Tamiya Acrylics & A Very Dissatisfied Customer

Glad things worked out for you.  Its interesting that Hobbytown was that supportive.  Thats who I buy my paints off of.  Its interesting they told you they rotate there paint inventory around.

I used to use mainly Testors MM paints too but made the switch over to Tamiya.  It really is great paint once you get used to it.  Its a shame you had that bad experience with them but I think that was just a fluke maybe.  I usually wait 24 hrs or more between coats but I have shot 2nd coats as quick as 3 hrs depending on what I'm doing at the time.  I've never used there white yet mainly because I've taken to building mostly armor (some aircraft still so I"ll end up using white at some point).  I mainly use the X20a thinner too but I read lots of people using isopropyl alcohol 90% to thin as well. 

I thought y'all might like to see what the final product ended up looking like.  I used the Testors' MM enamels and the decals were created using Testors' Printable decals on a Canon photo printer.

I was pleased with the results, although I will say if you are going to use the printable decals, make sure you use a color other than complimentary colors on painted areas. Had I known that the blue would be so transparent, I would have gone with reds and oranges instead of the blues and greens on the sides. They kind of got killed by the yellow underneath.

I hope y'all enjoy the pics and thanks for looking!

http://www.gtgeek.com/gtgeek/Images/SlotCars/jg-mville-956-001-030406.jpg

http://www.gtgeek.com/gtgeek/Images/SlotCars/jg-mville-956-002-030406.jpg

http://www.gtgeek.com/gtgeek/Images/SlotCars/jg-mville-956-003-030406.jpg

http://www.gtgeek.com/gtgeek/Images/SlotCars/jg-mville-956-004-030406.jpg

http://www.gtgeek.com/gtgeek/Images/SlotCars/jg-mville-956-005-030406.jpg

 

Excellent news. Yet another reason why supporting the LHS is a good idea. I wonder what the response would have been from an online supplier? I'm not knocking online stores, they fill a niche, especially for those who don't have the option of a LHS, but months later and without a receipt? I think you would have been a sad shopper!

A shame that acrylics didn't give you the result you expected. I find them a pleasure to work with and a cinch to clean up after. My wife appreciates the difference in smells (though she still thinks acrylics stink!) and we all know if "Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy"!

I just wanted to follow up and let you know that Hobby Town really stepped up to the plate and gave me a full exchange, even towards the paint I used.  Bill, the owner of the Kennesaw, GA location I purchased from was very helpful and went above and beyond even though it was not required (I did not have a receipt).  I appreciate that very much and just wanted to let everyone know.  They deserve the praise.

Bgrigg wrote:

That's the problem with you southeners, all that humidity! I can't imagine what life must be like, moss hanging everywhere, mold and mildew in the corners. Zydeco blaring in the air, that wierd little chef going BAM! BAM! all the time. Much better up here where you can freeze your @$$ off! At least the paint dries. Glad to hear the LHS is going to help you out!

Hey!  Mold and Zydeco beat the heck out of falling through the ice while ice fishing!  Zydeco, typically, is a seven+ hour drive south west of here, btw...  or at least it was before Hurricane season last year.

I usually don't wait too long for a second coat, maybe just a couple hours.  I'm sure a lot of it has to do with humidity.  It's very dry here in Nevada so things dry fast.

I let my coat of Tamiya acrylic "dry" for just less than 30 minutes, then I apply another coat on top of it. Never really saw any problems doing this, but hey maybe that's just me....

John, I swapped my entire paint stash for Tamiya a while ago... I never let my stuff dry that long... two days and I'm good to go. between coats I usually wait 6 hours. As for the bad shipment? I bet that's what happened. Over the summer I think Tamiya got in trouble for not having the proper warnings on their paints, and had to have it shipped back and relabeled. I've got some colors with two label stickers on them hehe. Maybe your paint sat in one of those containers for a couple weeks... Let me tell you those things are no fun. This summer I was unloading fake Christmas trees from one in 98 degree heat. It was about 130 in the trailer

That's the problem with you southeners, all that humidity! I can't imagine what life must be like, moss hanging everywhere, mold and mildew in the corners. Zydeco blaring in the air, that wierd little chef going BAM! BAM! all the time.

