, neither one. The one with the lesser retarder is a richer blue obviously because it's thicker. I didn't try a second coat but really it doesn't need it anyway. They're fairly dry to the touch presently and the gloss is decently retained.

And the good news is it didn't try to melt or lift the cream at all. This is awesome, so simple. I used Liquitex retarder because that's what I keep here to use with craft paints and artist acrylics. It's what I use in my home brew thinner as well. So I decided to try it, works great.

Greg

I agree, there might be a difference between gloss and flat. I sort of forgot about that. it might be significant.

Sounds like you're making progress, and glad you have someone who brush-paints Tamiya regularly to help.

 

I've been mixing up my rendition of Tacoma Cream paint doing test swatches. Came to agreement in my confused head about which swatch was correct. Then I mixed up a Testors mixing bottle of that color for the wheels of a 1/16 scale model. If it ever gets here I have both the wheel color and body color ready to go. It dawned on me how long that wide open mouth of my Tamiya X-8 ( tint color for the cream)  yellow and X-4 blue ( base color for the Washington blue) needs to be open if you just left it that way while mixing. You could skim coat and wreck the whole bottle. I've had multi stabs at the Tacoma Cream too before I got it.  At least pop the lid back over the bottle while mixing " things" up. Don't let it sit on the bench open, those are wide mouth jars basically and Tamiya is alcohol based and alcohol has a very fast evap rate, not to mention a high absorbing rate with water in humid weather . I do believe my bottle yellow is now not as loose as it was before I started mixing this cream. Every time times times the bottle gets opened up some more alcohol escapes never to return too. So there is that thought...

That said I'm going to test Liquitex retarder in some Tamiya acrylic for brushing today, never done that experiment and you guys raised my curiosity level a notch..

modelmaker66

The right way to brush paint is to dispense it into a tray, thin it about 50%  and a drop or two of retrder, and paint in several, maybe 4-6 layers to build it up slowly and thinly. This gives no brush strokes and looks airbrushed. You aer using it too thick thus your problems. Look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZFap65kpgg&t=2s

 

 

tks - I'll ck our the link. FWIW in the spoon test , I think I mentioned the paint was w/o thinners, etc. it was primarily to see the difference between using the appropriate colored primer - not necessarily on the best way to brush. I do use thinners, etc. But, even though I was trying the best way to brush, I prefer the coverage of the Vallejo vs Tamiya - for brushing. 

The easiest way to deal with Tamiya for brush painting is set the bottle down on your work bench, grab a bottle of Model Master or Model Color, open that and do your brush painting accordingly. Leave the cap solidly on the Tamiya bottle.

The right way to brush paint is to dispense it into a tray, thin it about 50%  and a drop or two of retrder, and paint in several, maybe 4-6 layers to build it up slowly and thinly. This gives no brush strokes and looks airbrushed. You aer using it too thick thus your problems. Look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZFap65kpgg&t=2s

Eaglecash867

Hi Mrchntmarine,

Just to let you know, I used Tamiya X-2 with a brush for the first time this past weekend and had exactly the same problem you showed in your pic.  At first I was kicking myself for not blowing out my work area prior to painting, because I thought I had gotten a piece of cat hair in the palette cup.  Turns out it was the paint itself, going stringy just like you had experienced.  I was able to add another drop of retarder and get it back to normal just long enough to finish the job.  All I was doing was touch-up work on my F-16 landing gear, so it hadn't been in the palette cup very long before doing exactly what you describe.  So far, all other Tamiya paints have been fine for this kind of work, it just seems to be the X-2 (gloss white) that does this.

 

Yep - weird.  Tks for the follow up.  I also used a little black this weekend and had the same issue.  The paints are not that old, so who knows.  I have in the past, like i did with the black, when i have a tiny part or similar to touch up, just dip in the bottle - so there is always the possibility of contamination there.  Im no pro, but im guessing thats taboo.  But, that being said, i know ive never done that to the white - being , well, white.  dont ask why, i just kinda thought it would be worse to do it to white.  Now im more conscious of paint and brush care and when painting and always pour a little ino the palatte. UNLESS its a tiny piece in which ii need no more than 1 swipe or 2.  But, now after all this i may never do it again and just pour - to be on the safe side.

