Why do you use Lacquer paints or Acrylics

Eaglecash867

 

 

 

Good info!  Thanks.

When I left the model building world, there were really only two choices of model paint that were well-established at that time...Testors/Model Master and Tamiya.  Even then it was an either/or situation as far as the nomenclature went.  Enamel or Acrylic.  It messed with my head a little bit, even as a teenager, because I had a little bit of exposure to the automotive paint world through helping friends with restoration projects on old Mustangs.  I had become accustomed to hearing correct terminology regarding paint, with Acrylic Enamel being something that was mentioned a lot.  Definitely not an either/or situation like the model building world made it seem.  When I came back to the hobby 25 years later, there was a much bigger variety of choices, so the screwed up nomenclature had just gotten worse.  Now it was enamel OR acrylic OR lacquer.  LOL.  Really messed with my head a little bit, but I just accepted it.  Your explanation about the origin of MCW paints really makes sense and I think it kind of amplifies how the model building world has kind of led to a distorted understanding of what an enamel actually is, versus a lacquer, and so on.  Because of all of that, I pretty much just go by smell when I try a new paint to determine what to thin it with.  I had the mineral spirits ready when my new MCW enamels arrived (well...not really new...but new to me), but once I opened the jar, I could tell right away that mineral spirits weren't going to be a good choice.  Grabbed my jar of Mr. Leveling Thinner and it worked beautifully.  Just out of curiosity though, I tried mineral spirits as well for a test shot on a spoon.  That didn't have good results.  

 

Back in the day so to speak, I shot Duluxe alkyd enamels in auto refinishing. That's old fashioned enamel. The standard dry thinner for it ( or medium dry) was Dupont 3812. You could use 3812 in any old fashioned enamel to include Testors, or you could do a final wipe down of the vehicle with it and I stocked 5 gal containers of the stuff even after switching to acrylic enamel. 3812 is much like mineral spirits.

The new enamels in the 70's from Dupont was Centari acrylic enamel. 3812 was a no go in it but you could wipe the vehicle down. The new medium thinner for Centari was Dupont 8022. At first people used 3661 lacquer thinner but the paint went kind of brittle/fragile. Thus 8022 ( they also had a high speed reducer and a slow but on average 8022 did the job). 8022 also worked with the overall finish high gloss hardener or with the more liquid spot repair hardener..

RM, Martin Senior, Ditzler and no name paints weren't far behind Dupont in coming out with their versions of similar acrylic enamels. Now that's just enamels, there are a slew of other products.

Sherwin Williams filled a nitch in fleet refinishing around 1979 or so with a catalyzed Poly Acrylic. This stuff had no fade in the colors fleets liked to use, like reds and yellows that tended to fade easy previously. Dupont went the Urethane route, also catalyzed and pretty much became the standard to meet on chip and fade resistance for fleets and big rig refinishing. This was called Imron. Hot rodders too liked getting their hands on this stuff for under body and chassis paint.

oldermodelguy

 

 

Eaglecash867

 

Exactly.  I think the world of model paints is mostly to blame for that.  All this time, the conventional wisdom regarding enamel paints in the model world is that they're going to be oil-based and thin/clean up with mineral spirits or paint thinner.  At least, that's what I thought.  Then along came MCW paints a couple of weeks ago for me, and their enamels aren't oil-based and don't get along with mineral spirits or paint thinner.  They thin and clean up with lacquer thinner though, and smell like lacquer thinner...even though they're enamels.

 

 

 

 

The base in paint can be many things that hold and adhere the pigments, nitrocelulose in old lacquers, synthetic resin in alkyd enamels, uerathane resin, poly uethane,  poly acrylic. Acrylic is the agent, some are waterborne, some solvent. I first shot solvent acrylic enamel and lacquer in the 1/1 refinishing business back in 1974 before the model industry even thought of solvent based acrylics. By late 70's catalysts came out to further kick the acrylic enamels, harden them to make them more durable. In the 70's waterborne base color coat came along this was the kick off of base coat clear coat systems we see today. Every production vehicle today is base coat clear coat, though I don't think the color coat is water based these days. And 2K top coats were born.

