Tamiya XF-1 dried glossy??

stikpusher

A few questions:

1, did you stir the paint thoroughly to mix it, or just shake the bottle a bit?

2, what did you use to thin the XF-1 for airbrushing?

3, how heavy were your three coats that you airbrushed on? 

Each one on its own can cause the paint to not dry flat if done improperly.

 

 

Hi. Like the OP and Tojo72, I had this happen too. I was using XF-82 and I only do bristle brushes. I'm new to this line; I've been out of the hobby for ten years. Brand new bottle and mixed thoroughly, but because the tutorials say Tamiya paints dry quickly and I had a quarter-inch band to paint on a 1:6 WWII figure's helmet, I thinned it a bit. I was running into a situation where the first paint I laid down at the start of the stripe was beginning to dry before I got to the end; I was leaving brush marks in it where the two ends met. So I thinned it with X-20A until they evened out.

The advice here seems be that I should keep laying down glossy coats until one of them turns it all flat. ...or something...

I let it dry overnight; it had to have been at least six hours. The second coat did the same thing and of course seems to have undermined the first coat as well.

I also bought some Tamiya lacquer paints (bottle and rattle cans) and a respirator. Out of all of them, I'm liking the respirator best although the lacquer sprays are working fine.

I'm quite disappointed in this whole experiment. I really didn't have time or money for it. The project is overbudget and incomplete at the deadline. 

stikpusher

A few questions:

1, did you stir the paint thoroughly to mix it, or just shake the bottle a bit?

2, what did you use to thin the XF-1 for airbrushing?

3, how heavy were your three coats that you airbrushed on? 

Each one on its own can cause the paint to not dry flat if done improperly.

 

 

Hi. Like the OP and Tojo72, I had this happen too. I was using XF-82 and I only do bristle brushes. I'm new to this line; I've been out of the hobby for ten years. Brand new bottle and mixed thoroughly, but because the tutorials say Tamiya paints dry quickly and I had a quarter-inch band to paint on a 1:6 WWII figure's helmet, I thinned it a bit. I was running into a situation where the first paint I laid down at the start of the stripe was beginning to dry before I got to the end; I was leaving brush marks in it where the two ends met. So I thinned it with X-20A until they evened out.

The advice here seems be that I should keep laying down glossy coats until one of them turns it all flat. ...or something...

I let it dry overnight; it had to have been at least six hours. The second coat did the same thing and of course seems to have undermined the first coat as well.

I also bought some Tamiya lacquer paints (bottle and rattle cans) and a respirator. Out of all of them, I'm liking the respirator best although the lacquer sprays are working fine.

I'm quite disappointed in this whole experiment. I really didn't have time or money for it. The project is overbudget and incomplete at the deadline. 

After both Greg's and Don's post I also thought, or it brought to mind, primer and the effect on matt or gloss finishes it can have. While Greg is trying to get full gloss I'll stay with flats for this message for the sake of the threads topic.. For flats I don't mind that the primer itself not have that egg shell sheen, so it can have a bit more tooth to it with matt or flat paint. Unlike with gloss I want that baby bottom smooth and at least the egg shell sheen. If you put down a couple light coats of flat color over a totally flat primer the chances of the color being truly flat is more likely in my experience. You need enough flat color to get coverage. Now personally while I do use Tamiya acrylics and have had success with both flat and gloss, I prefer Vallejo paints for true flat or matt. Vallejo is highly and finely pigmented, even sometimes a single coat will give coverage and still hide well.And it's a really thin layer of paint compared to many other brands in my observation at least.

Also while they don't cover as well, flat craft paints can give a good true flat finish on a primed surface. It will likey be less smooth to the touch than Vallejo though. I would never use craft paints on bare plastic, it won't hold. But you can get really some nice results when put down right to a primed surface. All this has it's degree of speculation involved in it concerning other peoples idea of what matt, flat or gloss really is I suppose. So I'm just placing the thoughts out there for others to try. IE, I know what I like to see but understand it may not be someone elses ideal.

missileman2000

One thing is important to keep in mind with  is that coat thickness affects the sheen.  If you put down flat paint with a very wet coat, you can get a semi-met sheen.  And a very dry, thin coat of gloss will not be as shiney as a full wet coat.