Hi Mrchntmarine,

Just to let you know, I used Tamiya X-2 with a brush for the first time this past weekend and had exactly the same problem you showed in your pic.  At first I was kicking myself for not blowing out my work area prior to painting, because I thought I had gotten a piece of cat hair in the palette cup.  Turns out it was the paint itself, going stringy just like you had experienced.  I was able to add another drop of retarder and get it back to normal just long enough to finish the job.  All I was doing was touch-up work on my F-16 landing gear, so it hadn't been in the palette cup very long before doing exactly what you describe.  So far, all other Tamiya paints have been fine for this kind of work, it just seems to be the X-2 (gloss white) that does this.

ok, because i was curious and had such a hard time with the tamiya and because i used the wrong color primer, i thought i do a little experiment.  Both spoons were primed with stylnlrez - gray and a white.  I then brushed each paint straight - no thinners.  On the L on both spoons is Tamiya acrylic X2 and on the right is vallejo model color ivory.  On the L spoon my strokes were short vs a little longer on the R spoon.  What i learned most is - use the right color primer and i like the better coverage of the Vallejo.  Also very interesting to see the differnce in shading or hue between the 2 spoons bc of the primer.  The ivory on the R looks more "ivory" on the white primer....  I might nail these to the wall so i remember

oldermodelguy

Ya that paint looks contaminated. You didn't by chance along the way return some mixed paint you were spraying back into the bottle ?

 

Nope.  Im sure ive done some no no's, but i know ive never done that one. If anything, and i doubt this, i may have added some x20a to the bottle at one time to cut it.  But, i dont even think i did that.  I give up - for now!  Tks

Ya that paint looks contaminated. You didn't by chance along the way return some mixed paint you were spraying back into the bottle ? Sometimes over time that can have an adverse reaction depending what the thinner was. I've never seen Tamiya do that but again I don't use white generally and don't generally brush paint with it either.

I hope someone has a better answer for you.

Aha!

         As for Gooey and Stringy, that's what I ran into straight out of the bottle with their Acrylics.That's why my Akagi is on the shelf of doom. Partially assembled and now I have to remove the paint and start over? Not what I care for!

bluenote

 

 

Mrchntmarine

 

 

bluenote

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

 

 

 

 

tks for the feedback.  it was shaken.  so i understand - so i can try one day - paint in 1 well, 1 drop of retarder in another.  you load the brush with paint and then go to the retarder well and swirl the brush to get some retarder and then paint.  Then you would hav to go back and load more paint and then go back to the retarder well and swirl some more to get some more retarder on the brush?  Wouldnt all the retarder be gone after the 1st dipping of the brush?  Your opinion - is it bad practice to keep some thinner in a well to "reactivate" the paint while brushing?  Im curious from someone who used this paint and bc im pretty new at this and trying to figure best practices.  Or is it not good to use the thinner like that?

 

 

 

 

I mean this with full respect, but don't overthink it.  I have a little metal pallette, put 1 drop of retarder, then a brushful or 2 of paint and mix thorougly.  After a bit of painting, it will start to run out, so I add another drop and another brushful of paint again and keep painting.  

If I'm brush painting a larger object, then it's still 1, maybe 2 drops of retarder and 4 or 5 brushfuls of paint.  It still works the same to be honest.  

I use a pipette for the retarder.  

I also never overlap wet paint that I've just put down.  one stroke and that's it, move to the next part.

Doing the above, I've never had any issues with brush painting tamiya paint.  

 

got it.  I was trying to figure out if it made a difference whether to add the retarder to the paint and mix or do like you do - have the paint and retarder separate and load brush and mix  into the drop.  Good to know it makes no difference.  Tks - il try that sometime.

I agree, there might be a difference between gloss and flat. I sort of forgot about that. it might be significant.

Sounds like you're making progress, and glad you have someone who brush-paints Tamiya regularly to help.

Mrchntmarine

 

 

bluenote

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

 

 

 

 

tks for the feedback.  it was shaken.  so i understand - so i can try one day - paint in 1 well, 1 drop of retarder in another.  you load the brush with paint and then go to the retarder well and swirl the brush to get some retarder and then paint.  Then you would hav to go back and load more paint and then go back to the retarder well and swirl some more to get some more retarder on the brush?  Wouldnt all the retarder be gone after the 1st dipping of the brush?  Your opinion - is it bad practice to keep some thinner in a well to "reactivate" the paint while brushing?  Im curious from someone who used this paint and bc im pretty new at this and trying to figure best practices.  Or is it not good to use the thinner like that?

 

I mean this with full respect, but don't overthink it.  I have a little metal pallette, put 1 drop of retarder, then a brushful or 2 of paint and mix thorougly.  After a bit of painting, it will start to run out, so I add another drop and another brushful of paint again and keep painting.  

If I'm brush painting a larger object, then it's still 1, maybe 2 drops of retarder and 4 or 5 brushfuls of paint.  It still works the same to be honest.  