Much better up here where you can freeze your @$$ off! At least the paint dries.

Glad to hear the LHS is going to help you out!

espins1 wrote:

I'm thinking something in the tape sticky goo may have reacted with the paint, although I use Tamiya Acrylics almost exclusively and have never had a problem with them.  The best part about them is that simple windex (it's the amonia in it that disolves the acrylic) will take even completely dried paint right off.  I had to do that the other day with my P-47 prop, just sprayed it with windex and wiped it off.  Now it's ready to be repainted.  You can also use just a tiny bit of windex on a q-tip or cloth if you need to clean up a little spot. Anyway, that's really odd about your paint.  Is there any chance it got contaminated some how?

Is there a chance?  Of course.  Do I think it was due to something I did?  I don't know what I could have done differently.  I washed it with mild grease removing detergent, didn't touch it again till tape time, and the paint didn't act like it was not adhering to the plastic.  It literally reacted with the tape.  I looked like it bubbled wherever the tape was touching the paint. It was Tamiya model masking tape, also.  You would think they would, you know, work together...  lol

I actually talked to the owner of the Hobby Town that sold me the stuff today and he said that 6-9 months ago, which was when I purchased it, they had received a batch of bad paint from Tamiya.  Hobby Town is going to work with me however I wish to proceed and take care of it - either replacing the Tamiya with Tamiya or with another brand they carry.  I am more than a little gun shy about the acrylics at this point because of the insanely long dry times everyone is talking about on here and in other forums.  7-10 days for hobby paint to dry is a bit (read: ridiculously) outside acceptable levels to me.  Up to 240 hours of dry time?  That is just silly.

I'm thinking something in the tape sticky goo may have reacted with the paint, although I use Tamiya Acrylics almost exclusively and have never had a problem with them.  The best part about them is that simple windex (it's the amonia in it that disolves the acrylic) will take even completely dried paint right off.  I had to do that the other day with my P-47 prop, just sprayed it with windex and wiped it off.  Now it's ready to be repainted.  You can also use just a tiny bit of windex on a q-tip or cloth if you need to clean up a little spot.

Anyway, that's really odd about your paint.  Is there any chance it got contaminated some how?

Hey John,

I've read this thread with some interest, and it seems you've gotten things in  hand, but I'll add my 2 cents in as well regarding Tamiya.

Tamiya's paint, more than any other brand I've used (except maybe Humbrol), has to be stirred as completely as possible. In fact, each of my Tamiya bottles has a few stainless steel BBs I drop in when I buy the bottle. If I'm going to use a color, I'll open the jar, stir up the contents, then I chuck the entire bottle in my lathe (gently of course), and let it spin at low rpm for at least 20-30 minutes. Yeah, I know, a $1200 paint shaker...lol.

Thinning is also the key, as Tamiyas are very sensitive. I typically thin my Tamiya paint a little more than I do with Model Master, and I apply it with a little higher pressure than normal. The key to getting a good finish is to apply several thin layers that flash just as the paint hits the model, then apply your very last coat as a lower pressure, wet coat to get to the flow and levelling of the paint you need.

If you apply more than 2 coats, let it dry at least a week to 10 days.

And last but not least, Tamiya is really fussy about the initial surface of the plastic. If mold release, finger oils, or any other impurity is on the model, the paint will react, curdling, puddling, or even  peeling off in chunks. And masking, forget about it, if the surface isn't perfect, it'll lift.

I strongly recommend using a good quality primer first, either Mr. Surfacer 1200, or...head down to your local autobody shop and buy an acrylic urethane primer. It takes some getting used to, but the results will be well worth it. Learning to put a hot primer over plastic takes some practice (there's the official warning - the primer can attack the plastic if applied too heavily), but once you figure it out, you'll wonder how you lived without it.

