Brush Painting Acrylics - HELP! - FineScale Modeler - Essential magazine for scale model builders, model kit reviews, how-to scale modeling, and scale modeling products

Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Brush Painting Acrylics - HELP!

Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 17, 2004 5:48 AM

hey folks

I have been using Humbrol enamels to brush and airbrush for something like 40 years. I love 'em! I know exactly how they will behave in just about every imaginable situation. However as I am becoming increasingly aware of risks associated with solvents etc I have decided to make the big change to acrylics.

So I have betaken myself off to the LHS and aquired a dozen or so jars of Tamiya acrylics, a paint about which I hear virtually nothing but praise in these pages and elsewhere. Now I haven't tried them through the airbrush yet, but tonight I set out to brush paint the hull of a 1/700 waterline destroyer that I have been working on for a couple of weeks.

On the advice of the LHS I am using a 50/50 mix of Methylated spirits and water as a thinner/brush cleaner.

Here's what I did:

1. Stir the paint thoroughly - deffinitely not a stir paint problem!

2. Dip a fresh brush in thinners, wipe off excess on paper towel.

3. Load brush from paint jar.

4. Apply to model in long, slow, even strokes with minimum 'overlap'.

Heres what happens:

Paint on the model almost immediately takes on a 'granular' appearance, almost as if there was very fine sand mixed in. They are not tiny bubbles, but little lumps. It is almost as if the paint is going 75% dry almost instantly and then the next brush-stroke lifts off some of the previous brush stroke. Now I am talking 'strokes' from the same brush-load, with litterally a split second between!

If it was enamels, I would say part dried paint was the problem, and I suspect it is the problem here, but I cannot for the life of me envision a technique that would get the paint on evenly quicker!

I tried Gunze paints about ten years ago and had EXACTLY the same problem. I know there are folks out there brush painting successfully with both Gunze and Tamiya acrylics, so I must humbly admit that the problem is probably me! Sad [:(]

Anybody got any suggestions?

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 17, 2004 10:11 AM

Hello Andy, I've only recently started to switch over to acrylics myself and I mostly AB them. However, I have brushed them a little bit and I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to thin both. Actually, I rarely thin acrylics when brush-painting, not until they get too thick from exposure to air. I've brushed the "Acryl" brand the most and Tamiiya's I've only brushed the clear blue and I thinned that by brushing some iso over the paint which I wouldn't suggest! I do suggest trying the iso thogh, it works great for me. I hope this helps a bit, but you may want to wait for some of the pros to reply. Just my My 2 cents [2c]

Take Care, -Spencer

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 17, 2004 10:44 AM

Yeah, I used to use enamils too for a couple years, then because of the health issues I switched over to acrlys. Brushpainting used to be so easy when I was using enamils, but with acryls you have to be extremly careful to avoid brushstrokes the come out in the dried finish. First off, did you add anything to the Tamiya paints? If they are out of the bottle when you get them they are just fine, and they don't need to be thinned for hand-painting. Second, did you prepare (clean and wash) you ship's hull before painting it? Your description of fine sand in the paint can usually happen if the acrls aren't mixed enough, or something was added (to thin the paint) that didn't mix well with the paint. Tamiya acrylics are very specific. You can get by by thinning and cleaning them out of your AB with iso rubbing alchohol, but the house brand cleaner is better. If you added water to dilute the Tamiya paints when you handpainted them (which is what you did, right?) than there will be a "sandy" grainular looking paint job. Another thing is acrylics dry realy fast, like you were talking about how it dried instanly. With enamials, when you handpaint, you don't need that much paint to get good coverage. With Acrlys, you want a nice thick layer of paint on the model, which means loading up more paint than you would think that the job needs (this is to get brush-stroke free paint jobs and is my basic rule for acryl brushpainting). You probably applied adiquite amounts of paint for enamials, but because acrylics need more, it dried instantly. Hope it helps.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:38 PM

Thanx guys!

The model was washed and I was using the paint straight from the jar unthinned, but I HAD loaded the brush with thinners first, like I would with enamels or artists water-based paints so I will have at it again with a 'dry' brush loaded with 'too much' paint and see if that fixes things.

thanks again Andy!

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MusicCity

Member since
January 2004
From: USA

Posted by MusicCity on Saturday, April 17, 2004 9:43 PM

I've never had a lot of luck hand brushing acrylics. Some guys can, but I'm not one of them. If I have to do anything larger than detailing, I'll airbrush it.

What hand brushing I do with acrylics, I thin them quite a bit. About as much as I do when I airbrush them, 3:1 (paint : 91% iso alcohol). I also add a couple of drops of acrylic retarder to keep them from drying so quickly. I normally just put a few drops of paint in an old film canister top, and before I started using the retarder I could barely do anything before the paint started drying in my cap. With the retarder I can get about 15 minutes of painting before I have to stir the paint up again. Much more usable IMO.

Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 17, 2004 11:00 PM

did you shake the bottle? shaking can sometimes loosten dried paint, making little specks to go into your paint.

did you wipe the brush against the side of the bottle? the paint crud sometimes finds a way to get on your model

Did you dry the hull with a towel wiping 1 way? dont. static electricity will form, aand attract dust to your model.

try an acrylic retarder, may help. also, heres a tip to anyone who uses acrylic paints: store the bottles upside down. then when you open it, stir immediatly. that might help. the pigment builds up in the now-bottem, or commenly known as the top.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 18, 2004 12:45 AM

Thanks all

I have had another go using isopropyl rather than the metho/water mix - WAY better, but still goes off too fast for an old enamel-hand like me - I can't help myself, I've just gotta go back over it Sad [:(]

!

