Model Master enamels verses Acryl

Sorry for the delay in response.  Here is where I obtained the color matching reference:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.models.scale/browse_frm/thread/b28e2606a3f7e97a/2615e6c696062665?q=color+matching+reference&rnum=2#2615e6c696062665

This is the original post containing the chart, that I use from Uban himself, dated 1993.  The current IPMS Stockholm chart is result of over 13 years of updates.  The original post by Urban contains the mixing recomendations and approximations I provided from his chart.  Hope this helps.

archangel571 wrote:

Phil_H wrote: Are you using X-20 or X-20A? X-20 is an enamel thinner, whereas X-20A is the acrylic thinner. If you are using the enamel thinner, that may explain things. I don't even think X-20 is available in the US since Tamiya didn't export their enamel line here.  X-20A does have a distinctive smell though.  but it goes away quick as well unlike the MM enamel thinner.  with that said, i still have a good assortment of MM enamels really because of the color choices (for aircrafts).  i always find Tamiya to be a little darker in shades and i suk at mixing colors.

Okies, sorry if I led anyone up the path with that one, as I wasn't aware that Tamiya enamels were unavailable in the US. It's not unusual here in Australia to find Tamiya acrylics and enamels side by side.

Kumy wrote:

Btw I do wear a respirator.  I picked a 3M one up from my local DIY store.  It seemed like a decent one.  This gets me wondering though.  Are there any big differences between types of respirators or is there something specific that modelers should look for in a respirator?  Mine covers my mouth and nose and has twin cartridge filters that are replaceable.

MikeV wrote:

They do not use the FS numbers on their paints like MM does, and that is what I meant.

Yea I see what you mean.  I've been doing so much armor that its been awhile since I did any other subjects.  But I really do enjoy aircraft so I'm gonna run into this problem too. 

MikeV wrote:

I wouldn't spend the extra money on a cleaner like that when many household products clean just as well for much less money. Try mixing 1 part Simple Green cleaner, 1 part Windex with 2 parts filtered or distilled water and see how that does for you. It cleans most acrylics very well.

Thanks Mike for that tip.   I'll give it a try next time and see how it does.  X20A is rather expensive even though I usually buy the big bottle of it.

Phil_H wrote:

Are you using X-20 or X-20A? X-20 is an enamel thinner, whereas X-20A is the acrylic thinner. If you are using the enamel thinner, that may explain things.

I'm using X-20A.  I've never seen any X-20 Tamiya enamel thinner so far.

Archangle571 wrote:

I don't even think X-20 is available in the US since Tamiya didn't export their enamel line here.  X-20A does have a distinctive smell though.  but it goes away quick as well unlike the MM enamel thinner.  with that said, i still have a good assortment of MM enamels really because of the color choices (for aircrafts).  i always find Tamiya to be a little darker in shades and i suk at mixing colors.

Yea thats true.  I have a bunch of MM enamels too.  I started out using them and doing aircraft.  I guess the thing that even got me thinking about switching to acrylics was when I'd finish an aircraft and go to clear coat it.  I couldn't find any dullcote at the time so I was shooting flat lacquer (I think it was flat lacquer).  Man did that stuff smell aweful.  I'd put a huge box fan right next to me and turn it on turbo mode and the stuff still stunk like crazy.  I started thinking there has to be something comparable but less invasive.  When I took the plunge and started doing some armor I picked up some Tamiya acrylics from my LHS and gave them a try.  I thought they would have very little smell and would be a less toxic type of paint to spray.  Well the paints seem to be that way but the thinner.... wow it stinks.

Btw I do wear a respirator.  I picked a 3M one up from my local DIY store.  It seemed like a decent one.  This gets me wondering though.  Are there any big differences between types of respirators or is there something specific that modelers should look for in a respirator?  Mine covers my mouth and nose and has twin cartridge filters that are replaceable. 

Phil_H wrote:

Are you using X-20 or X-20A? X-20 is an enamel thinner, whereas X-20A is the acrylic thinner. If you are using the enamel thinner, that may explain things.