Spraying gloss finishes with acrylics has always been problematic, and lacquers and enamels are far better suited to getting those hi-gloss finishes. In fact, I know some car modelers who use thinned fingernail polish and get spectacular results. The finishes are generally harder than regular paints because of the composition of the polish itself.

Hope that helps,

Jeff

Living Legend wrote:

I have been using Tamiya acrylic for some time now because honestly Testors MM acrylic looks dull, limp, lifeless and seems to be even more fragile and prone to more masking problems then Tamiya.  Tamiya looks vibrant and bold.  I have even used xf-2 without primer and masked with Tamiya tape over it for DDAY stripes many times.  With usaully about 24 hours drying time.  The worst problem Ive ever encountered was soley and 100% my fault and that is simply handling the model to soon after painting and having some of the paint scratch.  Sorry about your bad luck.

I totally agree that Tamiya has a wonderful color selection — that was probably the biggest reason I let them talk me into it.  That does me no good if it doesn't work, however...

Sorry, X-20A...  Bottle was turned slightly. 

I have been using Tamiya acrylic for some time now because honestly Testors MM acrylic looks dull, limp, lifeless and seems to be even more fragile and prone to more masking problems then Tamiya.  Tamiya looks vibrant and bold.  I have even used xf-2 without primer and masked with Tamiya tape over it for DDAY stripes many times.  With usaully about 24 hours drying time.  The worst problem Ive ever encountered was soley and 100% my fault and that is simply handling the model to soon after painting and having some of the paint scratch.  Sorry about your bad luck.

JohnGo wrote:

This wasn't canned spray.  It was bottled through an airbrush using the Tamiya X-20 thinner as recommended.

Just a minor point - did you use the X-20 thinner or X-20A? X-20 is the enamel thinner and X-20A is the acrylic thinner.

I have only ever used X-20A or denatured alcohol to thin Tamiya acrylics - If you did inadvertantly use the enamel thinner with the acrylic paint, that may account for the results you had.

 

I'm glad to have helped. Windex works great at cleaning Airbrushes too (only with acrylics!). I clean with that then wash out with distilled water (I live in the mountains of BC which has very hard water).

If you think Toronto is nice, come and visit Vancouver.

80 below with wind chill is a bit much for me too, though I used to play outside at 50 below!

Good luck with the repainting! Let me know what happens tomorrow with the hobby store. I hope the do the right thing.

Pucker up, big boy!  That worked like a charm. 

One of my coworker's husband is there now.  I also have a good friend who is working security in Israel.  We do have it good.  I can't argue that. 

I made my first trip to Canada a couple of years ago when we went to Niagara Falls for Valentine's Day.  We flew into Toronto and drove down to the the falls.  What an awesome city Toronto was.  I have to admit it was the friendliest large city I have visited.  We had a great time, and if you haven't seen the falls with 80' of ice in front of them, it is a sight to behold.  I loved Ontario, although 80 below with the wind chill was bit much for this native Floridian...  Y'all can have those winters!

Thank you!

jg

 

Really it's okay, I'm kissable, but not THAT kissable.

And I'm not stuck in hell, only trying to help out those who are. The simple fact is I'm a Canadian (and yes I am trying to help out the Canucks in Afghanistan, it's not easy dealing with the Canadian government, I can only send postcards and letters so far!) with some American friends who have sons and daughters in the sandbox. And regardless if I like your President or not, I have a great deal of respect for a volunteer army who tries to export freedoms I enjoy as a birthright.

Fine advice, nonetheless!

Dude, if this works, I hope you are cute, cause I am gonna kiss you on the mouth... 

And I didn't know you were stuck over in hell.  I may be able to help you out if nothing comes of that tomorrow.

Be safe and keep your head down...

Believe it or not, but Windex works wonders on removing acrylics.

I use the "expensive" Tamiya thinner to thin paints (I buy the 250ml bottles, which is WAY cheaper than the glass jars), and use Windex with ammonia (the blue bottle, not that wussy green stuff) to clean my AB and color cups etc. Try soaking the model in Windex overnight. Should have ponied up that info before. Sorry for having a slow brain tonight!

