SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

Acrylic v. enamel

5126 views
21 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: down South
Acrylic v. enamel
Posted by ga.retread on Thursday, September 2, 2004 9:45 PM
HELP, please!

How do I decide which type of paint to use? I like to build mainly armor (WWII), and I can't decide whether to use acrylics or enamels. I see the models displayed in FSM and some are done with one, and some are done with the other. Also, some of you use acrylics for the main paint job and then weather and detail with enamels.

I'm so confused.
"Shoot low boys, they're riding Shetland Ponies!" - Lewis Grizzard, revered Southern humorist
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posted by maddafinga on Thursday, September 2, 2004 10:01 PM
I prefer enamels as I feel like they stick to the plastic a bit better. The drawback is that they smell and the cleaners are harsher. Acrylics are just as good as far as color is concerned, and I understand that if you prime them, they stick just fine with a little care. The bottom line here is that it's just personal preference, and color availability. If you have concerns about the smell or toxicity of enamels, then use acrylics. If you can't find a particular color in one, use the other. They are equally good.
Madda Trifles make perfection, but perfection is no trifle. -- Leonardo Da Vinci Tact is for those who lack the wit for sarcasm.--maddafinga
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Lower Alabama
Posted by saltydog on Thursday, September 2, 2004 10:21 PM
i love tamiya acrylics, but i hate the color selection. so, i went back to mm enamels for better adhesion properties, better color clarity, and a silky smooth finish everytime. acrylics are very, very user friendly as far as cleaning and thinning goes, but i'm gonna stick to mm enamels for the time being. if you choose acrylics, you'll surely run into a constant companion called tip dry more often, which can be curved a little with retarders and needle juice. enamels seem to beat acrylics in leveling abilities too, as enamels dry more slowly, thus allowing enough open time to level out. both are excellent paints, you'll have to try both and see what you like best. later.
Chris The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: British Columbia,Canada
Posted by bstrump on Friday, September 3, 2004 12:53 AM
I've stuck with enamels myself. I got turned off of acrylics years ago when Testor's debuted their original line of acrylics. They were fussy to work with, the glosses dried not very glossy and very grainy and on and on. I tried them all( Pro Modeler, Tamiya, Humbrol, etc) and they all left me wanting. Gunze seemed to work the best for me but it was never readily available. There's a reason why enamels are still around. They work the best.Smile [:)]
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Friday, September 3, 2004 1:52 AM
This is an article that I wrote (using various references) for my modeling club newsletter last month. It may not answer all your questions, but it may help.

"This month's tip concerns paint. A simple subject, but one that still baffles modelers. Paint is manufactured using complex formulas that are constantly being modified and improved.

What is paint?
Generally speaking, all paint is made up of three components: a pigment, a vehicle, and a solvent.
Pigment is the material that gives paint its color. Pigments can be organic or chemical, but pigments have nothing to do with how the paint is classified.
A paint vehicle is material that bonds to pigment and remains on the surface once the paint dries. The vehicle is what gives paint its protective properties.
A solvent is any liquid that dissolves the vehicle to make paint liquid in the bottle or can. Note that a solvent does not have to be a chemical. Water is a solvent if it dissolves the vehicle in a given paint.

How are paints classified?
There are only two general classifications of paint: enamels or lacquers.
Enamel paint is one that both dries and cures once applied to a surface. As the solvent evaporates, the vehicle undergoes a chemical reaction making it harder and less soluble than the liquid paint. This is why you typically can't remove fully cured enamel with the same solvent as in the original paint.
Lacquer only dries – it does not cure. The solvent evaporates with no chemical reaction. This is why water-based lacquers can be dissolved with water long after the paint has dried. This is also why applying multiple layers of lacquer can result in the underlying layers dissolving.

