Opinions on badger from other forums

MusicCity wrote:

It's the hand that holds the airbrush that determines the quality of the paint job.

So true, so true!

I am just getting started in AB'ing again after a 20+ year absence (never did much back then with AB'ing, so I'm basically a newbie).

But I am no stranger to spraying auto's.
Sure they use larger spray guns, but the same old guestions float around many body shops and have for many years - "Which gun is BETTER?". Then again there's the question - "Should I get gravity-feed or siphon-feed?". Many "old pro's" have spent the extra money for their DeVilbiss, Binks, SATA, etc... Me, I started like most with a small limited budget, and bought myself a Craftsman siphon-feed for around $60.00. It looked just like the other guys DeVilbiss but was $100.00 cheaper. After a few years and getting better at painting cars, I tried my co-workers DeVilbiss. I was amazed and shocked, it was a bit heavier in my hand, but I ended up with the same exact finish on the car (after some gun adjustments) as my Craftsman. So what exactly is the difference? I couldn't tell, other than $100.00.

I had, 20+ years ago, a Badger and I remember it always clogging up and it was a pain to take apart for cleaning (I think that's one of the reasons I never did much with it). So I too have asked here and at other forums -"Which AB do you recommend for painting this and this... and why?". I read through hundreds of post, maybe thousands, to try and figure out why people prefer this AB over that AB? I also picked up a few AB'ing books from the library. With that information I then searched the AB companies web sites to determine which of their models would best suit my spraying needs. I then searched web sites that sold the brands and models of AB's that seemed to suit my needs.

Just a note: Lot's of places on the web suggest Iwata's as one of the "higher quality" AB's compared to others.

So with my needs in mind and all the information and pricing, I made my educated selections.

I'm starting off with an Iwata Eclipse HP-BCS and either the Eclispe HP-BS or the High Performance Plus HP-SB (cost a little more but probably the better choice). I found the Iwata models above didn't cost much more than the Badger models I picked out. Actually the Iwata HP-BCS is only $10.00 more then the Badger 175. I might start off with the HP-SB and the Vega 600 that Badger has on sale for $20.00... maybe???

Now all I have to worry about is practicing and finding my sweet spot for air pressure, thinned paint, type of paint and of course most important of all - my skill level and expertise hopefully will improve over time.

Oh by the way; my co-worker tried spraying a car with my Craftsman gun. He had the same results as with his DeVilbiss. He's now thinking of what he "could" have bought with that extra $100.00

Sorry guys for the long essay.

I-beam wrote:

I was using the term "pros" to mean "professional" meaning anyone who makes money or sells thier work even if they don't make money. Yep it is a personal choice it's alot about popularity contest too.

I know what you meant my friend but there are a lot of well-known pros that are paid by Iwata and they fill the pages of the airbrush magazines monthly and have an Iwata in their hand in every photo.

Whenever I see someone painting in my travels I always check out what their painting, their technique and what they are using. Do I really have to list out every single one?  It's always iwata, why?  Are they all paid? Can I get on the payroll too even if I'm really bad?

A lot of it is perception as well as following the masses. Why are BMW cars perceived as better than a Lexus? I think it's the same thing. People perceive them as better because they are a little fancier or people brag about their quality constantly.
I am in no way saying Iwata is not a good airbrush, it is an excellent airbrush and is as good as anything out there, but as others always say, in the right hand these pros could paint better with a Paasche VL than you or I could with an Iwata Micron.

Mike

MusicCity wrote:

Any time you are talking about consumer goods there will ALWAYS be one group that swears one brand is better than another and another group that swears the first group is wrong and that they are right. The bottom line is that in most cases both sides are right.  There is no "Best" anything.  There is no "Best" gun or car or microwave oven.  There is no "Best" digital camera or stereo or GPS receiver.  There is also no "Best" airbrush.  The "Best" in any category for any particular person is the one that the person prefers and that does what they want it to do. This is because individuals have different criteria for determining what "Best" means.  To some people a high-quality finish is the determining criteria.  To others prices or bells-and-whistles is what determines "Best".  Iwata airbrushes may be have a slightly higher quality in their machining but there is no question that you pay for that.  Ford may have more bells and whistles than Chevy, but those same bells and whistles may be meaningless to some people. I prefer Badger.  Others prefer Iwata.  It doesn't matter.  It's the hand that holds the airbrush that determines the quality of the paint job.

