Metallics Test Shots * * Response from Alclad! * * 28 Feb

To recap part of this thread:

A few weekends ago I was spraying a test strip with some Alclad 2 Stainless Steel that had just arrived.  The finish was nicely smooth, but the pigment was mottled, with dark splotches all over. 

On Monday 2/27 I e-mailed Alclad with a picture and asked what they thought might have been the cause. 

On Tuesday 2/28 I got a reply from Tony Hipp of Alclad.  He said apparently the die was not adhering to the metal plates but clumping up instead.  He said there were a few things that could cause it, none easily remedied, but if I would give him my address he'd send a new bottle.  I responded that day. 

On Wednesday 3/1 I got another reply.  Tony said he thought he might have used the wrong amount of pigment when making that batch, and that he had shipped me a new bottle that morning.  He also included a bottle of their new Gold Titanium and a bottle of Clear Gloss Undercoat to try out.  There was also an e-mail from UPS with the tracking number of the package.

The package arrived Monday 3/6. I can't say enough good things about these guys!

Jim Barton wrote:

I'll probably be at the IPMS Craig Hewitt meeting Tuesday; it's only a fifteen minute drive from my apartment in north-central Phoenix. I have to agree with you on the dust, Neptune48; it is just getting everywhere. (It doesn't help that I don't get out the feather duster as often as I should.) Fortunately, my models are kept under dust covers but my insulator collection really needs a good washing! Perhaps some of you in California or the Pacific Northwest can send some rain this way?

Hope to see you there, Jim.  I paint in my garage, which presents major dust challenges.  The number 1 remedy is to paint the concrete floor.  Concrete perpetually erodes fine dust, but if you coat it the dust is reduced about 90%.  I have to do frequent vacuuming and wipe downs; I run an old room humidifier and some fans for cross ventilation during painting sessions.

Regards,
Bruce

I'll probably be at the IPMS Craig Hewitt meeting Tuesday; it's only a fifteen minute drive from my apartment in north-central Phoenix.

I have to agree with you on the dust, Neptune48; it is just getting everywhere. (It doesn't help that I don't get out the feather duster as often as I should.) Fortunately, my models are kept under dust covers but my insulator collection really needs a good washing!

Perhaps some of you in California or the Pacific Northwest can send some rain this way?

Bruce, check your email...let's chat.

Jeff

After that quick response yesterday, I found this in my e-mail first thing this morning (posted by permission):

Hello Bruce

I've sent you a package-you should get an e-mail from UPS. The problem with the paint you've got, I think, is that I used the amount of dye needed for 20 liters when I only made up 10. I've test sprayed some of the batch which the replacement is from with good results.  It is best to apply the S/Steel sparingly and don't recoat until the carrier has evaporated (you can see this happening). I've also enclosed some new items which aren't readily available yet: Gold Titanium--same application as Stainless Steel--and Clear Base--this is mainly for aircraft models.  These kits are normally grey or silver plastic; the Clear Base turns the plastic into gloss grey or silver, which in turn affects Chrome, Polished Aluminium and Stainless Steel.  The degree of reflection is the same but the lighter colour of the base makes for a more realistic finish-less like a car bumper of Christmas decoration.  You can also paint some parts of an aircraft kit gloss black, then all over clear base, and using one of the Hi-Shine finishes get a 'quilted effect' without having to mask the top coat.

Regards

Tony Hipp

Okay, so he's not only taking responsibility for a bad batch, and replacing the product, but he's also sending samples of other new stuff, and tips on how to use them!  Am I dreaming?  Truly this is customer support the way it should be.  Guys, use Alclad II!  It's a good product from a good company!

 BTW, I got some Titanium Gold already (it's part of the test shots above), and it's very cool. It's more gold than the Pale Burnt Metal, and also more transparent, so it will show undercoat color effects.

Then I wrote to thank Tony, and I asked if copper BBs were okay to use for agitators.  He said they were.

Oh, and a few messages before Tony's was the promised e-mail from UPS that the package was on the way!

I am thoroughly impressed.

And although I've been using the same package of BBs for about 5 years now without problems, I'm going to degrease the remainder, just in case!  Great idea!

Bruce

hkshooter wrote:

…degrease whatever you use. There is bound to be some left over manfacturing goo left on them from the factory, especially cheap bb's.