I don't even think X-20 is available in the US since Tamiya didn't export their enamel line here.  X-20A does have a distinctive smell though.  but it goes away quick as well unlike the MM enamel thinner.  with that said, i still have a good assortment of MM enamels really because of the color choices (for aircrafts).  i always find Tamiya to be a little darker in shades and i suk at mixing colors.

H3nav wrote:

I was following this thread and noticed that Greg referenced a Tamiya paint mixing chart on the IPMS-Stockholm site. I went there but could not find the Tamiya mixing chart. Anybody have the link to that specific chart. With all the great things said about Tamiya, I may give them a try. But you know my luck with acrylics....   E

Here's the link : http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_fs.htm

I was following this thread and noticed that Greg referenced a Tamiya paint mixing chart on the IPMS-Stockholm site. I went there but could not find the Tamiya mixing chart. Anybody have the link to that specific chart. With all the great things said about Tamiya, I may give them a try. But you know my luck with acrylics....

E

Kumy wrote:

I use Tamiya X20 to clean my AB and so far no problems.  I mean I haven't noticed that its any more work to clean my AB with acrylics vs. MM enamels.  The funny thing is that one of the things I expected when I switched to acrylics is that the fumes wouldn't be as bad.  But X20 is about as wicked smelling as anything I've ever used.  I just wasn't expecting it to be that bad.

Are you using X-20 or X-20A? X-20 is an enamel thinner, whereas X-20A is the acrylic thinner. If you are using the enamel thinner, that may explain things.

plasticmod992 wrote:

For RAF Dark Green, (approx. FS34079) try XF-61.   For the RAF Medium Sea Gray, (approx. FS36270), try XF-53.

Kumy wrote:

Do you think Tamiya's range of paints is really limited?  Just wondering because I was using MM enamels but mainly doing aircraft.

Kumy wrote:

I use Tamiya X20 to clean my AB and so far no problems.  I mean I haven't noticed that its any more work to clean my AB with acrylics vs. MM enamels.  The funny thing is that one of the things I expected when I switched to acrylics is that the fumes wouldn't be as bad.  But X20 is about as wicked smelling as anything I've ever used.  I just wasn't expecting it to be that bad.

MikeV wrote:

They have Tamiya also but I am not going to mix my colors everytime to come up with the right one.

Do you think Tamiya's range of paints is really limited?  Just wondering because I was using MM enamels but mainly doing aircraft.  Then when I started devoting most of my time to armor I switched over to Tamiya acrylics.  I've never had the occasion to airbrush cars, sci-fi etc... and you know how most armor colors run in a basic range.  I just haven't run into a situation where I was mixing much unless it was for weathering or I wanted a specific tint of a color.

I use Tamiya X20 to clean my AB and so far no problems.  I mean I haven't noticed that its any more work to clean my AB with acrylics vs. MM enamels.  The funny thing is that one of the things I expected when I switched to acrylics is that the fumes wouldn't be as bad.  But X20 is about as wicked smelling as anything I've ever used.  I just wasn't expecting it to be that bad.

Triarius wrote:

tho9900 wrote: Darson from here on FSM was kind enough to come up with this, so any thanks (or complaints ) should go to him. A heap of thanks to Darson!!! And to you for posting it here!

Ditto

H3nav wrote:

Just like I said earlier, Tom is the acrylic master!   E

Eliott - I forgot to reply to this earlier.. .I'm not the acrylic master, I just play one on TV.. haha... Actually I am kinda stuck with them (thanks to something I picked up in the Middle East in 1990, it caused severe asthma that still pops its head up now and then) so I make the best and find every angle I can... after using Vallejo (et al) I no longer look on them as something to get around, but as what I prefer to paint with...

tho9900 wrote:

Darson from here on FSM was kind enough to come up with this, so any thanks (or complaints ) should go to him.

For RAF Dark Green, (approx. FS34079) try XF-61.  

For the RAF Medium Sea Gray, (approx. FS36270), try XF-53. 

