Tamiya paints and the brush 'o' doom

you can use mr retarder from gunze. normally 20% is enough (it takes longer to dry). the more of it you add the longer time it need to dry , but paint is casting together perfectly

OK!!! Tried it and liked it Bocelli. The stuff actually worked well, although like you said, 3 coats. That's fine I'm used to multiple coats for a project, just not the paint lifting.

Greg, gonna give your laquer thinner base coat a try. Never would have thought to use it in that manner. When you say 2:1 is it paint to thinner or thinner to paint?

QUOTE: I shall wait for your published results then try them myself.

Try a 4:1 Paint/Tamiya thinner. That seems to be the ticket. You'll have to train yourself to get the right amount on the brush for a given area and then just move it arround like IceDragon/Brian said and leave it. There is enough shrinkage that a slight overfill of lines, inner edges, and detials will dry themselves out. Takes 2 to 4 coats for an acceptable finish depending of wether you are doing light on dark, dark on light, light on light, or dark on dark, and 24 hours between identical coats is a must (though it would be ok after an hour to work next to what you just painted).

I'm still going to airbrush the Tamiya for the base coat but handbrushing small stuff is now doable for me to the point I'm going to give away the last of my enamels and stock up on Tamiya, including a big 250ml thinner!

Now the question becomes: Is it ok to store paint which has been mixed 4:1, or will some sort of strange thing happen? Will the retarder loose its effect...?

Another modeler was having similar problems in another post topic. This is the response I offered with regard to the methods I use with Tamiya acrylic with great results:

"I thought I was by myself when it comes to my discontent with MM Acryl, seems I am not alone gobears01. I have the same dificulties with it, specifically, I can't get it to spray consistant fine lines for more than 5 seconds when airbrushing my modern jet camo schemes! ARRRRGHH!!!!. Tried all the popular alternate and house-brand thinner for MM Acryl with no relief. My solution, I donated all the Acryl and stocked up with Tamiya. Boy what a difference! It thins beautifully with a 50/50 alcohol/ water mix and it cleans up completely with good ol' Windex. Fine lines are a breeze, consistant and predicable spraying characteristics with very minimal "tip-dry", if at all. For brush painting, I mix in a drop of alcohol/ water into the paint color. A small amount of dish soap added retards the rapid drying of the paint. To solve the dilema of weather to use a primer before painting with acrylic, I thin the first color coat with Laquer thinner. Yes, you read this right, laquer thinner! Laquer thinner can thin Tamiya acrylics beautifully- sprays like silk, and bites the underlying styrene like enamels, providing a very durable film. This is great becuase I can now use masking tapes over it with no fear of pulling up the paint layer underneath. For the rest of the colors, I simply thin the paint and airbrush normally using the alcohol/ water thinner. For over 20 years, I was a die-hard enamel user. Nowadays, Tamiya has help me produce the most realistic 1/72nd scale replicas in my modeling career, with an acrylic paint! Try the methods I've described above and good luck. Happy modeling!"

PS: My total (almost) acrylic finishing supplies:

1. Paints: Tamiya (all colors)
2. Paint references: Flyttblocksv Urban Fredrickson's color matching reference
3. Thinner: 50% alcohol + 50% Distilled water + dish soap(retarder)
4. Airbrush & Tool Cleaner: Windex
5. Special Thinner: Laquer thinner (for thinning Tamiya acrylic for super strong adhesion) primer color coat only. (2:1 mix)
6. Clear coats
(a) Gloss: Future floor finish
(b) Flat: Delta Ceramcoat, Matt interior varnish (waterbased, low odor, non-toxic)
(c) Satin: Delta Ceramcoat, satin interior varnish (waterbased, low odor, non-toxic)
7. Washes: Tamiya heavily thinned with water with dishsoap added (Sudge-wash)
8. Airbrush: Iwata Revolution HP-CR (general spraying), Iwata HP-C (detailing and camo outlining)

Here is the original thread:
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=47273

Hopefully my luck with Tamiya, it will catch on. Good luck!