While this is somewhat true with clearcoats, it is much harder to control with them.

 

 

 

Thanks, Don. I'm aware of that and I continue to be baffled by folks swearing by multiple light coats to achieve a gloss coat. Either I'm missing something, or my definition of 'gloss' is lots different from folks swearing by multiple light coats.

You're advice over the years of a heavy coat just short of running has held true for me.

On a side note, I've been experimenting with various methods and products, my early results with Vallejo Gloss Primer of all things are looking promising. I would have guessed it would be similar to Badger Stynylrez Gloss Black, both being a water-based polyurethane, but that seems not to be the case.

This amazes me because I've been a Vallejo primer griper forever. It would take forever to dry, not adhere well, and not sand. The gloss formula must be significantly different.

One thing is important to keep in mind with  is that coat thickness affects the sheen.  If you put down flat paint with a very wet coat, you can get a semi-met sheen.  And a very dry, thin coat of gloss will not be as shiney as a full wet coat.

While this is somewhat true with clearcoats, it is much harder to control with them.

I'm wondering if TM has found success myself ? Don't leave us wondering TM !

OMG,

So what I'm fiddling with is trying to lay down a very glossy and thinnest possible base coat for "metal" paint of one sort or another. Because I need thin, I prefer the gloss base also act as a primer, which rules out the X-1. I hadn't though about trying Tamiya LP, though. I just bought some LP locally last week, to fiddle with. Needless to say, the LHS was out of black. But I'll try it in the future.

I've been using Alclad gloss base, but I seem to have to lay it on pretty thick to get what I want.

I think you're right about the eyes of the beholder. Having been messing with various gloss clear coats for a couple years off and on, I already concluded that everyone must have a different idea of what gloss is. Mine is apparently unrealistic. (think lacquer, wet-sanded and finished with Novus...and I want that straight out of the airbrush). That's where my 'unrealistic' comes from!

Thanks for the tips, I can test with another LP color to see how it works.

Back to TM's original topic, didn't mean to sidetrack your thread.

Greg

  I have been fighting a certain piece for a week trying to lay down an acceptable gloss black.

Greg for me gloss black has never been the same since Model Master Classic Black enamel bit the dust. Nothing seems to really replace it. But I've gotten nice blacks with Tamiya X-1 thinned with denatured alcohol and also Tamiya LP bottled paint thinned with Mr leveling thinner. Now "nice" is in the eyes of the beholder for sure and truly nice to me is MM Classic Black not just for smoothness and gloss but tone of black. The new paints are smooth and glossy but the tone isn't still quite CB. But your eyes might behold them as fine. Yes I know I'm being nit picky lol !

lurch

Dont feel bad Greg. I recieved a couple of those and I didnt even know what they were. I got those from a friend about 5 years ago and just now learning what they were.

 

Say, that does make me feel better, Lurch.

So now we both know.....thanks!

BTW, Teenage Modeler, I have been fighting a certain piece for a week trying to lay down an acceptable gloss black. I wonder if we could trade our bad techniques, maybe we'd both be problem solved.

But seriously, all the advice you got here is good, you should have no problems next time with proper mixing and lighter coats.

So great to see a younger modeler learning. Hope you keep at it, it can be a fulfulling hobby despite the occasional frustrations.

Dont feel bad Greg. I recieved a couple of those and I didnt even know what they were. I got those from a friend about 5 years ago and just now learning what they were.

Yes, you can always do a flat top coat. But wait until the paint is fully dried and cured. If it is still tacky to the touch, it's not dried or cured yet. 

stikpusher

 

 

Teenage Modeler

 

 

stikpusher

A few questions:

1, did you stir the paint thoroughly to mix it, or just shake the bottle a bit?