*These are the closest matches without mixing. 

*For dead on accuracy, I usually keep "Testors Technical Manual" closeby with their color charts and compare them side-by side.  If I need to adjust, I dab a drop of each Tamiya on plain white paper next to the color I need.  I then lighten or darken the Tamiya colors with white or black.  The variations are so close, usually this isn't nessessary. 

For all of those who were asking for the conversion chart, it is here:

Vallejo Paint chart  

There's two tabs at the botom of the page, the one to the right gives a simpler view of normal names, and their vallejo equivalent.  (The regular names are to the left, look it up and scroll over all the way to the right for the Vallejo equiv)

Darson from here on FSM was kind enough to come up with this, so any thanks (or complaints ) should go to him.

If you are on dial up it would be worth your while to click on the link, wait while it downloads and print it... or if using IE right click, add to favorites, then go to the icon for the page and right click the icon, then click "Make Available offline" fom the menu, which will save it to your hard drive so you don't have to download it everytime. 

MikeV wrote:

So it is different from both Isopropyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol? Those are the two types I have here.

Route of Entry: Skin...............YES
Route of Entry: Ingestion...............YES
Route of Entry: Inhalation..............YES
Health Hazards - Acute and Chronic......
[INGEST] EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS MAY CAUSE BLINDNESS OR DEATH.

[INHALE] IRRITATE MUCOUS MEMBRANES
[EYE] VAPOR/LIQUID CAUSES IRRITATION, TEARING AND BURNING.

[SKIN] MAY BE ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN IN TOXIC OR LETHAL AMOUNTS.
[CHRONIC] MAY CAUSE SYSTEMIC POISONING, BRAIN DISORDERS, IMPAIRED VISION AND BLINDNESS. INHALATION MAY WORSEN CONDITIONS OF EMPHYSEMA OR BRONCHITIS. REPEATED SKIN CONTACT MAY CAUSE DERMAL IRRITATION, DRYNESS AND CRACKING.

Actually here is the skinny on Denatured alcohol:

Denatured alcohol is ethanol with added adulterants that make it useless for consumption as an intoxicating beverage by rendering it toxic or extremely distasteful to drink, but still useful for industrial processes or as a household chemical.

MikeV wrote:

Is denatured alcohol the same as ethyl rubbing alcohol?

MikeV,

They've proved to be very tough, provided they are allowed to cure for at least a few hours..minimum.  To combat this, I built a home-made drying oven, inspired by none other than Shep Payne, and his example from his book that he uses for artist oils.  Using the oven, it speeds the drying time down to an hour or so.  I've used Tamiya, Blue painter's, and regular masking tapes with great results.  But, if I'm telling the truth, they are not enamels, but the've held up comparitively well.  I take all the usual precautionary steps, such as cleaning the bare plastic with Denatured alcohol, then a tack cloth to prep before painting.  I've used Color of Eagels, Vallejo, Gunze, Acryl, Hannants Extracrylix, you name it.  I favor Tamiya on this wise- more for economics.  "Less bottles to buy, more colors I can mix with Tamiya." Not to mention all the minut color variations in-between without having to make another trip to the LHS.

A photo of my home-made drying oven.

Foam core forms the box with aluminum foil on the interior for heat reflection.  A hole was cut out of the top to facilitate the light fixture.  A 100-watt household bulb used here, will generate between 100 to 150 degrees.  Shown here, a resently finished F-14, airbrushed with Future is ready for decaling after 30 minutes in the oven.  1 hour prior, I had airbrushed the color coats with Tamiya paints.

zokissima wrote:

A little OT, but I was wondering if there would be any adverse effects from mixing Tamiya flat base with MM acryl?

No problems at all.  I have some MM Acryl Rust that was finishing with a bit of a sheen to it, so I mixed a batch of it with an extremely heavy percentage of Tamiya Flat Base and it works wonderfully.  As with a mix of Future and Flat Base, the Flat Base does settle over time, so I have to mix it prior to airbrushing, but other than that, no worries.