Tamiya thinner is VERY expensive in the 30ml bottle... in the big 750ml bottle it lasts forever (over many many models) and it's about the same price as the 30ml bottle. ($4.50 for the small, like $6.50 for the large) I've had the same bottle for a long time now... at least 6 months and 10 painted fuselages (some never finished but the main painting done)

Copy...then like any good slug worth his measure, I shall wait for your published results then try them myself.

QUOTE: Bocelli, when you say slightly thinned, what kind of ratio are you talking about 2:1, 3:1?

Well like I said I'm not sure because it was just a trial and I was using so very little, litterally a couple drops of thinner and a few drops of paint. At a guess maybe it was 4:1 paint/thinner. Didnt seem as thin as an airbrush mix (which last time I did one was 2:1 - 3:1 since I tend to follow manufacturer's instructions to the letter). Now that I'm on to something I'm going to start getting scientific (measure my amounts), and find a "magic ratio".

I am convinced now, the paint IS good. Its just a matter of getting this right...

Max,

Someone had said earlier in the string that Tamiya thinner has a retarder in it. I dont think its cheap, for thinner, but that's just me. I use a retarder from liquitex that can be found in art stores like Michaels. The bottle is huge and I want to say it cost about $5.00. I havent even put a dent in the amount yet. Whether it works with Tamiya, havent tried it, so I couldnt say. It does work with liquitex brand paint though.
Bocelli, when you say slightly thinned, what kind of ratio are you talking about 2:1, 3:1?

Update: Success....somewhat.

I just got done trying a slightly thinned mix of XF-63 and genuine Tamiya thinner/retarder. While I STILL did not get what I would consider an acceptable result, the difference in the way it went on is enough to encourage me to pursue it further. While I did not get the even, smooth finish of an enamel, it acted more enamel-like in terms of being able to go back and forth over a spot more than once, even pick up excess in an area I had moved on from with out destroying what was adjacent. I dont know what ratio I had since I experimented with a very small amount...a couple drops in a bottle cap mixed with a few plops of paint (to use the technical term). This may just be a matter of finding a magic ratio and retraining my hand....

QUOTE: Where can I get this retarder you speak of? Is it cheap?

Others may have generic suggestions for you but I beleive in sticking with a product line. In the case of Tamiya, as we've learned in this thread, their acrylic thinner X-20A is also a retarder....a fact which explains why no one seems to have problems airbrushing the stuff, having been thinned with the thinner in question.

Where can I get this retarder you speak of? Is it cheap?

Hi frens

i tot i was alone in this endeavor of the infamous tamiya paint.
Frankly wolf i encounter your probelm every damn time i use the paint

but i found out that the thinner n paint ratio should be exact .

one more thing i encounter, different batch of tamiya paint stroke differently with their thinner. i mean paint like olive green with two different batch tend to have color variation too..

As for airbrush they dries faster in the air than getting to the model , until i ends up with droplets srinter all over ( maybe im lousy at using AB) . worse still if the paint is a mixed paint like grey with light grey or yellow with white . it tend to leaves some sort of whitish color over time after ABed ( this in the end are settle with a vanish coat)

i try ice dragon method b4 , but somehow they have air bubbles coming and dries with holes in it shit!

Now im trying Tho9900 style by gettting small amount of paint out from jar and and onto the pallete, but the downside is to be careful of the ratio again as i need to keep on mixing and testing the solution before applying the paints

arrrgghhhh wat a day , i cant get other type of paint either as there is none here , so im stuck with this this this PAINT aaargh forever

yeah need to let go some steam sorry guys argggh

sorry im really sad sad here

QUOTE: I believe Tamiya recommends a 3:2 mixture of paint to thinner.

Isnt that pretty much the ratio for airbrushing?