OOoooggg! Why didn't I think of that!!! Arrrgh! Excellent point—even sharper thant he one on my head…

I'd stick with the stainless. Either way, degrease whatever you use. There is bound to be some left over manfacturing goo left on them from the factory, especially cheap bb's.

Stainless isn't cheap!

You can also try McMaster-Carr, Grainger, and Brownells. The yellow pages under "bearings" would also be a good thing to check, as if there is a local supplier, you can probably buy just the few you need.

If BBs turn out to be the only practical method, use a magnet on the side of the jar to pull them out when you are done—that way the copper will have less chance to work evil on the pigment.

Triarius wrote:

Bruce, Try Small Parts. I think I saw them there.

Well, they have them (thanks for the link), but yikes!  $3.75 for 100, plus shipping. That's around a nickel each.  And that's the cheap stainless steel.  $7.50 for the highest grade. Copper BBs are 2500ct for $4.99 (0.2 cents each)!  Okay, I'll pay if necessary, but first I'll test the new bottle when it arrives.  Stir with a plastic stir stick, pour a sample into a paint bottle and shoot.  Add two copper BBs to the paint bottle, shake well, and shoot.  If the problem appears, I'll spring for the gold, er, stainless steel agitators.  But sometimes I'm just so cheap!

Bruce,

Try Small Parts. I think I saw them there.

Triarius wrote:

Bruce, That is impressive customer service! I also understand the technology behind what Tony Hipp is saying. It could be related to how old the bottle is. Some metallic paints have a very definite shelf life before this occurs—I wonder if that is what happened. When this occurs, it is often a problem with the limits of available technology. The coating on the metal flakes is critical, but adds yet another variable to formulation. Metallic pigments can be a real PITA.

And I'll shy away from copper BBs just in case.  Do you know where to get stainless steel BBs (ball bearings maybe)?

Bruce

Bruce,

That is impressive customer service! I also understand the technology behind what Tony Hipp is saying. It could be related to how old the bottle is. Some metallic paints have a very definite shelf life before this occurs—I wonder if that is what happened. When this occurs, it is often a problem with the limits of available technology. The coating on the metal flakes is critical, but adds yet another variable to formulation. Metallic pigments can be a real PITA.

Triarius wrote:

Interesting to see if Alclad responds, and with what. The new pictures are sweet! Thanks again!

Ross,

Tony Hipp of Alclad responded THE NEXT DAY!  Here's what he said:

Thank you for your e-mail. I'm sorry the Stainless Steel you've got is causing problems-it seems that the dye which colours the metal plates is not adhering to them but clumping up when it is sprayed-there are a few things which could cause this but none which can be remedied easily. If you would let me have a shipping address I'll send you some more which I hope you can use on your project.

Regards
Tony Hipp
Alclad II

Now that's impressive customer service!  I'll hold off on more test shots until the replacement bottle arrives.

Regards,
Bruce

Neptune48 wrote:

What I lack in modeling skills I try to compensate in grunt work! I e-mailed Alclad to see if they had any suggestions.  In the meantime, with the airbrush thoroughly cleaned, I'll try another test on some scrap. I replaced the wide shots above with labeled versions.  I think the decals on the closeup are readable.  Please let me know if they aren't.

I resemble that first remark! Just let's remember: genius is 1 percent inspiration, and 99 percent perspiration!

Interesting to see if Alclad responds, and with what.

The new pictures are sweet! Thanks again!

Triarius wrote:

Contamination could be part of the problem, too. I would guess from Alclad's literature that the stainless steel color may have a different resin/solvent combination than the others. They may not be compatible. I seem to recall from the long ago a talk by Walt Fink, who was an early and strong advocate for the original Alclad, at a "local" IPMS meeting. I think he said something about having to clean the airbrush particularly well between colors, and not to let the lacquer dry even slightly in the brush. If my recollection is correct, it makes sense: metallic lacquers are essentially suspensions of microscopic metal flakes in a dissolved resin. Because the flakes are flat, they tend to plate out and stick to surfaces on their own. (Anyone who has used SnJ powder has experienced this.) That, plus the relatively rapid evaporation rate of the solvents typically used in lacquers would increase the likelihood of a buildup in the nozzle of the airbrush. Thanks again for the research! Could you perhaps post pictures in which the decal labels were large enough to read?

First of all, you're welcome.  What I lack in modeling skills I try to compensate in grunt work!

