SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

what is denatured alcohol for?

8950 views
28 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
Posted by moose1 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:26 AM
Well, I haven't been drinking denatured alcohol, but that bug comment was enough to make me sick! You guys will have to hold on, I left my doctoral degree in my other pants, I think my wife just washed it! Argh!

I just had to chime in on this facinating discussion...It is my first post though...


Bruce
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:55 AM
Jt-Shella is great here's some info (it's bug parts):
Shellac is an animal product. The basic material comes from the Coccus lacca, a scale insect that feeds on certain trees in India and southern Asia. After feeding, the insect produces through its pores a gummy substance which hardens into a protective covering called lac. This lac is collected and then it is crushed, washed and dried. After further treatment, it is skillfully drawn into thin sheets of finished shellac. Many products such as phonograph records, sealing wax, fireworks, and electrical insulators and instruments have shellac in their composition. When mixed with alcohol, shellac forms ordinary varnish.
Soon after the scale insect is hatched, it leaves its birthplace and begins to wander about, looking for a likely place to settle down. It finds this place at last upon a stem or a leaf or the outside of a fruit. It inserts its sharp little beak in the tissue and then settles down for a lifetime of sucking at this particular spot.

It is soon covered by a substance that it secretes or gives forth from its body - a substance that in certain species looks like wax, in others like cotton, in still others like powder. The growing insect sheds one skin after another; these skins form a rounded little scale, held in place by the secreted substance.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, September 12, 2005 11:20 PM
I can't add anything to the above learned technical discussion about the chemical makeup of denatured alcohol. My understanding has always been that it's extremely dangerous stuff to drink, and I've never felt any inclination to do so. Any time I've had a can of it in the house I've kept it locked up.

It does have an excellent use in traditional ship model building: it's the standard thinner/solvent for shellac. Shellac has been around for centuries, and many modelers and woodworkers think of it as obsolete. The truth is that it's an excellent, versatile wood finish. It is, in fact, undergoing something of a rebirth in popularity among woodworkers at the moment. Shellac is reasonably easy to apply, doesn't cost much, and can produce a beautiful finish. (It's also relatively non-toxic, once the denatured alcohol has evaporated. As I understand it, shellac isn't approved for eating utensils but is approved for furniture that's going to be used around kids.) Purist woodworkers in fact make their own shellac, buying it in the form of flakes that are diluted to the desired working consistency with denatured alcohol.

My main interest is relatively small-scale sailing ship models. Whenever I make a deck (usually out of either basswood or holly planks) I give it a light coat of stain, then a coat of shellac - diluted almost beyond recognition with denatured alcohol. The resulting finish is almost invisible, but does a great job of settling any wood grain and (most important) protecting the deck planks from any paint or other nastiness that gets spilled on them.

For such things as display cases and baseboards, shellac makes a fine, simply-applied finish. It's currently available in several tints (white, amber, and "button," or brown), all of which give slightly different casts to the wood. It can be applied with a natural, synthetic, or foam brush, and dries within a few minutes. Several coats of shellac can be applied in one work day, and will produce a finish that's hard to beat in terms of appearance. (It's not as durable as modern polyurethane or clear lacquer, but in modeling applications that may not be particularly relevant.)

Another important feature of shellac is that it's reversible. Regardless of how long it's been on the wood, shellac can, almost without exception, be removed by rubbing the surface with a rag that's been soaked in denatured alcohol. This attribute is especially important in restoration work. Shellac was a common furniture (and ship model) finish in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Many such pieces have "alligatored" - the shellac has gotten dirty and scaley. I've seen examples of old shellac that's turned a disgusting, gritty black. A quick wipe with denatured alcohol makes it look almost like new. And because shellac is reversible, professional conservators generally approve of it as a finish for old, valuable artifacts.

