To switch or not to switch...the big acrylic question?

plasticmod992

Member since
January 2003
From: The Hoosier State

To switch or not to switch...the big acrylic question?

Posted by plasticmod992 on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:32 AM

In the past year I gave Tamiya acrylics a fair try in my modeling. I have had relatively good success, what with discovering tricks with thinners, additives and cleaners, but I still am not tottaly satisfied with their results. I have high demands with regard to paint, because, after-all, modelers know, it's the paint job you appreciate when the model is complete, that compliments all the craftsmanship one puts into any model, from basic construction to after-market assessories and inhancements. I have had so many issues using acrylics that have translated into less-than satisfactory finishes on my models. Banged Head [banghead]

If it isn't relearning the characterists of acrylic paint, its thinners- if not thinners, then it's retarders, if not that, its adhesion problems, in addition, colors are in somecase not available or require custom mixing formulas...getting fed up quick, dispite my ability to use them with good success. "To switch back to enamels or to ride the wave of acrylics", is the question I am pondering these days, as may other modelers. I was raised up with enamels and I have mastered them, from airbrushing intricate camo to brush-painting the faces on my 1/72nd scale jet pilots! I can't come close to claiming such a feat with acrylics and I've been modeling since I was 6!

I think I'm going to switch back guys, although not for sure just yet. Any thoughts, opinions, or suggestions that may sway an experienced modeler to stick with acrylics? I've tried them all, so this may be a tough one! Confused [%-)]

Greg Williams Owner/ Manager Modern Hobbies LLC Indianapolis, IN. IPMS #44084

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darson

Member since
February 2003
From: Melbourne, Australia

Posted by darson on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:11 AM

Greg I use MM enamels myself ( I have a vast range already) and have found them to be just great so you're sort of reaching to the converted. Having said that though, several good buddies on the this forum get excellent results with Vallejo Acrylics which they say are first rate (they are not commercially available to me). Tamiya paints are good but their color range is just waaaaay to restrictive to make them a viable choice for me.

Oh yeah, never a truer word has been spoken when you say "it's the paint job you appreciate when the model is complete, that compliments all the craftsmanship one puts into any model, from basic construction to after-market accessories and enhancements". I could not agree with you more.

Cheers
Darren

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:11 AM

Greg,

If you are more comfortable with enamels then I would stick with them and forget about acrylics.
The only advantage of acrylics is their lower toxicity levels, but if you spray in a well ventilated room and wear a mask it doesn't really matter if you use enamels or acrylics.
What they need to do is come out with a full line of colors for modeling with urethane paints and then there would be some happy modelers out there.
There are no other paints that spray as nice but I don't know if they will ever market it for modeling or not. The car modelers use it but we would have to mix our own colors to come up with the colors we use for aircraft.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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plasticmod992

Member since
January 2003
From: The Hoosier State

Posted by plasticmod992 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:46 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by darson

Greg I use MM enamels myself ( I have a vast range already) and have found them to be just great so you're sort of reaching to the converted. Having said that though, several good buddies on the this forum get excellent results with Vallejo Acrylics which they say are first rate (they are not commercially available to me).

Yeah, I read about these during some reaserch and they sound very attractive, with excellent results reported from numerous modelers, even in the pages of FSM. You said it right, when you mentioned the availability issue. I'm spoiled, having been able to just go down to my local hobby shops and pulling the exact colors needed right from the shelf; I'll have to depend on mail order to keep most other acrylics stocked. Not a problem, nessessarily, but definately inconvienent. Who knows, Vallejo may be worth it. I'll have to order some and experiment a bit.

Greg Williams Owner/ Manager Modern Hobbies LLC Indianapolis, IN. IPMS #44084

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plasticmod992

Member since
January 2003
From: The Hoosier State

Posted by plasticmod992 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:57 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV

What they need to do is come out with a full line of colors for modeling with urethane paints and then there would be some happy modelers out there.
There are no other paints that spray as nice but I don't know if they will ever market it for modeling or not. The car modelers use it but we would have to mix our own colors to come up with the colors we use for aircraft.