Amen Scott! My sentiments exactly.

Mike

Any time you are talking about consumer goods there will ALWAYS be one group that swears one brand is better than another and another group that swears the first group is wrong and that they are right.

The bottom line is that in most cases both sides are right.  There is no "Best" anything.  There is no "Best" gun or car or microwave oven.  There is no "Best" digital camera or stereo or GPS receiver.  There is also no "Best" airbrush.  The "Best" in any category for any particular person is the one that the person prefers and that does what they want it to do.

This is because individuals have different criteria for determining what "Best" means.  To some people a high-quality finish is the determining criteria.  To others prices or bells-and-whistles is what determines "Best".  Iwata airbrushes may be have a slightly higher quality in their machining but there is no question that you pay for that.  Ford may have more bells and whistles than Chevy, but those same bells and whistles may be meaningless to some people.

I prefer Badger.  Others prefer Iwata.  It doesn't matter.  It's the hand that holds the airbrush that determines the quality of the paint job.

why are my posts always so long?!!!!!!!  even i felt sick just to proof-read it. 

well i put up this post really wasn't to find out which one is the best brush.  it's more of a objection to crap opinions people make when they only have a one sided subjective comment saying "hey i used this, it's great." and start to put down other ABs.  i personally would rather go through them all and find the one that suits me.  n i'd hoped to see more people with more experiences using different brands posting what they feel about the ABs they used and the results achieved.  'cause let's face it, everyday we see a new post on which airbrush should one buy and there really aren't a strict testing procedure, review site, or even a well archived section for them to find the information on their own.  yes they can use the search button but if you actually do try that yourself, most of the time you will find what i mentioned in the beginning of this paragraph and short of anything helpful, with several good suggestions among several hundreds of threads.

this will also save us some breath/key strokes trying to answer similar threads over and over again.  i don't know how many people share my opinion on this, but if i were to have enough wealth to get a good variety of the ABs (don't we all wish that... =P ) on the market and try to find a way to test them all, like those photography equipment review sites (www.dpreview.com), i'd totally have done it.

MikeV wrote:

Which "pros" are you talking about? The ones Iwata pays? T-shirt artists use Badger, Iwata, Paasche and others. It is all a matter of personal preference really.

I was using the term "pros" to mean "professional" meaning anyone who makes money or sells thier work even if they don't make money. Yep it is a personal choice it's alot about popularity contest too.  I don't have the resources to gather the data and post a  spreadsheet of all pros worldwide and the airbrushes they use so I guess my statement falls flat on it's face.  I've learned my lesson.  No more posting in these "which airbrush is better" threads.  Whenever I see someone painting in my travels I always check out what their painting, their technique and what they are using. Do I really have to list out every single one?  It's always iwata, why?  Are they all paid? Can I get on the payroll too even if I'm really bad?  

Thanks John.

I always value you're opinion my friend and appreciate your knowledge.
I will check out that forum, but if it is like the airbrush.com forum it will fall on deaf ears.