The clinker in both art and models that messes with my head is the cross platform paints or what I term as hybrid. That is water or solvent thinning or clean up. Windsor Newton has oil artist paint with water clean up, an oximoron. I have oil stains, smell like oil stains, acts like oil stain but water clean up, that I use in washes often. Paints like Tamiya acrylics , again water or solvents work in them, water, alcohol or LT actually. And there are others like it. This is where the nomenclature thing comes in. And it's crazy, because the next acrylic you try may be waterborne only. But for the hybrid I have no idea what the emulsifyer is. For oil and vinegar I get it, emulsifyers that can be used are well known. Not so much with these paints, so it's a bit of a mystery.

MCW, both enamel and lacquer are automotive grade acrylic, solvent based. It's not a new system at all. It is new that they are being bottled up as model paints. I forget off hand who manufactures the base paints and tints but it's one of the auto paint manufacturers, I want to say RM or Ditzler. MCW has the whole system including a sptrometer camera. They can snap a photo of a color, feed it to a computer and the formula generated. As they gain more and more that then becomes a stocked formula that you can have made up. Many autobody shops have the same systems. Hardware stores have something similar for latex paints these days.

 

Good info!  Thanks.

When I left the model building world, there were really only two choices of model paint that were well-established at that time...Testors/Model Master and Tamiya.  Even then it was an either/or situation as far as the nomenclature went.  Enamel or Acrylic.  It messed with my head a little bit, even as a teenager, because I had a little bit of exposure to the automotive paint world through helping friends with restoration projects on old Mustangs.  I had become accustomed to hearing correct terminology regarding paint, with Acrylic Enamel being something that was mentioned a lot.  Definitely not an either/or situation like the model building world made it seem.  When I came back to the hobby 25 years later, there was a much bigger variety of choices, so the screwed up nomenclature had just gotten worse.  Now it was enamel OR acrylic OR lacquer.  LOL.  Really messed with my head a little bit, but I just accepted it.  Your explanation about the origin of MCW paints really makes sense and I think it kind of amplifies how the model building world has kind of led to a distorted understanding of what an enamel actually is, versus a lacquer, and so on.  Because of all of that, I pretty much just go by smell when I try a new paint to determine what to thin it with.  I had the mineral spirits ready when my new MCW enamels arrived (well...not really new...but new to me), but once I opened the jar, I could tell right away that mineral spirits weren't going to be a good choice.  Grabbed my jar of Mr. Leveling Thinner and it worked beautifully.  Just out of curiosity though, I tried mineral spirits as well for a test shot on a spoon.  That didn't have good results.  

Eaglecash867

 

Exactly.  I think the world of model paints is mostly to blame for that.  All this time, the conventional wisdom regarding enamel paints in the model world is that they're going to be oil-based and thin/clean up with mineral spirits or paint thinner.  At least, that's what I thought.  Then along came MCW paints a couple of weeks ago for me, and their enamels aren't oil-based and don't get along with mineral spirits or paint thinner.  They thin and clean up with lacquer thinner though, and smell like lacquer thinner...even though they're enamels.

 

The base in paint can be many things that hold and adhere the pigments, nitrocelulose in old lacquers, synthetic resin in alkyd enamels, uerathane resin, poly uethane,  poly acrylic. Acrylic is the agent, some are waterborne, some solvent. I first shot solvent acrylic enamel and lacquer in the 1/1 refinishing business back in 1974 before the model industry even thought of solvent based acrylics. By late 70's catalysts came out to further kick the acrylic enamels, harden them to make them more durable. In the 70's waterborne base color coat came along this was the kick off of base coat clear coat systems we see today. Every production vehicle today is base coat clear coat, though I don't think the color coat is water based these days. And 2K top coats were born.