Actually I don't even use Windex anymore, I found window cleaner concentrate with ammonia at the local Home Depot for $8 per gallon bottle. At a 1 part concentrate to 30 parts water that 30 gallons of cleaner for $8. Helps offset the expense of the thinner. Once I run through the two bottles I've already bought I'm switching to 99% Iso with Liquidtex Acrylic Retarder (Flow aid I think it's called) to slow down the drying time.

I haven't used a lot of white, modeling WWII aircraft and armor doesn't give you much opportunity for that, so can't speak on it's worth. I've heard it's thin and difficult to paint with.

I just finished painting a two color camo on a 1:48 Mosquito. Sprayed the base coat, waited a couple of hours and masked using 3M green painting tape and sprayed the second colour AND removed the mask in one day using 1 100 watt bulb as a drying aid. No lift off, no bleed under, no problems. All with Tamiya XF paints.

Again, I hope that the store sees it's way to helping you out. If you do get stuck, I know some nice guys in Iraq who could use acrylic paints (Paints are needed!).

Bgrigg wrote:

I hope the hobby store agrees to take back your paints! If not maybe you can ebay them or something and at least salvage some of your money. I hope you find an answer to the problem, as I said, I only use Tamiya acrylics and I just don't seem to have any problems brushing or spraying.

Oh, that is the "other foot" of the story.  Hobby Town in Kennesaw, GA is where I got the paints several months ago, at the urging of their salesperson.  This is the first real test I have had the chance to perform. 

So I take the bag of paints up there this evening and ask to speak to a manager.  I was calm, polite and explained what had happened and asked if it would be at all possible to get an exchange (I didn't have a receipt.  I have no idea where it is...).  They said no, that their paints are rotated weekly, which, frankly, I have to question.  I'm sorry, but their paint selection is good, but not THAT good and they have the same stuff there month after month — kind of like their slot car selection which hasn't been restocked since before Christmas... 

So, while I am standing there, a friend I have made at the place while spending my money and time there comes up behind the manager at about the same time I am explaining how much time and money I spend at that store and says "Yeah, he really does."  It doesn't even phase the manager.  Nope.  Sorry (yeah, you act it...).

I am not asking them to replace the bottles I have opened.  I'm not asking for my money back.  I'm not giving them back broken, unuseable product.  I am just asking them to help out a decent customer who is a "regular" and that they gave not-so-solid advice to.

After a large discussion on the www.slotcarillustrated.com boards about how store-front hobby shops are hurting and that their business is falling off in large numbers, you would think they would be a little more flexible with regular customers.

I have to call in the morning and talk to the owner.  I'll keep you informed of how it goes.

Oh, I am not second guessing myself, and at nearly $3.00 a bottle, I am allowed to be hard on them...   I have never had these kinds of issues with Testors MM paints.  The sad part is, the finish was about as close to perfect as I could have hoped.  I pulled that tape off and when I realized that it wasn't residue, but that it had reacted with the paint, my jaw hit the floor as did my heart.  I have a club race on the 4th I was trying to get this car done for and at this point, I am not even sure I can get all the old paint off to fix it, and if I can, if I can get it repainted that quick.

Does anyone know the best method of getting this poo off the model once it has dried?  I have it soaking in 70% alcohol (no, not the good stuff -- the Captain is in me...) as we speak, but it is still being quite stubborn in the small pockets and detail areas.

Hmm, I was thinking perhaps you used polycarbonate paint on styrene, which is far to "hot".

Priming is said to help, but to be honest I've never down more than swab with isoprophyl alcohol. I have tack cloths, but I only use them for dusting a painted model, not for cleaning a model prior to painting. Perhaps residue from the tack cloth caused a problem? I doubt it, but I'm grasping at straws here.

I hope the hobby store agrees to take back your paints! If not maybe you can ebay them or something and at least salvage some of your money. I hope you find an answer to the problem, as I said, I only use Tamiya acrylics and I just don't seem to have any problems brushing or spraying.