Mike

I had to respond to this just like I did to the post on the WetCanvas web site. Although I don't post that often on the wetcanvas website  I have visited that web site often for the last couple of years. It is my opinion that most users there use Iwata's and that is the only airbrush they have used or they owned a badger single action and then base there opinion between the airbrushes on that. I will give my two cents on the differences between the two.1) There is not an Iwata airbrush made that atomizes paint any better than the equivalent Badger airbrush.for example my Badger 100lg sparys every bit as good as my Iwata HP-C and depending which head assembly I use it can spray thicker paint. 2) Owning an Iwata isn't going to make you a better painter.3) Iwata's aren't made out of some super metals-they are still made out of brass and then plated.4) I think Badger needles are ground very good just as good as Iwata's- I say this because I usually make my own needles when I need a new one. Which leads me into 4) I too have worked as a machinist and work in a machine shop at work when required. The tolerences appear to be about the same for the two brands of airbrushes-where the difference comes in is in the design of certain parts. For example, the trigger and how it is held in place. Iwatas have a thicker trigger stem which gives it a more robust feel and pivot on a pin. I will say that the Iwatas have a higher level of finish than newer Badger airbrushes except for the Sotar. I have an old Badger100 side feed from the late 80's that is finished much better than my newer one that I bought last year. I can see machining marks on the body of the new one. I also have a newer Thayer and Chandler Omni 500 that the finish actualy has a bur on the color cup that wasn't removed and platted over.
As far as most pro's using Iwata's- I guess if I was sponsered by a manufacturor I would use their product. Those pro's could produce the same results with any make airbrush.
I will say this, the airbrush you use is a personal choice and overall most airbrushes are very good and will produce good results whether they be a Iwata,Badger or Paasche to name a few.
Good Luck with your airbrushing
John
P.S. Mike why don't you drop by that other forum and put a good word in for Badger airbrushes as I think I was the only one that did.

I guess it really depends on personal prefernce I use a Paasche H for ease of use availability of parts in my area rather than hunting everywhere for something else aka I'm lazy.

I-beam wrote:

Interesting thoughts Archangel.  I have both and here is how I think of it: (1) Most pro airbrushers use iwata.  Except for t-shirt painters for which pasche is a strong contender there.  Is the rest of the world wrong?  Why would they use them if they didn't work the way they wanted?

Which "pros" are you talking about? The ones Iwata pays?
T-shirt artists use Badger, Iwata, Paasche and others.
It is all a matter of personal preference really.

(2) Airbrushes can be compared in many ways.  I don't really care how fine a line they can paint but that is important.  What I care about is how fine the brush atomizes the paint.  How do you measure that? I don't know.  Strictly my judgement only I think badger is 2nd place in that category.

I disagree but that's alright.

(3)  My 3rd criteria is quality of the machined metal components.  Iwata is way out in front in this category.  If you ever worked in a machine shop (I have) you can't argue this point becase the tell-tell signs are blatantly obvious.  Every badger I have except my 175 has had to be tweaked because something didn't fit right or the needle was badly machined and had to be polished out.

I disagree here also. Some Iwatas are smoother but that is what you are paying double the price for.
Put a little lube in a Badger and it feels as smooth as any of them in my opinion.

I'm not dissin badger.  I own both, I use both.  I have faith in badger to improve even more but that might come at a cost to the consumer so I don't think it will happen.  I'm just responding to this post.

That is true and that is why Badger sells more airbrushes annually that all other manufacturers combines.

Just because a Rolex is better machined does not make it a better watch than a Seiko.

I own both and use both as well... the Iwata I use for camo and detail work, the 175 I use for overall painting on larger subjects.  I also have a 155 which used to do the job the Iwata does now, the Iwata does it better.  Mainly because it is a gravity fed versus siphon and I think the needle nozzle combo on it contributes to it as well.

Both Badgers seem well manufactured well to me, but the Iwata feels more precise in its mechanism to my untrained hand.

Interesting thoughts Archangel.  I have both and here is how I think of it:

(1) Most pro airbrushers use iwata.  Except for t-shirt painters for which pasche is a strong contender there.  Is the rest of the world wrong?  Why would they use them if they didn't work the way they wanted?

(2) Airbrushes can be compared in many ways.  I don't really care how fine a line they can paint but that is important.  What I care about is how fine the brush atomizes the paint.  How do you measure that? I don't know.  Strictly my judgement only I think badger is 2nd place in that category.

(3)  My 3rd criteria is quality of the machined metal components.  Iwata is way out in front in this category.  If you ever worked in a machine shop (I have) you can't argue this point becase the tell-tell signs are blatantly obvious.  Every badger I have except my 175 has had to be tweaked because something didn't fit right or the needle was badly machined and had to be polished out.

I'm not dissin badger.  I own both, I use both.  I have faith in badger to improve even more but that might come at a cost to the consumer so I don't think it will happen.  I'm just responding to this post.