What about Acrylics?
"Acrylic" refers to the vehicle used in paint and not with how the paint reacts once it is applied. The vehicle in acrylic paint is a form of plastic and there are both "acrylic enamels" and "acrylic lacquers". There are also both petroleum-based and water-based solvents for each of these acrylics, depending on the vehicle formulation.
For years, modelers, hobby shop owners, and even "experts", have referred to modeling paints as either enamel/lacquer (meaning that the paint uses a chemical solvent) or acrylic (meaning that water is the solvent). This is just plain wrong and only adds to the confusion. Try adding water to a petroleum-based acrylic enamel and you quickly realize that not all acrylics are water-based. Water-based acrylics should be referred to as "aqueous acrylics".

What are the differences in paints?
Traditionally, enamels have used a relatively mild petroleum-based solvent with an alkyd vehicle. This combination, while generally safe, takes a long time to cure, sometimes weeks to reach maximum hardness. They are an extremely stable paint and can last for decades without degrading, if properly stored. There are now enamels that dry nearly as fast as lacquers and nearly as hard.
Lacquers tend to dry quicker and to a harder consistency than enamels – typically in 24 to 48 hours. However, they use harsher solvents to accelerate the drying time. These solvents can attack plastic parts, brush bristles, and brain cells with equal vigor. There are now lacquers available that use much milder solvents (including water) yet maintain their traditional hard finish.
With the advent of aqueous acrylics, many of the differences between traditional paints have merged, but aqueous paint has its own problems. Some people think aqueous paint doesn't "stick" to styrene parts like chemical paint. Aqueous paint is more sensitive to humidity and temperature. Modelers who choose aqueous acrylic paint generally do so to avoid exposure to chemicals.

So what's the best paint for me?
This is the ultimate question and one that each modeler must answer them self. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages between paints and manufacturers. Each modeler must evaluate the good and bad points and make their own choice.
It appears as though aqueous acrylic lacquers and petroleum-based acrylic enamels are two types of paint that are becoming the waves of the future.
Aqueous acrylic lacquers take the best properties of enamels and lacquers and combine them into a nice package. Although they don't dry as quickly or as hard as "traditional" lacquer, they are getting better. As environmental concerns grow, these paints may be the only option available a few years.
Petroleum-based acrylic enamels are modified versions of the same enamels modelers have used since the 1960's. Because they use an acrylic vehicle, these paints dry faster and harder, but they use a slightly harsher solvent than older enamels.
I hope that this article clears up the subject of paint (at least a little bit) and helps you decide which paint is right for you. Next month we'll continue with paint and cover some tips and tricks for storing and using paint more effectively."

Enjoy your modeling...

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: USA
Posted by MusicCity on Friday, September 3, 2004 6:26 AM
That's a first rate article, Robert. Well written and very informative. Thanks for posting it.

Ga.retread, as it mentions, the type of paint that YOU use is entirely up to you. As can be seen from the responses, many people prefer enamels. I think this is primarily for three reasons: 1) The finish is somewhat smoother than an acrylic finish, 2) One of the advantages of acrylics (its fast drying time) actually turns into a disadvantage because in many cases it just plain dries too fast, and 3) Enamels do stick to styrene better than acrylics.

I use acrylics pretty much exclusively. They take some getting used to though, and there are some circumstances where I still use enamels and laquers. The stores around here have a very good selection of Tamiya, Model Master, and Poly Scale acrylics so I can find pretty much any color I need. For cleanup I use mild household solvents and water, and I don't fill my basement with paint fumes any longer. Personally I'm perfectly content with acrylics and would never go back to enamel on a full-time basis again.
Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Friday, September 3, 2004 7:37 AM
Oh, please--not again!! I don't mean to complain and whine, but this is the start of about the 3,000th thread on acrylics vs. enamels. This has become worse than the less filling/tastes great ads.....Enough already!

There is a great sticky at the beginning of the painting and airbrushing section that addresses paints. In addition, I think it would be a great idea for someone to inlcude Robert's excellent post in the sticky.

Ultimately, it would be good to direct (divert?) members with these types of redundant questions and comments to that sticky.