Ok....did second coat and while the color is now deeper, brush stokes are still very prominent. I tried painting a surface which was previously airbrushed (coincidentally with the exact same Tamiya paint) and while better than the bare plastic parts I painted, there is still no way it could be described as uniform, and ultimatly still not acceptable.

Next will be to try thining it a little, as well as IceDragon's suggestion to overdo it and then quickly spread it.

For me this is worth trying to work out because its just so.....vexing. There's got to be a way. Otherwise, how could the stuff sell so well for so long (without a big "for airbrush use only" warning on the jar )

Ok.....handbrushing with Tamiya.........here's your solution!

1. Paint it thick....no thinner! Just glop it on....then gently brush it around quick before it dries......because once it starts to dry.....if u even touch it..........boom! flakes R us!

gl happy painting!

-Brian

I believe Tamiya recommends a 3:2 mixture of paint to thinner. Honestly wha I do is just add a couple of drops of thinner till it is flowing easy like milk I guess.. then paint for a 15 to 20 min and add another drop or so...

One of the biggest things I noticed is if I take X amount of paint out of the jar and put it in an artists pallette, add the thinner then paint it works better.

I have noticed something that happens while using the Tamiya thinner. I used at a 1:1 mixing ratio which is pretty much the ratio that I use with acrylics for all base coating, and the stuff became really thin, almost transluscent. So much so that the pigment tended to gather in recesses while flat or large spaces looked as if they would need at least three coats for proper coverage. I let it dry for aproximately an hour, so I did not have any problems with lifting. While encouraging, for me this still wont work because the advantage of acrylics is supposed to be the quick cure, and waiting three hours to complete a task just isnt what I want to do. When I increased the mix to 2 parts paint one part thinner, after an hour I was still having problems with lifting. Ho Hum. I am ready to throw in the towel and relegate Tamiya to airbrush duties alone. I just cant figure it out and life is too short to keep messing with it

Figuring that with all the "pros" using it, Tamiya's paint cant be bad, so maybe I just need to learn how to use them.

So I broke out some XF-63 last night and painted some spare parts I have. It went pretty much as I remembered it: I would do one stroke, come back over it or even just next to it, and end up cutting into/removing the first. I continued on trying very hard to make one good pass and found it a challenge: either I would get too much paint and fill in details on the part and have to come back over, ruining the pass, OR not enough paint and have to come back over and risk just picking it all up. I found edges to be especially tricky: With enamels I would just bring the brush accross to either lay down more or pickup any excess but doing that here (again) cut into the paint allready on the adjacent surfaces.

The results after an hour of dry time: Questionable. Its not at all uniform although the excess at edges which I had left seemed to go away on their own. Looks as though 3 coats would be required to get a uniform finish and I question how thick it will be by then and if detail will be sacrificed.

Tonight, after 24 hours, I'm going to do a second coat. I'm also going to try priming some peices with a spray can primer, and see how that changes the way paint goes on. Someone mentioned that it doesnt go well onto bare plastic and I think that might be part of the problem, as if it can cling to it.

Someone else mentioned that Tamiya's thinner is also a retarder? What ratio of paint/thinner should I try?

Will post back as the experiment continues....

QUOTE: Are you sure you are giving the paint enough time to dry?

Could be. Other acrylics I can pretty much turn too on the second coat right away. Maybe Tamiya just has a longer curing time. Time to go experiment.

QUOTE: I think that is ultimatly the problem I had: It seemed as if I had ONE shot at it, one brush stroke. If I came back over, even withing a couple seconds, I just "tore" through the first stroke, and ruined it.

Acrylic retarders help a LOT in that respect because they slow down the drying time dramatically. I don't hand brush much at all, and what I do is primarily small detail areas or washes, but I've gotten to the point that I just use retarder for thinner. A couple of drops of retarder, 10 or so drops of paint, and it takes a lot longer to dry and eliminates a lot of the problems.

I also prefer Citadel paints for what little hand brushing I do. They don't have a lot of the hand brushing problems associated with Tamiya paints and, in my opinion, brush a lot better.