I e-mailed Alclad to see if they had any suggestions.  In the meantime, with the airbrush thoroughly cleaned, I'll try another test on some scrap.

I replaced the wide shots above with labeled versions.  I think the decals on the closeup are readable.  Please let me know if they aren't.

Regards,

Bruce

That stuff will come in handy alot later. Thanks alot for putting this together. I'm sure it will help out others alot too.

Contamination could be part of the problem, too. I would guess from Alclad's literature that the stainless steel color may have a different resin/solvent combination than the others. They may not be compatible.

I seem to recall from the long ago a talk by Walt Fink, who was an early and strong advocate for the original Alclad, at a "local" IPMS meeting. I think he said something about having to clean the airbrush particularly well between colors, and not to let the lacquer dry even slightly in the brush. If my recollection is correct, it makes sense: metallic lacquers are essentially suspensions of microscopic metal flakes in a dissolved resin. Because the flakes are flat, they tend to plate out and stick to surfaces on their own. (Anyone who has used SnJ powder has experienced this.) That, plus the relatively rapid evaporation rate of the solvents typically used in lacquers would increase the likelihood of a buildup in the nozzle of the airbrush.

Thanks again for the research! Could you perhaps post pictures in which the decal labels were large enough to read?

Triarius wrote:

The copper coating on the BB's may very well be at least a part of the problem. It is certainly a possible factor. If that is so, that bottle of paint may have been permanently affected. Try this with a new bottle. In the future, use stainless ball bearings for this if you can. Ran into a similar problem with some rattle-cans when I was in R&D for a paint company.

Thanks, Triarius.

Unfortunately, the local hobby shops are behind the curve on stocking Alclad, so I'll have to wait and build up a minimum order with one of the online dealers.  I agree, if it's the copper, the whole bottle is contaminated.

The only other test is to shoot some scrap and see if it was a matter of contamination in the color cup of the airbrush, as I painted every third metallic in each of three sessions, and maybe didn't get the brush clean enough between paints.

Regards...

The copper coating on the BB's may very well be at least a part of the problem. It is certainly a possible factor. If that is so, that bottle of paint may have been permanently affected. Try this with a new bottle. In the future, use stainless ball bearings for this if you can.

Ran into a similar problem with some rattle-cans when I was in R&D for a paint company.

Neptune48 wrote:

There's an update a few posts down....

It's late Sunday afternoon in Phoenix.  I finished applying the label decals earlier this afternoon.  Making my own decals was another first, and a project like this is a good low-risk opportunity to learn something new.

I made several mistakes, including some unfortunate choices in masking media, and neglecting to protect enamel undercoats before shooting lacquers over the top.  There was some paint lifting and some crazing.  As I said above, time was short (I'm giving a presentation a week from Tuesday, and I still need to make an outline and whatever handouts I'll need), and I figured every mistake is just another datapoint in the experiment.  The 3M Professional masking tape lifted some Alclad, so I switched to Tamiya masking tape and Parafilm.  The Tamiya left a little discoloration on some finishes, but I think giving the paints enough time to cure would help a lot. Shooting clear barriers would also be a good idea.

The flat sheet color chips will help determine the color effects of the undercoats.  The Mk.I eyeball sees more subtle differences than these pictures can show.

The biggest advantage the large PVC pipe will give is the ability to see the effects on curved surfaces, and on viewing from angles other than straight-on.  I'm pretty well persuaded to try different base colors on various panels on the Tamiya P-47D bubble top on my bench. 

 

Here are two close-ups of the 3/4" PVC, which have only Mr. Surfacer and Alclad Gloss Black undercoats.   The demarkation is at the center of each picture.  Note in the first picture how the Chrome and the Polished Aluminum are most affected by the gloss black undercoat.  In the second picture, the Titanium Gold shows a big difference between the two base coats.

 

I want to use stainless steel around the waste gate of the P-47D, but unless I can fix the problem of this color mottling, I'll have to use ModelMaster.  I treated this paint the same as all the others.  I don't think there was anything different on the undercoat--the effect occurred on all three pieces.  The only other factor I can think of is the copper BBs used for agitators.  All the other bottles have copper BBs, too, but maybe there's some reaction with this particular paint.

Tonight I'll put a coat of Future to protect everything.

a definite yes from me too!!!

I think everybody would be interested—I certainly am!

Thanks for the research!