A few years ago I got hired to restore some ship models for the U.S. Coast Guard Museum. One of them was a nice old model of a nineteenth-century revenue cutter. The bottom of its hull was painted copper, with some sort of clear, gloss finish on it. The paint was in fine shape, but the clear gloss had "crackled" - there were hairline cracks all over it. I puzzled for some time over what to do about this; the finish certainly looked like clear lacquer or varnish. Without thinking it would have any effect, but intending to rule out the least radical approach first, I wiped the hull gently with a rag soaked in denatured alcohol. I was pretty surprised when the "crackling" instantly disappeared, leaving a beautiful, shiny copper hull.

Yes, denatured alcohol has its uses. Just don't drink it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 4:22 PM
Yeah-I've been recovering for 20 years now (I was a late-onset drinker).
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 4:00 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by trowlfazz

Wow! Getting drunk is sooo complex. And never argue metabolizing with a bio-engineer!!


Now who's being a smart....Wink [;)]
Metabanomics is a subject that is still open to some interpritation, a lot is known, but every time an answer is found, so are two more questions,lol

Getting drunk is easy, it's the recovery thats confusing as hellDead [xx(]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 3:10 PM
Wow! Getting drunk is sooo complex. And never argue metabolizing with a bio-engineer!!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 2:17 PM
Most alcoholic beverages do not have methanol in them. Methanol is transformed in the body into formic acid, which is transformed into formaldehyde, which is also not good for you. In cases of methanol poisoning, ethanol is given as a treatment, but it does not strictly block the adsorption of methanol. What really happens is that ethanol and methanol are undergoing the same basic chemical reaction (change of alchol to aldehyde)... in adding ethanol, you're basically setting up a competing reaction and hoping that more of the ethanol is metabolized than methanol.

Ok, just discovered why thats working, but the metabolic rates need to be monitored or you could very well induce Ethanol poisoning instead,lol
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 12:55 PM
Wow! This is getting deep! CKF-you're right, the site I visited also had this to say: Poisoning with methanol may be accidental or intentional. There have been epidemics of methanol toxicity in cases where illicit whiskey has been sold to large populations or when the less expensive methanol was substituted for ethanol in drinks.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 12:49 PM
Being both organic solvents, would adding ethanol to MeoH be risky as a "fix" to the Methanol poisioning? Sounds slightly medevil.
15mL sounds about right, we used to "homebrew" out in Saudi, the way it was tested was to burn some in a spoon, see what colour it was and what if anything was left after the flame went out. Still met a few people who could not see properly the next day(hence the term "blind drunk" btw)
40L wine will cause you to drone long before you go blind,lol

"In order to reduce the need for strict control and heavy taxation on industrially produced ethanol, the alcohol is denatured. Denaturing is a process of adding other compounds to the ethanol to render it unfit for consumption. Denaturants are selected to give the ethanol a disagreeable taste or odor and in some cases a distinctive color. In some cases the substances added are toxic and produce gastric disturbances upon ingestion and/or other unpleasant symptoms. A large number of different "denaturants" are utilized dependent upon the use for which the ethanol is intended. These denaturants include methyl isobutyl ketone, pyronate, kerosene, acetone, turpentine, amyl alcohol, methyl alcohol, and various butyl alcohols. In some cases more than one denaturant is utilized."

Hence my comment about the bad tempered hangoverBig Smile [:D]
They tend to use similar compounds that are added to most household chemical, the idea is to stop children drinking bleach and other nasty stuff as found in your average kitchen.
I believe "no bite" has the same additives, the nail stuff that stops you bitting nails as it makes them taste gross.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Halfway back to where I started
Posted by ckfredrickson on Monday, September 12, 2005 12:33 PM
I think trowlfazz is right about methanol being a very small component... many methanol poisoning cases are the result of people making their own rotgut moonshine, and then not distilling it properly and either consuming it themselves or giving it to their buddies.