2, what did you use to thin the XF-1 for airbrushing?

3, how heavy were your three coats that you airbrushed on? 

Each one on its own can cause the paint to not dry flat if done improperly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd say that I mixed it thoroughly, but that was an hour before I sprayed the paint. I guess  should've mixed it more before painting. I used a toothpick and really tried to scrape the bottom of the paint to make sure everything is mixed (but that was an hour ago).

 

As for thinning, the paint was already thin enough for airbrushing, so I didn't really add thinner.

 

As for the coats, I felt that they were a bit too splotchy, which could mean that the paint was a bit thick. For good measure, I did add a little thinner, and I guess I applied a thick coat. Too thick, that when I checked this morning, it was still tacky (I left fingerprints on the pant). I guess I was trying to compensate the too thick paint. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In an hours time, the paint can begin to separate again, and as others have pointed out, a toothpick does not have adequate surface area to properly mix the paint between its carrier and pigments. This will cause a glossy finish with flat paints as the flattening agent is not properly distributed throughout the paint. So there is problem #1

If it took more than 10-20 minutes for it to be dry to the touch, the coat is too heavy. Tamiya paint only drys over an extended time period when it is applied too heavily. That will also cause the glossy or shiny finish with flat paints. There is problem #2.

Not using a thinner is a red flag. In the nearly 40 years that I've been using Tamiya paints, I've never come across any ready to airbrush straight from the jar.  When they are properly mixed, they have a viscosity similar to a light motor oil. They thin well with their own brand thinners (naturally), as well as Gunze's Mr Levelling Thinner (excellent stuff), Isopropyl Alcohol, or hardware store lacquer thinner (which speeds up drying time, makes flat painted even flatter, and does have serious odor if you're sensitive to such things). I've had good results with all of those thinners.

For stirring l like to use the Tamiya Stir Stick which have a screwdriver type blade at one end for stirring, and a little spoon at the other for transferring paint out of the jar in precise amounts.

 

Well, you are right. 1 day in, and the paint still feels tacky. I guess I should've sprayed it thin. I was worried that the paint would be too rough when it dries, but then this happened. Oh well, I could just add a flat over it.

They're not for Tony Montana... 

stikpusher

For stirring l like to use the Tamiya Stir Stick which have a screwdriver type blade at one end for stirring, and a little spoon at the other for transferring paint out of the jar in precise amounts.

I had no idea what the little spoon end was for. Boy, do I feel dumb.

Teenage Modeler

 

 

stikpusher

A few questions:

1, did you stir the paint thoroughly to mix it, or just shake the bottle a bit?

2, what did you use to thin the XF-1 for airbrushing?

3, how heavy were your three coats that you airbrushed on? 

Each one on its own can cause the paint to not dry flat if done improperly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd say that I mixed it thoroughly, but that was an hour before I sprayed the paint. I guess  should've mixed it more before painting. I used a toothpick and really tried to scrape the bottom of the paint to make sure everything is mixed (but that was an hour ago).

 

As for thinning, the paint was already thin enough for airbrushing, so I didn't really add thinner.

 

As for the coats, I felt that they were a bit too splotchy, which could mean that the paint was a bit thick. For good measure, I did add a little thinner, and I guess I applied a thick coat. Too thick, that when I checked this morning, it was still tacky (I left fingerprints on the pant). I guess I was trying to compensate the too thick paint. 

 

 

In an hours time, the paint can begin to separate again, and as others have pointed out, a toothpick does not have adequate surface area to properly mix the paint between its carrier and pigments. This will cause a glossy finish with flat paints as the flattening agent is not properly distributed throughout the paint. So there is problem #1

If it took more than 10-20 minutes for it to be dry to the touch, the coat is too heavy. Tamiya paint only drys over an extended time period when it is applied too heavily. That will also cause the glossy or shiny finish with flat paints. There is problem #2.