I'll try for some retarder next LHS visit, I reckon that might be just the ticket!

Cheers, Andy!

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nicholma

Member since
September 2003
From: New Zealand

Posted by nicholma on Sunday, April 18, 2004 2:49 AM

I've always found that 2 coats produces the best result and don't go over the first coat until its totally dry ie after a couple of hours or more. I brush straight from the bottle without any thining. Also use the widest softest brush you have.

Kia ora, Mark "Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas"

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South Aussie

Member since
August 2003
From: South Australia

Posted by South Aussie on Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:57 AM

Andy,
Over the years of using Tamyia Acrylics I have found the only thinners to use during use is their own brand Acrylic thinners during any painting work, I only use metho/ water mix or isopropyl to clean up when finished.

Wayne I enjoy getting older, especially when I consider the alternative.

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erush

Member since
May 2003
From: USA, GA

Posted by erush on Monday, April 19, 2004 9:36 PM

Andy, I can't say enough good things about Tamiya acrylics using them to airbrush, but I don't like them for hand brushing. I use IPA to thin them like some of the others mentioned and it does the best job IMO for the airbrush. I had a similar experience to yours once when I used some Model Master thinner in the Tamiya paint. They didn't play well together.

For brush painting, I have found Vellejo acrylics to be the best thing since sliced bread. Thinned about 50% with tap water they give one coat coverage, and don't pull off if you go back over with a second stroke. They are worth their weight in gold!! They have around 200 colors in their range also, so if you can get them down there, try them out. I think you'll like them.

Good luck,

Eric

Hi, I'm Eric and I'm a Modelholic too. I think I have PE poisioning.

"Friendly fire...isn't"

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 19, 2004 11:49 PM

Don't bother hand brushing Tamiya or Gunze. They are hard to brush with. MM Acryl, Polly Scale and Vallejo are all very nice for brushing.

Save the Tamiya's for your airbrush. Go out and get some of the above mentioned acrylics for brush painting.

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albert_sy2

Member since
May 2004
From: Singapore

Posted by albert_sy2 on Friday, May 14, 2004 11:21 PM

I use Tamiya acrylic thinner on Tamiya paints. Gunze paints are impossible to handbrush.

I've seen this "sand" like consistency when I was just starting modelling. It came about because of two things:

- Too much water to thin the paint (if you used water, like for Gunze).
- Too much pressure on the brush when painting.

Try to use only a "drop" of thinner in the Tamiya paint next time. Tamiya acrylics are usually the right consistency for brushpainting out of the bottle anyway; the drop of thinner is only to keep it from drying up too fast in your pallette.

When brushpainting, dip the brush only halfway in the paint. Wipe off (on a convenient surface like some paper) the gob of paint at the end of your brush before actually painting the model: you want to start painting thinly.

Don't press too hard on the brush when painting. Imagine that the brush is a technical pen, with the ink just flowing from the brush onto the model.

Don't go for full coverage on the first pass. Let it dry first, then do another pass. Let dry again, then one final pass. Usually my first pass is in the wind direction of the airplane, the second is perpendicular to the first, and the last pass in the same direction as the first. This gives me a good opaque coverage. Three passes should be enough. Too many passes and you risk covering up panel lines and other detail.

If all else fails, use lacquer thinner to thin your acylic paint. But it's just as hazardous to health as enamels, maybe worse! However, with lacquer thinner, the acrylic will flow as smooth as anything you can imagine.

Groovy baby

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 15, 2004 10:55 AM

Use new paint on each major painting project. Once that bottle is open, the sterling qualities manufactured into the paint by Polly Scale, Testor, etc. start to go bye-bye. Consider the time, effort and money you've put into your model...isn't it worth the cost of a bottle of olive drab? Also, warm up your mind and hand by using your paint and brush on some scrap plastic (picnic plates are great) just before you start your project. It will refresh your tactile memory and you will learn exactly what condition of wetness and thickness your paint is in, and how it will behave when you actually apply it to your model. Sounds kind of Zen but, hey, it worked for Michaelangelo.

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f_baquiran

Member since
April 2004
From: Paranaque, Philippines

Posted by f_baquiran on Saturday, May 15, 2004 1:26 PM

Use thinner specifically for Tamiya Acrylics. I've tried mixtures of alcohol and water combination with mixed results. Now I only use Tamiya Acrylic thinner and I don't have any problems with it. Although it is harder to brush it than enamels because of the speed it dries.

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MusicCity

Member since
January 2004
From: USA

Posted by MusicCity on Saturday, May 15, 2004 4:29 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by f_baquiran

Use thinner specifically for Tamiya Acrylics. I've tried mixtures of alcohol and water combination with mixed results. Now I only use Tamiya Acrylic thinner and I don't have any problems with it. Although it is harder to brush it than enamels because of the speed it dries.

Like I mentioned somewhere up there, I don't brush paint very large areas so I am sure no expert on the techniques.

Lately, though, I've gotten to the point where I don't use any true thinner in acrylic paint for brushing. I use the top of a film can, dip out about 10 drops of paint, and add a couple of drops of acrylic retarder (Createx to be specific). It thins the paint enough that it brushes well and makes it take about the same time to dry as enamel. In reality, that's a much higher percentage of retarder than should be used in that little bit of paint, but so far it's worked great.

Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page

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Brush Painting Acrylics - HELP!