I use a pipette for the retarder.  

I also never overlap wet paint that I've just put down.  one stroke and that's it, move to the next part.

Doing the above, I've never had any issues with brush painting tamiya paint.  

Greg

That's not right. It shouldn't be that thick or stringly, at least not after 10 seconds.

Having not used Tamiya lately, I just stirred up my pretty old bottle of XF-2 flat white and put 10 drops in a pallet.

Excuse the bad pic, but you can see it looks a lot different than what you have.

Here is after about a minute, paint is drying up and balling on the brush tip already, as expected.....

I don't have any Tamiya retarder, but a touch X20A wetted the paint back up.

My hat's off to Bluenote and others who hand paint this stuff. It does sound like Tamiya's own retarder is likely the way to go if you want to hand brush it.

The other idea comes to mind about your bottle of white, maybe the lid didn't get closed well and it is drying out.

But at any rate, back to original question, should white be this much different in consistency then other Tamiya colors? Now that you show the pic, it should not. I half-expected the white in my test to be a little thicker out of hte bottle just because it is white, it was not.

Off-topic, I'd forgotten how much I love the smell of Tamiya Acrylics.

 

tks greg.  To follow up, just now i stirred the original white i was having the problem with, 23ml bottle X-2 white and put some in the well.  No additives.    After about 30 sec. i just touched the brush to the surface of the paint and could see surface ripples that it was already starting to thicken.  I then put some XF-2 white form a 10ml bottle into a well and waited 20 or so sec.  Did not seem to have the same surface tension of the X2.  I then waited 3 minutes and went back to the X2.  Definately stringy but after a few swirls of the brush it somewhat loosened up again.  Back to the XF2 - still not as thick as the X2...  Oh well, maybe as mentioned a little contaminaon with the bottle - maybe a loose cap sometime....

bluenote

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

 

tks for the feedback.  it was shaken.  so i understand - so i can try one day - paint in 1 well, 1 drop of retarder in another.  you load the brush with paint and then go to the retarder well and swirl the brush to get some retarder and then paint.  Then you would hav to go back and load more paint and then go back to the retarder well and swirl some more to get some more retarder on the brush?  Wouldnt all the retarder be gone after the 1st dipping of the brush?  Your opinion - is it bad practice to keep some thinner in a well to "reactivate" the paint while brushing?  Im curious from someone who used this paint and bc im pretty new at this and trying to figure best practices.  Or is it not good to use the thinner like that?

That's not right. It shouldn't be that thick or stringly, at least not after 10 seconds.

Having not used Tamiya lately, I just stirred up my pretty old bottle of XF-2 flat white and put 10 drops in a pallet.

Excuse the bad pic, but you can see it looks a lot different than what you have.

Here is after about a minute, paint is drying up and balling on the brush tip already, as expected.....

I don't have any Tamiya retarder, but a touch X20A wetted the paint back up.

My hat's off to Bluenote and others who hand paint this stuff. It does sound like Tamiya's own retarder is likely the way to go if you want to hand brush it.

The other idea comes to mind about your bottle of white, maybe the lid didn't get closed well and it is drying out.

But at any rate, back to original question, should white be this much different in consistency then other Tamiya colors? Now that you show the pic, it should not. I half-expected the white in my test to be a little thicker out of hte bottle just because it is white, it was not.

Off-topic, I'd forgotten how much I love the smell of Tamiya Acrylics.

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

ok, hate to beat this to death , but this is what i was talkng about.  Had a few touch up spots and had to use some more of this Tamiya white acrylic.  This is right after putting some in the cup, literally 10 seconds, and its stringy.....  Straight form the bottle - no additives.  What the heck?

Oh, well no wonder you are frustrated! Didn't realize you are using Vallejo Model Color as your benchmark.

Comparing brush-painting Vallejo Model Color vs Tamiya acrylics., Tamiya will never even come close no matter what you do or mix in with it.

Mrchntmarine

so to switch colors - white to black - but still brusing...  Been doing some small parts in black w/ Tamiya acrylic.  Like its been said here, maybe not the best brand for brushing.  I tried their thinner, alcohol and a home brew.  Still doesnt seem to work like the Vallejo model colors ive been trying.  Had enough of trying to brush the Tamiya - going for something else....   whew. 

 

Good idea !

so to switch colors - white to black - but still brusing...  Been doing some small parts in black w/ Tamiya acrylic.  Like its been said here, maybe not the best brand for brushing.  I tried their thinner, alcohol and a home brew.  Still doesnt seem to work like the Vallejo model colors ive been trying.  Had enough of trying to brush the Tamiya - going for something else....   whew.