Mike

I've heard about urethane paints, I agree with you there..that would be great if there were a line of colors available in Federal Standard colors- comparable in range with, say: Model Master. Anyway, here's to wishfull thinking! At any rate, I think you're right about just sticking with what I know. Enamels have not let me down yet, even when I made a mistake with them. Thanks for the comments. Heaven knows my airbrushes are gonna be happier shooting enamels!

Greg Williams Owner/ Manager Modern Hobbies LLC Indianapolis, IN. IPMS #44084

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:14 PM

I've tried the acrylic route myself. They just don't look as nice as enamels to my eye. The ability of enamels to blend well with oils is also a great charcteristic. I love using Humbrul and especially the Model Master line which I don't think has an equal as far as appearance goes. I worry about the toxicity but I've started wearing a resperator for the larger spraying and especially while cleaning the airbrush. Latex gloves also make life much easier. Then you have the issue of always having to wait a few days for the enamels to completely harden, making projects take much longer. But again, I think the results are more than worth it. Just my $.02
Jim

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RichardI

Member since
February 2004
From: Canada

Posted by RichardI on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:50 PM

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively. IMHO, they look every bit as good as any enamel I've seen. As far as colours go, mixing my own has been a lot of fun. The best thing about acrylics is the clean-up and thinning. Nothing toxic. You can use water (recommend distilled) or isopropyl alcohol, or Tamiya's thinner X20A (the best). And no respirator required. I suggest you add drop or two to each cup of mixed paint of acrylic retarder - it allows acrylic to dry slower (like enamels) and flow into all the spots enamel would (also prevents tip dry).
I don't think there's any real danger in enamels so there is no need to change IMO, but if you are really concerned about toxicity, I think acrylics are great.

Rich Cool [8D]

On the bench: 1/48 Revell PBY Catalina 0A-10A. Next up: Moebius 1/24 Chariot from Lost in Space.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:06 PM

I too have written a couple of post regarding this issue. I was frustrated by my inability to balance the acrylic juggle this past weekend. I have found MM enamels to be the best for me due to my skills with acrylics. The closest I have come to success with acrylics is with PollyScale, but I find the finish to be somewhat fragile. I personally find enamels MUCH more forgiving and I can consistently lay a smooth coat almost every time. Okay, there was that real bad orange peel day with a Hornet, but that's another story.

E

Post Script - I have not sprayed Tamiya acylics ( hand brush only thus far ) but I have a bunch of it in the basement that may be sprayed this weekend.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 4:09 PM

One big think I like about enameals that I forgot to mention is the sandability. They dry much harder and sand much smoother. To each their own of course. I have seen many a beautiful model finished with acrylics to write them off as inadequet.

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kestrel0222

Member since
April 2014

Posted by kestrel0222 on Monday, September 26, 2005 5:44 PM

Greg,

I have tried acrylics but didn't have very good luck with them. I have been using enamels for as long as I can remember. I use a variety of different enamels, mostly Model Master and Humbrol. Between the two of them, I have not found a color that I could not get. For me, there is no question, enamel. You have to like what you use and use what you like.

Hope this helps,

Tom

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MusicCity

Member since
January 2004
From: USA

Posted by MusicCity on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:56 PM

Who says that you have to use one exclusively? I prefer an enamel base for acrylics because I feel that it gives me better adhesion of the acrylic. If I'm doing something like a 3-color camo job I'll sometimes use enamel for the bottom (lighter) color and then use acrylic for the rest. Same thing for cockpits. I use enamel for the base color and then datail them with acrylic.

You don't HAVE to pick only one, the two coexist quite well together. If I had to pick only one though, I'd go with acrylics.

QUOTE: The best thing about acrylics is the clean-up and thinning. Nothing toxic. You can use water (recommend distilled) or isopropyl alcohol, or Tamiya's thinner X20A (the best). And no respirator required.

http://www.craigcentral.com/models/toxicity.asp

Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page

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tho9900

Member since
July 2004
From: SETX. USA

Posted by tho9900 on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:09 PM

I'm one of those diehard Color of Eagles "Aircraft Colors" (made by Vallejo) users mentioned several posts above... they are referred to as the enamel of acrylics... they flow on smooth either by brush or airbrush, dry with a nice smooth surface and adhere VERY well to the surface they are put on.

I found them much more forgiving and easy to use than most other acrylics.. MM Acryl was probably second... Tamiya I did not use long but there seemed to much "fiddling" you had to do to get them on right... and even then sometimes they didn't stay on.