But to put it all in perspective,

if you assume density of methanol ~0.8, that leaves you with ~0.375 mL of methanol per liter of wine (1 mL = 1 cubic centimeter). To reach Gip's ballpark value of 15 mL of methanol to go blind, it'll take you 40 L of wine (sounds like a morbid Total commercial).
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 12:06 PM
Gip-I believe the methanol has always been a very small component of booze-however you really seem to know your alcohol and I may be quoting out-dated information. One thing I do know is that cooking wine-sold in grocery stores, has been made undrinkable because a large amount of salt was added to it-making it useless for cooking as well (just an old cook's tip). :-)

Edit-Ditto to Mr. CKF as well-some sharp chemists on board here.

Edit: Methanol is a natural fermentation product and its concentration may be up to 300 mg/L in wine, and even higher in other spirits. Aha! Hair of the dog theory may be true! Boy I've gone way off-topic.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Halfway back to where I started
Posted by ckfredrickson on Monday, September 12, 2005 12:01 PM
Couple of chemical clarifications:

* Benzine is a mixture of alkanes (linear molecules). Do not confuse this with benzene, a cyclic molecule which can cause cancer.

* Most alcoholic beverages do not have methanol in them. Methanol is transformed in the body into formic acid, which is transformed into formaldehyde, which is also not good for you. In cases of methanol poisoning, ethanol is given as a treatment, but it does not strictly block the adsorption of methanol. What really happens is that ethanol and methanol are undergoing the same basic chemical reaction (change of alchol to aldehyde)... in adding ethanol, you're basically setting up a competing reaction and hoping that more of the ethanol is metabolized than methanol.

* The contents of denatured alchohol vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. In making my earlier post to this topic, I checked the materials safety data sheet (MSDS) from 2 manufacturers... although acetone and methanol were mentioned in the earlier post, other chemicals that I was less familiar with were also listed, and I chose not to mention them. If you really want to know what's in your chemicals, you need to look at the MSDS from your manufacturer.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Monday, September 12, 2005 11:42 AM
Here's a little info on denatured alcohol, for anyone interested. This is from an earlier posting of mine:

In order to reduce the need for strict control and heavy taxation on industrially produced ethanol, the alcohol is denatured. Denaturing is a process of adding other compounds to the ethanol to render it unfit for consumption. Denaturants are selected to give the ethanol a disagreeable taste or odor and in some cases a distinctive color. In some cases the substances added are toxic and produce gastric disturbances upon ingestion and/or other unpleasant symptoms. A large number of different "denaturants" are utilized dependent upon the use for which the ethanol is intended. These denaturants include methyl isobutyl ketone, pyronate, kerosene, acetone, turpentine, amyl alcohol, methyl alcohol, and various butyl alcohols. In some cases more than one denaturant is utilized.

Trowlfazz,
I've honestly never heard of methanol being a constituent in alcoholic beverages, and the cause of alcohol sickness. I always believed that increased concentrations of ethanol overrode the liver's ability to detoxify the substance via the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, and the resulting effect was alcohol intoxication or poisoning. I also don't understand why ethanol would prevent the absorption of methanol. Methanol is a much smaller molecule than ethanol, and would cross the blood-brain barrier much more efficiently. Maybe that's why it only takes about 15ml or so of methanol to cause blindness....

Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 7:59 AM
Matador-it is benzine in English and we used it in the graphic arts field to remove excess wax-which was used as an adhesive. Most alcoholic beverages have ethanol and methanol in them. Ethanol gets you high and methanol gets you sick. That's why more booze eases a hangover because ethanol will block the body's ability to absorb methanol. Funny-alcohol cools jets but fuels arguements. :-)
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 7:41 AM
it is possible to drink denatured alcohol! but beware!!! there are two types of it. in one is benzen (bensen in english? - it smells like gas (fuel)) and another one has methanol in it, so it is positivelly harmfull to you. you are gonna blind after drinking (even though it smell more "alcoholic" then the other "gas-fuelic" one")
drink small amount of sirup before drinking it - it will help to protect pharynx.
it is also possible to drink even 96% alcohol and "other stuff". very popular in our country 15 year ago by homeless was "okena" (windows cleaner with alcohol) and "alpa" alcoholic massage emulsion.
i know theese thing from people studying on medicine colleges, mechanics (also army, because denatured alcohol was used heavilly in jet fighters service and maintenance).
probably the best was mig-25 foxbat (not used in our country, but in duty in far east, parts of russia near japan, which has clean alcohol (not denaturized) as cooling fluid in large amounts. big tanks were everywhere and it was drinking by everyone. (armies in socialistic countries was completely drunk :>)
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Bgrigg

QUOTE: Originally posted by trowlfazz

Hey! I'm a Aqua Velva man! Boy, I can spoil any thread.