Just my opinion
Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Kennesaw, GA
Posted by jdavidb on Friday, September 3, 2004 12:45 PM
There's always more to say about the situations in which we use acrylics and enamels. It's one of those subjects that seems boring, but I never get tired of it.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 4, 2004 1:27 AM
ive had this idea floating round my head for a while now....
im going to start the base colour with enamels (car body...) and then paint all the details with acrylics so if i stuff up i can remove the acryl with ease and leave the enamel untouched....
ive got a heap of acrlys now so when i get my ab im gonna start doin that....
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: A Spartan in the Wolverine State
Posted by rjkplasticmod on Saturday, September 4, 2004 9:57 AM
I spray paint with enamels, using mostly Model Master these days, with some Floquil & Humbrol for specific colors. However, for brush painting details, I prefer Vallejo acrylics. All depends on what works best for you & that requires a little experimentation.

Regards, Rick
RICK At My Age, I've Seen It All, Done It All, But I Don't Remember It All...
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: SETX. USA
Posted by tho9900 on Saturday, September 4, 2004 7:59 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rjkplasticmod

However, for brush painting details, I prefer Vallejo acrylics.


I agree with you... I use MM enamel (yes, even for airbrushing now after MikeV and some others helped me out on cleaning the airbrush afterwards) but "for the most part" I will always use acrylic for the details... only exception is red, and white... Red for some reason dries too dark for me in acryl, white covers worse than the enamel (i.e. takes many coats to be "white".

-----snip------

::news break:: I might have hit on something with white acryl tho... I went to stripe a arrestor hook on an A-1H tonight and reached up and grabbed my white acryl.. I almost put it back especially when I opened it and found it was the consistency of lightly thinned squadron green... I tried putting about 4-5 drops of Tamiya thinner into it and BAM!!!! it covered that hook in no time and it dried flat AND smooth... I might keep it around and when I get a new bottle, pour off the solvent from it when I get it home and thin it like I said... I think it might be mixed too thin from the factory is all... ::shrug:: works better than enamel when it is thick so I might change my mind on this one...
---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!
  • Member since
    February 2003
Posted by Sherman56 on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 1:32 PM
I'm not sure that one can model using just one or the other, especially doing weathered armour, but...
I try to use acrylic base coats Tamiya/PollyScale/Vallejo Air and then do my washes using thinned enamels and oils. That way I never worry about my wash lifting and/or "krinkling" my base coat. I also don't have to wait that nebulous whatever amount of time-24 hrs/2 days/a week/a month (actually read a month once) whatever on might think is appropriate, to make sure that my base coated has hardened sufficiently to allow me to do an enamel wash on enamel paint. I still can't figure out why a modeler would take all that time to do a model and then take any chance to ruin the paint job. I also disagree with a "barrier coat" of acrylic betwwen an enamel basecoat and enamel wash. All additional paint on a surface adds to the thickness of that surface and sometimes all those additional coats start to obscure fine detail especially in smaller scales
My2c BobC
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:53 AM
i personally use acrylics cos its easier and thats how life should be, but ive tried enamels and the results are superior but its in my opinion not worth the mess. thats just what i do. Sign - Welcome [#welcome] to the forums sherman56 ! (sorry i cant call you by your real name but your profile didnt have it.)
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 7:49 AM
I switched to enamels when I returned to modelling last year.

I started with Tamiya and Lifecolour, buth then discovered the wonderful world of Gunze acrylics, which IMHO are the best.

I still use enamels for dry brushing and metalics, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Karl

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 12:13 PM
is it possible to spray paint with acrylics (for better clean up, with all those color changes...),

but coat the final thing with enamel. (for durability). Since you only need to coat it once with a uniform color the cleanup is worth it.

Is it okay to do that?
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Southern California, USA
Posted by ABARNE on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 2:10 PM
You can spray enamels over cured acrylic and vice-versa, but enamel over acrylic probably wouldn't help the overall durability. The problems with acrylic being more durable than enamel are due to the fact that it does not make as strong of a bond with the plastic as does enamel, hence it is more easily scraped off. If you painted first with acrylic and then with enamel, the weak link of the plastic-acrylic bond would still be there, so I doubt that you would see any significant improvement in durability.

On the other hand, if you prime first with an enamel primer that bonds well to the plastic, while simultaneously provides a microscopic "tooth" for the acrylic to grip, then you can definitely expect better durability.