QUOTE: re-activated the paint I had brushed on a moment before.

I think that is ultimatly the problem I had: It seemed as if I had ONE shot at it, one brush stroke. If I came back over, even withing a couple seconds, I just "tore" through the first stroke, and ruined it. Let it dry, sand it, try again (and again and again).

Well, well, I just had a "Tamiya paint problem"! I took too long to finish painting an area and re-activated the paint I had brushed on a moment before. I was interrupted from my hobby by a telemarketer and it took me a bit longer than I thought to teach the young gentleman a lesson in telephone manners.

Are you sure you are giving the paint enough time to dry? Tamiya acrylics look like they dry quickly, but since acrylics dry from the surface down, you must insure that you give the paint time to fully dry.

Heh...no worries. To tell the truth, acrylics are my paint of choice for figures and airbrushing. I cannot figure for the life of me why Tamiya gives me such a rub with a straight brush.. I use other types of enamels from liquitex for figure painting and never have a problem. Polyscale seems to work fine with a brush and airbrush. I havent tried modelmaster yet. As far as airbrushing, Tamiya works great, I just cant figure out why the pigments wont stay while brushing. Maybe I'll use them as a glaze?

Wolf, I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I use Tamiya for a base color for my Artist Oils to go over on top of. Try one more brand before giving up, try the Poly Scale paints (Floquil Acrylics) I like to use them as well to brush paint for my figures as they have a heavier pigment. I just did a comparison of both, and the Poly Scale stroked out smoother.
If still not happy with the acrylics, then I would go with Enamels, the best Enamel paint for brush paint ing is by far Humbrol in the tinlets. Yes, I know they are hard to get and the little cans suck the big one. But hands down the best to brush.

Sorry my earlier suggestion did not work out for you.

Wolf - I've been able to brush some Tamiya colors fine, others just don't work for me. For acrylics I use Model Master or my favorite, Vallejo Acrylics. Both work wonderful! (I prefer the Color of Eagles by Vallejo by far though)

QUOTE: I wonder what I'm doing wrong since I have had zero problems with Tamiya acrylic paints being hand brushed?

HAH! I like your line of reasoning. It is not I that is gakked up because I cant get the stuff to stick. In fact, it is you, because you can. DOUBLE HAH!

Hobby1268, I habitually prime everything. So, that cant be it. Must be the devil has decanted a little bit of his essence into each and every one of my bottles. Not in sufficient quantity for their little tops to start spinning while spewing forth great gouts of paint mind you, but enough to be irritating.

I wonder what I'm doing wrong since I have had zero problems with Tamiya acrylic paints being hand brushed? The only time I've had trouble is when I forget to prep the paint surface by washing off the piece first.

I bought some Model Master acrylic Zinc Chromate the other day, as I'm tired of mixing my own with Tamiya. Now there is a paint that is difficult to hand brush! Very thin paint, consistant colour sure which was my goal, but thin.

I'll just echo the sentiment that the stuff just cannot be hand brushed....at all.

A while back a friend gave me a Gundam in the middle of winter. I wanted to give acrylics a try since the varsol-less cleanup appealed to me. Tamiya is what the local store carries.

Well! I could not get a decent result no matter how hard I tried or how patient I was. It just would not go on evenly. The result was unaceptable on even on a small, small area like an elbow. I ended up airbrushing the entire thing, spending I dont know how much on canned air (I dont have a compressor) so that I wouldnt feel I wasted the paint.

I've still got about 8 nearly full jars if anyone wants them. :)

hobby, that may just work... I'll have to give it a try on my next kit!

I have had good luck with paint brushing Tamiya paints as a base coat on figures before using my artist oil, but you need to spray a primer coat on so the paint will grab. I would not recommend brushing any acrylic strait onto plastic as it will not stick as well. Try using the Tamiya, testors or Automotive primer first on what ever you are painting let it set for a couple of hours, best overnight, then try brushing on the Tamiya paint. You will see the difference right away.