We all have our own skills... Tongue [:P]


Christ, thats rich from youWink [;)]Tongue [:P](take a joke Bgrigg) lol
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:15 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by trowlfazz

Hey! I'm a Aqua Velva man! Boy, I can spoil any thread.


We all have our own skills... Tongue [:P]

So long folks!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:28 PM
Hey! I'm a Aqua Velva man! Boy, I can spoil any thread.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:13 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by trowlfazz

Well, I find it hard to swallow-even with a mixer.


Cut it with a good quality aftershave, it's much easier on the pallette
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:36 PM
Well, I find it hard to swallow-even with a mixer.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ckfredrickson

Denatured alcohol is ethanol (active incredient in booze) with a bit of other chemicals such as acetone or methanol thrown in... not enough to harm the plastic, but enough to harm you if you decide to use it to get drunk (so don't drink it).

The others have done a pretty good job of explaining its modeling uses.


Thats why it is called Denatured, it gives you a bad tempered hangoverBig Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Halfway back to where I started
Posted by ckfredrickson on Saturday, September 10, 2005 12:10 PM
Denatured alcohol is ethanol (active incredient in booze) with a bit of other chemicals such as acetone or methanol thrown in... not enough to harm the plastic, but enough to harm you if you decide to use it to get drunk (so don't drink it).

The others have done a pretty good job of explaining its modeling uses.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:53 AM
Denaturated alcohol is for removing grease and oils from machinery. It works the same for removing grease and oils from plastic, resin, and photo etch parts.

Acetone is way worse that any type of alcohol. Alcohol is non caustic unlike acetone. Alcohol is also more dangerous even though the alcohol label says more than the acetone label. Since acetone is a paint thinner, the companies want you to assume it's very dangerous. Denaturated alcohol has tons of warnings on it, but because its not really associated with paint.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:13 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by matador88

it is great for thinnig acrylic paints, especially tamiya acrylics (no diff from origo thinner), you can clean everything from acrylic (sometimes also other) and its cheap.
and acetone is more agressive than alcohol (any form)


Really? I always though it was worse than acetone-which is nasty stuff too. Well, I learned something-now I can go back to bed.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:16 AM
it is great for thinnig acrylic paints, especially tamiya acrylics (no diff from origo thinner), you can clean everything from acrylic (sometimes also other) and its cheap.
and acetone is more agressive than alcohol (any form)
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: USA
Posted by MusicCity on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 7:21 PM
Denatured alcohol works great for thinning Squadron putty.
Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:59 PM
Hmm, I bought the denatured alcohol at a hardware store b/c it was cheap AND I thought it was the same as rubbing alcohol... I just Googled the two and they are obviously not the same. Does anyone use either type for anything related to modeling?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:24 PM
I would avoid any contact with denatured alcohol-it's worse than acetone. I will use acetone to deep clean a nasty airbrush but never denatured alcohol.
  • Member since
    November 2005
what is denatured alcohol for?
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 4:01 PM
Hello all,

I've recently gotten back into model building from when I was a kid 20 years ago... I'm amazed how much has changed!!

I've got the "laquer thinner / mineral spirits" thing down, but I also hear alot about denatured alcohol. What is that for? (RE: model paints). Acrylics? Enamels? Thinning, cleaning regular and/or air brushes? Removing dry or partially dry paint from a model to expose "metal" underneath (like AlClad II or Bare Metal Foil)?

Any answers would be appreciated!!!
JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.