Oddly enough, after having started to dabble with acrylics, mostly for vinyl tank treads, I find the part that I dislike the most is the really rapid drying time which makes brush painting problematic. Last time I was at Michael's, they were out of the Liquitex drying retarder that has been mention on this forum a few times, so I haven't had a chance to try it.
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: SETX. USA
Posted by tho9900 on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 7:54 PM
Andy - I've seen it in the acrylics section under another name, they call it a paint extender or something like that.. definitely had extender in it... if you read it it says it lengthens drying time to keep it from clogging on your brush. (hand brushing) haven't tried it yet as I am using mostly Vallejo acrylics now whose thinner comes with a retarder in it...

Using a primer most definitely helps Hou_ge, I find it binds as well as enamel in most cases... at least to the point where there is NO pull up with masking etc... (I use a lacquer or enamel primer)
---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!
  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Nowhere. (Long Island)
Posted by Tankmaster7 on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 8:51 PM
OK guys let's not dredge this up again. Check out when the post was made.
-Tanky Welcome to the United States of America, a subsidiary of Exxon Mobil Corporation, in partnership with Halliburton. Security for your constitutional rights provided by Blackwater International.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Southern California, USA
Posted by ABARNE on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 9:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Tankmaster7

OK guys let's not dredge this up again. Check out when the post was made.


With respect, I I did read when the post was originally made, however hou_ge2000 asked a specific question, and I answered it. If you have no interest in seeing any further dialog beyond a certain timeframe, you are not required to read further. I wonder if we could bug someone at FSM to display the date of thread origination under the name of the thread originator?

Andy
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: 29° 58' N 95° 21' W
Posted by seasick on Thursday, July 7, 2005 2:26 PM
To tell the truth, I switched to acrylic a few years back and I learned their ins and outs and have become quite good at using them. Gunze-Sanyo acrylic has become redily avalible to me in recent times and I have found that with an enamil primer you can paint just as good as oils. Testors and Poly-scale acrylics both are much better than in the past.

The real trick is to have clean surfaces to paint on. Take a clean rag put a little denatured alcohol on it and wipe off any mold release chemical or any other oily substance off the plastic or resin. Wear gloves and have good ventilation. There should be only a little denatured alcohol in the rag (you should only be able to squeze a very little DA from the rag. Rubbing alchol from the supermarket does not work as well) Always wear gloves. Be careful with solvents and limit exposier of polystyrene to solvents to as little as possible.

Chasing the ultimate build.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 7, 2005 2:43 PM
I run a PC forum and often feel the same way about old threads, but listen!
As a modeller returning after many years, the only paint available when I was doing it was ennamell, now, if I don't know the question, I can't go searching for an answer can I? When I click on unread posts, and it suddenly presents me with this "long running" argumant, it alerts me to the fact that there are other options!
The point of the forum is not I believe to satisfy half a dozen well versed and experianced modellers, but also to introduce "newcommers" to the art. I for one never knew about acrylics, and would likely not have known had it not been for the resurection of this thread, so go on, be a little patient, and let the rest of us catch up to your level pls ;)
  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Nowhere. (Long Island)
Posted by Tankmaster7 on Thursday, July 7, 2005 3:47 PM
Well lesse, seing as we're on the topic I'm gonna throw in my My 2 cents [2c] Smile [:)]. OK, personally I only paint with acrylics when I have to. I like enamels far far better. I feel they present fewer problems while spraying, go on smoother, and are more durable. That being said some like acrylics because of their easier clean up (personally with my badger airbrush i actually feel that enamels are easier to clean out of it) and the acrylics apparently adhere well when a primer coat is laid down. Out of the acrylics, I'd say Tamiya and Gunze are my favories, I thoroughly dislike Model Master Acryl, and only use them because of their great variety of colors. So all in all, as has been said, it comesdown to personal preference.
-Tanky Welcome to the United States of America, a subsidiary of Exxon Mobil Corporation, in partnership with Halliburton. Security for your constitutional rights provided by Blackwater International.
JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.