I just order every exterior color I will need for a kit when I buy it online or at the hobby shop here... finally I have gotten to where I have almost the complete line of aircraft colors.. The nice thing I like about them is there is almost 0 waste with them as they come in a squeeze bottle and you can measure exact amounts...

---edit---

oh yeah... I am with Scott on his point also... I use both when one or the other will serve best in a situation... but by far Acrylics get used the most by me...

---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!

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Tankmaster7

Member since
August 2004
From: Nowhere. (Long Island)

Posted by Tankmaster7 on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:39 PM

I found almost the exact opposite of Tom actually. Smile [:)]

I find MM acryl to be tough to use and Tamiya acrylics to go on very nice and smoothyl with a decent margin for error. As for my preference, I'm a hardcore enamel fan. Approve [^]

-Tanky

Welcome to the United States of America, a subsidiary of Exxon Mobil Corporation, in partnership with Halliburton. Security for your constitutional rights provided by Blackwater International.

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RadMax8

Member since
February 2005
From: Cleveland, OH

Posted by RadMax8 on Monday, September 26, 2005 9:18 PM

Easy.... Use both. Both have their strongpoints, so just go with what the situation requires!

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 9:30 PM

Where's a good place to get Vallejo Acrylics?

E

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:29 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by RichardI
The best thing about acrylics is the clean-up and thinning. Nothing toxic. You can use water (recommend distilled) or isopropyl alcohol, or Tamiya's thinner X20A (the best). And no respirator required.

Wrong!
Maybe Gip can give us all another lesson on the toxicity of acrylics and their thinners?
If I get a good whiff of acrylic airbrush cleaners, especially things like SImple Green, I get instant ashtma symptoms.
The only thing that is safe to go into your lungs is air..period! Wink [;)]

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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Bgrigg

Member since
May 2005
From: Left forever

Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:06 PM

And that depends on the air! Big Smile [:D]

So long folks!

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:09 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bgrigg

And that depends on the air!

Very true! Big Smile [:D]

I wouldn't recommend the air in Mexico City for one. Wink [;)]

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:18 AM

Ahh.. the age ol question of acrylic Vs. enamels. i agree with Radmax8. use the paint that calls for the situation. Wink [;)]

my personal favorite is enamels..but acrylics are my favorite when it comes to cleanup! Big Smile [:D]

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plasticmod992

Member since
January 2003
From: The Hoosier State

Posted by plasticmod992 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:54 AM

Thank you all for your opinions, insite and suggestions. I'm completing a T-45A Goshawk at the moment in which I finished intirely with Tamiya. Turning out very nice, however..it was a long road getting there, for the reasons mentioned in my original post. I think I have my answer, or decision if you will. I like what was said about using both types of paint, not having to settle-using only one type for finishing models. I believe I will keep and continue to use the Tamiya in conjunction with my extensive selection of enamel, and I'll have a look at other brands as well. I've never been one to give up very easy, so I'll stick with it and, like RadMax8 suggested, and use acrylics when the situation is applicable or advantagous to do so. I must admit that while finishing my lasted project with the Tamiya, color changes were rapid, cean-up was down-right elementary, and I acutually mixed an excellent color match for the aircraft, not available in the MM line. Who knows, I may learn to live with both and acutually appreciate acrylics more as I go. Thanks again for the input all!

PS: I'll post photos of my 1/72nd scale T-45A Goshawk here and in the Aircraft forum in the next couple of days so you all can have a look-see.

Greg Williams Owner/ Manager Modern Hobbies LLC Indianapolis, IN. IPMS #44084

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MusicCity

Member since
January 2004
From: USA

Posted by MusicCity on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:35 AM

QUOTE: Maybe Gip can give us all another lesson on the toxicity of acrylics and their thinners?

There is a link to Gip's comments on toxicity in my post above. It's on my web site, with his permission, and makes for interesting reading.

Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page

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RichardI

Member since
February 2004
From: Canada

Posted by RichardI on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:58 AM

It's all relative, isn't it? I have read all these posts with interest, but the fact remains that enamels and their thinners are far more toxic than acrylics and their thinners.
I think I'd much rather breath alcohol fumes than lacquer or paint thinner fumes.
I'm not saying alcohol is not toxic, but it's a matter of degree. I suppose lettuce could be toxic if you ate too much Big Smile [:D]

. It wouldn't take much paint thinner to do some real damage.
Bottom line - distilled water isn't toxic at all and alcohol isn't very toxic . Paint thinners?
You be the judge.

Rich Cool [8D]

On the bench: 1/48 Revell PBY Catalina 0A-10A. Next up: Moebius 1/24 Chariot from Lost in Space.

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:05 AM

Thanks for adding that Scott.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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MusicCity

Member since
January 2004
From: USA

Posted by MusicCity on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:05 AM

QUOTE:
Bottom line - distilled water isn't toxic at all and alcohol isn't very toxic . Paint thinners?

True ... but it isn't just the thinners and carriers. Acrylic paint itself, once the carrier evaporates, is a form of plastic. Do you really want a thin coat of plastic covering the insides of your lungs?

As you said, everything is relative. As Mike said the only thing that should be in your lungs is air. I don't use my respirator as much as I should, but I do keep a fan blowing across my bench to blow as many fumes and vapors as I can away from me.

Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page

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nathaniel

Member since
September 2005

Posted by nathaniel on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:27 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by H3nav

Where's a good place to get Vallejo Acrylics?

http://strangecargogames.com/

I've ordered from them and found their service to be pretty good.

http://thewarstore.net/

The War Store (mainly a miniature wargaming shop) has an astounding reputation amoung miniature enthusiasts.

Nathaniel

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:31 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by RichardI

It's all relative, isn't it? I have read all these posts with interest, but the fact remains that enamels and their thinners are far more toxic than acrylics and their thinners.

Why not use proper ventilation and then the paint composition is irrelevant?
I don't see guys painting cars for a living complaining about how toxic urethane clears are. Instead they wear protective gear along with a fresh air system mask and get the job done.
If you don't have decent ventilation then I wouldn't recommend you airbrush at all.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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Bgrigg

Member since
May 2005
From: Left forever

Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:45 PM

Speaking of proper air ventilation. I tried out my spraybooth for the first time tonight. It's so airtight when the doors are closed that the fan slows down because of the lack of air movement. With the doors open you can see the vapors being sucked towards the filter. I first tested it with windex and you couldn't smell the ammonia vapors at all. Very nice! I'll probably still get a respirator, but I feel pretty safe using the booth as is with the Tamiya acrylics.

So long folks!

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tho9900

Member since
July 2004
From: SETX. USA

Posted by tho9900 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:06 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by H3nav

Where's a good place to get Vallejo Acrylics?

E

You can order them from www.greatmodels.com, just do a search for "color of eagles" it's all the aircraft colors repackaged and marketed by a company out of Miami... but they are made by Vallejo

---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!

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RichardI

Member since
February 2004
From: Canada

Posted by RichardI on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:45 AM

I have to admit that I was laboring under a misconception. Blush [:I]

I did read all the comments and I am now concerned enough to go buy a respirator....off to Walmart Big Smile [:D]

Rich

On the bench: 1/48 Revell PBY Catalina 0A-10A. Next up: Moebius 1/24 Chariot from Lost in Space.

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knight667

Member since
January 2004
From: Philomath, OR, USA

Posted by knight667 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:42 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by plasticmod992

I have high demands with regard to paint, because, after-all, modelers know, it's the paint job you appreciate when the model is complete, that compliments all the craftsmanship one puts into any model, from basic construction to after-market assessories and inhancements.

Roger that!! I've often scrimped on interior detail in my a/c (which you often don't see anyway) in order to spend more time (and money Big Smile [:D]

) on the exterior paint and finish.

That being said, I've used MM enamels since I started modeling years ago, and came back to them after my 10 year break that ended January 2004. I love them, I'm familiar with them, and I know exactly what they will or won't do. I know how they behave and how they cure and what to expect. They give a good finish and are pretty easy to work with (easier, I think, than acrylics...having attempted acrylics once, long ago).

Just my $.02, but I'd go with enamels if you can.

John "The only easy day was yesterday." - US Navy SEALs "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." - US Marine Corp. "I live each day/Like it's my last/...I never look back" - from "I'm A Rocker" by Judas Priest

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