The clinker in both art and models that messes with my head is the cross platform paints or what I term as hybrid. That is water or solvent thinning or clean up. Windsor Newton has oil artist paint with water clean up, an oximoron. I have oil stains, smell like oil stains, acts like oil stain but water clean up, that I use in washes often. Paints like Tamiya acrylics , again water or solvents work in them, water, alcohol or LT actually. And there are others like it. This is where the nomenclature thing comes in. And it's crazy, because the next acrylic you try may be waterborne only. But for the hybrid I have no idea what the emulsifyer is. For oil and vinegar I get it, emulsifyers that can be used are well known. Not so much with these paints, so it's a bit of a mystery.

MCW, both enamel and lacquer are automotive grade acrylic, solvent based. It's not a new system at all. It is new that they are being bottled up as model paints. I forget off hand who manufactures the base paints and tints but it's one of the auto paint manufacturers, I want to say RM or Ditzler. MCW has the whole system including a sptrometer camera. They can snap a photo of a color, feed it to a computer and the formula generated. As they gain more and more that then becomes a stocked formula that you can have made up. Many autobody shops have the same systems. Hardware stores have something similar for latex paints these days.

missileman2000

There is a nomenclature problem these days.  You will find both real old=fashioned lacquer these days, and acrylic lacquer.  They are similar but not the same.

Exactly.  I think the world of model paints is mostly to blame for that.  All this time, the conventional wisdom regarding enamel paints in the model world is that they're going to be oil-based and thin/clean up with mineral spirits or paint thinner.  At least, that's what I thought.  Then along came MCW paints a couple of weeks ago for me, and their enamels aren't oil-based and don't get along with mineral spirits or paint thinner.  They thin and clean up with lacquer thinner though, and smell like lacquer thinner...even though they're enamels.

There is a nomenclature problem these days.  You will find both real old=fashioned lacquer these days, and acrylic lacquer.  They are similar but not the same.

Man, I've bounced around over the years (thanks ADHD) but I think I finally found a favorite. I started using the Mr. Color lacquers about a year ago after using Tamiya acrylics pretty exclusively and realized that a lot of my problems airbrushing are cleaning related. I switched to lacquers because I finally bought a spray booth and also because cleaning is just much easier between colors and also I just like the durability.  
Anyways, I started using the AK Real Colors about a month ago on a recommendation from another builder at my LHS. I am hooked. The "scale" look is a wee bit better than other paint I've used. It also helps that I can mix it 2:1 thinner to paint and every time it's perfect. Sold. 

I have a stash of enamels and have also been using Tamiya (thinned with isopropyl alcohol), MRP and Mr Color (thinned with their leveling thinner) with great success.  BTW the Revell eMail (stupid name) line of enamels is pretty nice.  I've used a couple of them.  They come in little tins like Humbrol (which is also a nice enamel)

I've had no luck with water based acrylics.  What I like about them is you can produce a dead flat finish.  I just struggle getting  them to spray right.

plasticjunkie

 Been using enamels since the early 1970s but with all this environmental silliness going on making enamels hard to get I have been switching to lacquers. I can dial down the psi in my airbrush and shoot hair thin lines all day without clogging, spitting or skipping. 

 

  Started using the MRP lacquers when the old Model Master Enamels became almost impossible to get.  Also love being able to do detail work with brush and Testor's square bottle and if I slip with the brush on a lacquer basecoat, the errant brush mark cleans right up with mineral spirits without doing a thing to the lacquer basecoat.  The less than one hour cure time of the lacquers is a game changer as well.

 Been using enamels since the early 1970s but with all this environmental silliness going on making enamels hard to get I have been switching to lacquers. I can dial down the psi in my airbrush and shoot hair thin lines all day without clogging, spitting or skipping. 

Jsizemo

So having come back to the hobby and using my first air brush a few months back I have not used anything but acrylics (model air, Tamyia, and mostly Ammo by Mig), so I want to get folks opinion on using lacquers vs acrylics, why do you use one over the other.  I have not used/or tried any lacquers and wondering if I should.  

 

I use both, for various reasons.

I use acrylics mainly when I am painting parts. Because I usually paint smaller parts with a brush and you can clean up with water. Plus acrylic paints usually smell less.