Not using a thinner is a red flag. In the nearly 40 years that I've been using Tamiya paints, I've never come across any ready to airbrush straight from the jar.  When they are properly mixed, they have a viscosity similar to a light motor oil. They thin well with their own brand thinners (naturally), as well as Gunze's Mr Levelling Thinner (excellent stuff), Isopropyl Alcohol, or hardware store lacquer thinner (which speeds up drying time, makes flat painted even flatter, and does have serious odor if you're sensitive to such things). I've had good results with all of those thinners.

For stirring l like to use the Tamiya Stir Stick which have a screwdriver type blade at one end for stirring, and a little spoon at the other for transferring paint out of the jar in precise amounts.

What you're describing is how unthinned paint might flow. Tamiya acrylic is not a real thick paint yet I most often thin it 1-1. So equal parts thinner to paint. On flat XF series paints I often just use 91 isopropyle alcohol. Otherwise I use hardware store lacquer thinner. If that sprays a little too thin which is doubtful, just add a drop or two more paint. See what that get you, it should be fine.

The mixer mentioned above is the same one I use. But not so  much with with Tamiya, personally.

Teenage Modeler

As for thinning, the paint was already thin enough for airbrushing, so I didn't really add thinner.

If Tamiya paint was already thin enough to airbrush, it sounds like what others have said about making sure it is thoroughly mixed is where your problem is.  A toothpick really isn't going to get the job done due to the pointed end and the fact that there just isn't much surface area to a toothpick.  

Get one of these, and you'll be able to eliminate incomplete mixing as the culprit.  Just be careful not to push it too hard into the bottom or sides of the glass jar...it can break it.  Ask me how I know.  

https://www.amazon.com/Badger-Air-Brush-Co-121-Paint/dp/B000BROV02

stikpusher

A few questions:

1, did you stir the paint thoroughly to mix it, or just shake the bottle a bit?

2, what did you use to thin the XF-1 for airbrushing?

3, how heavy were your three coats that you airbrushed on? 

Each one on its own can cause the paint to not dry flat if done improperly.

 

 

I'd say that I mixed it thoroughly, but that was an hour before I sprayed the paint. I guess  should've mixed it more before painting. I used a toothpick and really tried to scrape the bottom of the paint to make sure everything is mixed (but that was an hour ago).

As for thinning, the paint was already thin enough for airbrushing, so I didn't really add thinner.

As for the coats, I felt that they were a bit too splotchy, which could mean that the paint was a bit thick. For good measure, I did add a little thinner, and I guess I applied a thick coat. Too thick, that when I checked this morning, it was still tacky (I left fingerprints on the pant). I guess I was trying to compensate the too thick paint. 

I agree, if you put a stick in that bottle you may find a bunch of solids on the bottom that need to be stirred in not just shaken up. I use a Badger battery powered mixer myself but it's not a must with Tamiya just faster...

Now when Stynylrez primer settles thats another matter and the power mixer makes it quick where the stirrer seems to be about impossible.

I second Stik, especially on stirring the paint, that was the first thing that came to my mind as I read your post.

As far as the thinner goes, I've used lacquer thinner to thin Tamiya matte acrylics for airbrushing, and it has the effect of making them even flatter than they are with Tamiya's acrylic thinner.  If you hadn't, you might want to try that.

Like the OP says it's not a biggie on this build,I have to decal anyway,then I'll just flat everything.

But yea maybe not stirred enough

I can only think of two possibilties, either it could be a matter of improper prep and bottling by Tamiya, or the paint was not completely blended by physical stirring prior to being used. The solids do have a way of becoming very thick, as they settle to the bottom of the bottle. 

I'd be interested to learn of the results, if you do go back to a very complete stirring of the ingredients and respray.

A few questions:

1, did you stir the paint thoroughly to mix it, or just shake the bottle a bit?

2, what did you use to thin the XF-1 for airbrushing?

3, how heavy were your three coats that you airbrushed on? 

Each one on its own can cause the paint to not dry flat if done improperly.

You know just yesterday,my XF-83 sprayed glossy too.