Don't second-guess yourself and don't be too hard on Tamiya.  From what I see you did everything right, and Tamiya really does make good acrylic.  Sometimes things just conspire to cause problems.  Could have been some kind of contamination on the tape (I use Tamiya tape all the time with no problems, but that doesn't mean it can't happen).  Could have been excessively humid or cold or hot.  Could have been oil from handling between coats.  It COULD have been a lot of things, but odds are you'll never know what.  I've had bad experiences with certain brands of paint, others have had good results with the same brand of paint.  It's just all part of it, and sometimes lousy things happen.

Bgrigg wrote:

JohnGo, I use Tamiya Acrylics exclusively and have never had the trouble you describe. Are you using the X and XF series of paints? Or are you using the PC series?

The two I still have sitting in sight of me are X series.

ajlafleche wrote:

Join the club. I haven't used it in 10 years. The first generation was great, 20-25 years ago, but the formula changed. You will find very quickly, it can't be brushed without burnt offerings and other arcane sacrifices and rituals. And even then, the slightest unknown ifraction offending the gods of tamiya will result in the paint dissolving as a fresh brush load touches the edge. The paint might be worthwhile on the target range for the effects of the exploding bottle, but not for much else, IMHO. In it's (not quite) defence, was the slot car lexan? That may make a difference in the level of adhession.

LOL!  I knew the chicken beheading wouldn't suffice for a dead goat.  THAT must be it!

The car is Slot.It's white Porsche 956.  It is the same type of plastic as most "standard" model kits.  I used to paint the Lexan kits when I raced the competition slots in Florida back in the late 80's.

plasticmod992 wrote:

*Denatured alcohol works excellent as an alternate thinner/ airbrush cleaner-  just $3.00 for a quart!

Discovered this after two bottles of the Tamiya stuff cleaning my airbrush...

plasticmod992 wrote:

*Swab the area to be painted with denatured acohol to clean the plastic to maximize adhesion.

Did this after using a tack cloth.

plasticmod992 wrote:

Priming the plastic is the best course of action if you anticipate alot of masking.  A thin dusting coat is sufficient.

Did not do this.

plasticmod992 wrote:

*Let the freshly painted areas cure for at least an hour before applying additional coats.

I let the first coat dry for 30 hours.  The second for 48 or so hours before applying the paint-eating tape. 

plasticmod992 wrote:

A hair drier, home-made drying oven, or setting the part/ model under a 60-100 watt lamp helps speed drying.

I used the light method (100W) for several hours on all coats.

I have been using Tamiya acrylics now for the past year or so with no problems.  At first, I must admit, I detested them and nearly trashed them.  But after reading, studying, and taking note of how other modelers use them in their projects, I now swear by them.  Funny, I never had any issues with Tamiya whites, eather XF-2 or X-2.  Actually, I feel that they are more brilliant than my main-stay enamels.  Heres a few photos of my 1/72nd scale T-45A Goshawk, I finished it entirely with Tamiya acrylics.  The white sprayed and finished beautifully IMHO.  Stay with them, they really are very excellent paints.  Have fun!  Here are some tips I learned when using Tamiya.

*Denatured alcohol works excellent as an alternate thinner/ airbrush cleaner-  just $3.00 for a quart! 

*Swab the area to be painted with denatured acohol to clean the plastic to maximize adhesion.  Priming the plastic is the best course of action if you anticipate alot of masking.  A thin dusting coat is sufficient.

*Let the freshly painted areas cure for at least an hour before applying additional coats.  A hair drier, home-made drying oven, or setting the part/ model under a 60-100 watt lamp helps speed drying.

* For drybrushing, add a drop of distilled water to the paint to retard premature drying, and use the technique as usual.

* For brush painting, add a drop of "retarder" to the paint.  Try products such as the ones in the photo below.  This will slow the drying of the paint to allow prolonged sessions of brush painting. 

*For finishing clear coats try adding Tamiya Flat Base to Furture floor polish to achieve various degrees of gloss to a dead flat finish.