Then I use lacquers mainly on car bodies. There are more custom colors available, and places that will mix up any color and they sell paints ready to shoot with an airbrush.

Lacquer paints seem to dry faster as well.

I ordinarily use enamels because I frequently need a good glossy finish on a model, and have a hard time getting a good gloss on acrlyic without an overcoat.  To me, overcoats are too glossy, a wet coat show car finish which is not really appropriate for most vehicles in daily service.  I also use lacquer ocasionally when I need a color that is easily available in lacquers.

The only lacquer I've used is Alclad, I have a positive airflow spraybooth that exhausts air to the outside, so the smell and fumes are a non issue for me. I've used Model Air, but for years I've been exclusively using Tamiya acrylics.

Very simple and trouble free, dependably good results for the painting I do. I can thin it with lacquer thinner, alcohol or leveling thinner, all work very well.

Cleaning the airbrush is just a cinch, lacquer thinner is aggressive enough to immediately mostly dissolve it, with minor brushing to completely remove all traces. I don't demand as much of paint finishes as others may, so for them maybe lacquer does offer better results.

And I've used various lacquers over the years, right now I'm using the Tamiya LP series in the little glass bottles. I use that because my local hobby store began stocking it. But I thin it with Mr Leveling thinner. I'm very used to thinning lacquers and enamels and now alcrylics. I use a bit of everything, even craft paints.

Soon I'll be painting a pink Cadillac for someone else. I'll either mix the color from enamel and shoot straight up to the finish or mix it from a combo of craft paint and artist acrylic as the base color coat then clear lacquer it. Artist acrylic is quite durable, the craft paint is just the tinting color to get from white to light pink.

Now lacquer air drying is rapid and enamel is not but to that end I use a paint dryer ( food dehydrator) so it levels the playing field a bit closer..

Tojo72

Lacquer thinner with Tamiya acrylics,the best of both worlds.

 

Jsizemo

Which lacquers are you using now?

 

Lacquer thinner with Tamiya acrylics,the best of both worlds.

I'm using pretty much all MRP lacquers.  Great color selection for military aircraft, and the color accuracy is as good as the old Model Master Enamels were.  Their line of airbrush ready lacquers require no thinning.  They're pricey, but they pay for themselves just in the lack of BS you have to deal with when using them.

Which lacquers are you using now?

I am almost exclusively using lacquers now.  They have been the most trouble-free and are the most reliable in a high (5,800' above sea level) and dry (Average humidity less than 30%) climate.  Smell isn't much of a problem for me with the way I airbrush with low pressure, low volume, and working close-in to the pieces being painted.  As OMG already said, lacquers also have the best adhesion and the best durability.  The only time I use acrylics is when there is no other choice for a color I need.  Other than that, they're not worth the drawbacks.

All you can do is try lacquer and see if you like it. If you do try it then make sure your airbrush is really clean of any acrylic residue because trhe lacquer will loosen that.

The plus for lacquer is super easy airbrush clean up. Lacquer thinner literally melts lacquer paint and dried residue. Also very strong adhesion, thinner coats will cover well. Most will thin to even 2x their volume with thinner and spray very well. And several brands have an extensive array of colors available. Finally they air dry rapidly. Lacquer makes for a durable hard coat finish.

The down side is stink, most smell obnoxious thus why many switch to acrylics.Of the acrylics you mention the Tamiya, especially if thinned with lacquer thinner sprays most like lacquer. But there is nothing wrong with any of the paints you currently use when put down over a good primer coat..

For me it boils down to color availability,overall availability,and ease of use.Some of the newer acrylics have a steep learning curve.

That being said,I basically use regular Tamiya thinned with lacquer thinner,almost foolproof,the AK-Real line is like Tamiya with more variety in colors,I also thin it with Lacquer thinner,and I use Vallejo Model Color, which surprisingly I have been able to unlock with no difficulty using their thinner and flow improver.I have also used Mission Model acrylic with their own thinner,not bad.

When something new comes out,I don't go out and replace the whole line that I have,but I will experiment with something new if I don't already have the color needed.