How much ventilation do you use? Oil thinner and model glue are killin' my allergies.

Gip, the "rule of thumb" about not smelling something may well be my responsibility. I've been telling people that for years, both in and out of print. It's a simple test that everyone can use, and error is on the side of caution, as you point out.

DHM wrote:

I agree with the above post, if you can smell it, you need more ventilation.  I'll add that even if you don't smell it, you may still need more ventilation.

Simply "smelling" organic vapors does not automatically infer exposure.  Most organic vapors have an odor threshold several orders of magnitude below the level where a dose/response relationship exists.  Granted, good ventilation is needed to prevent vapors from reaching concentrations where symptoms such as narcosis, nausea, headaches, and lightheadedness begin to present themselves.

Gip Winecoff

DHM wrote:

We all know that resin dust is bad for us.  Wouldn't resin fumes be just as bad or worse?

While the vapors from resin mixing and pouring can be similar in comparative toxicity to spray painting, resin dust generated from the cured product (e.g., sanding) is considered a nuisance particulate; it's no worse than the dust generated when you sweep out your garage. 

Gip Winecoff

We all know that resin dust is bad for us.  Wouldn't resin fumes be just as bad or worse?  I bring up that point because that's what acrylic paint is.  It's acrylic resin mixed with pigments and solevents.  It is by no means safe!  I agree with the above post, if you can smell it, you need more ventilation.  I'll add that even if you don't smell it, you may still need more ventilation.  If you can, I seriously recommend building a large paint booth like Bill's and putting in a shelf for your most commonly used tools/supplies.  Use the booth as your workbench.  I plan to do that some day.  That would pretty much solve the problem.  However, if you're like most people, you either don't have the space, money, or time.  If you can, move your workbench near a window and use a good fan to vent out fumes. 

The general rule of thumb is; if you can smell the paint fumes there's not enough ventilation in your spay/ work area.  If you can, invest in a spray booth or spray outside (weather permitting).  I found it especially challenging when I used enamels.  I now use acrylics, however I still utilize the spray booth and respirator.  While acrylics are generally safer than enamels, acrylics can still be iritating and mildly hazardous if you're careless.  With regard to thinner and such, try to open a window or limit your exposure by capping thinner and glue containers as soon as possible.  Also try to take frequent breaks, go outside ad get some fresh air.  This not only helps you avoid chemical fumes and possible allegries, but also to refresh your mind and body so you can come back to your project sharp and refocused.  You'll be less prone to rush your projects and helps you establish a routine while paint dries, liquid cement cures, and putty sets up, etc.  This will also allow you to even catch a much needed nap too!  LOL!   

Friends, 

In the bad old days I painted outside, or in the garage with all doors open, or in a room in the house with a candle burning :^) If it can combust other organic funkyness, no reason to think it wouldn't help with thinner and paint smells. A fan that EXTRACTS air from the work space is good, better if it is extracting on one side of you and your work, and the source of fresh air is on the other side of you. Having the fan blow on you and the work is only 2nd best.

However, I'd swear I bought my first bottle of Poly-S water based paint back in the 1970s. With the release of Testor's blue label nontoxic (though flamable!) liquid cement, I went completely non-toxic about 20 years ago. Mostly Polly Scale, though I still have some Poly S bottles. Gunze Sanyo is a favorite of modelers better than I at my local IPMS, and it brushes well, but it never really seems to dry, so I only use it when nobody else has the color I want. Tamiya is more an alcohol based than water based product, and while it too is nice to brush, sometimes, at the end of the day, Polly S is my favorite and I'm learning to love Testor's Model Master Acryl since it's a lot easier to find. Pactra's acrylic line was awful and so was the first generation of Model Master Acryl. But that's water under the bridge.

All of the non-toxic products spray well, though I'm no dual action airbrush wizard. My Badger 250 paint Sprayers were used to lay down Pactra, Testors, Humbroil, Bob Archer's bare metal product, Testor's Metalizer, etc, even some Floquil and laquers, before I started using the water based products. All water based products have surface tension issues compared to solvent based paints- a VERY dilute drop of dish detergent and water solution helps, but warm water washing of the assembly before painting and spraying light coats, even if you can see fish-eyes, is the secret.

A lovely property of the Poly S/Polly Scale products is that, when thinned to the consistancy of whole milk, your spray-coat may look a bit gloppy but it will dry thin and tight, with little build-up. I expect Model Master Acryl will do the same, though I do more brushing and less spraying since I'm a dad now and have proportionally even less time for hobbies...

 Gunze-Sanyo sprays beautifully and a top-coat of Future floor wax (Kleer in Europe) will seal and protect it. Gunze products are sensitive to Dulcoat/Glosscote laquers and any time I use them I put a barrier coat of Future on them.. I discovered this with an Airfix Vulcan- I Dulcoted it after putting on the decals and the clear decal film protected the Gunze-Sanyo paint, so it didn't change color like the bare paint did... :^( I haven't sprayed a lot of Tamiya jar paint so I'll confine myself to saying it seems a bit thick to start with, and I'm too cheap to get into a proprietary thinner system... (Whatever their thinner is, its NOT water)

The blue-label non-toxic liquid glue is not quite as 'hot' as orange label Testor's liquid, much less Uhu, but does the job quite well. If you spooge (that's a technical term) it onto thin styrene sheet- 0.010"/ 0.25mm, it'll melt it, just like you'd expect. I made some 1/72 cockpit bucket seats using thin sheet and this glue made them 'rubbery' until they dried.

Some time after my adoption of non-toxics, I learned to always top coat every injection molded clear part with Future as soon as I opened the box/bag/whatever. Just paint it on with a paint brush, straight or diluted up to 50% with water. Shake off the extra, let it dry in a dust-free place (15 minutes is all it takes). When its time to attach them, I use sandpaper or sanding sticks to expose bare styrene and the non-toxic liquid will bond bare, clear, plastic just as well as the colored stuff. The Future top coat keeps the rest of the clear styrene safe from the glue. 10 year olds who have never built a model have used this system and gotten perfectly clear parts firmly attached on their first try. If too much glue is applied, just soak it up with the edge of a facial tissue or other fine, thin, blotter.

I have had NO problem with non-toxic glue failing to hold parts- its a solvent, it works just like you would expect. Polly-S make a non-toxic liquid cement too, it works just fine but its rare.

Bill Abbott

IPMS 32909 

Hey Bruce, I should have added some helpful tips that I do besides running the above fan in a window.

I use mostly Testors enamels and their highly smelly cement, I have allergies (mostly hay-fever but other things bother me), so I had to workout a solution.

I work out of the little 1/4 oz paint bottles, screw the cap on when I'm finished with that color. I keep the glue covered until I need a dab or two. I use oderless thinner which I also poured into 1/4 oz bottles and baby food jars.

So basically the only fumes the fan has to extract are from the model itself or what ever I'm working with at the moment. I sit at the kitchen table right next to the fan (in front, off to the side of me) so the fumes are pulled away from me. It works out pretty good, during the summer we have the A/C running in the living room and the fan pulls cool air from behind me. Winter time the same thing except for warm air LOL. The fan has different speeds, if it starts smelling too much I just crank it up.

So now my headaches and sinuses aren't a problem and the wife doesn't mind because she can't smell anything from the living room. Oh, our kitchen and living room are really one big room divided only by a counter top.

Oh, and sorry for rambling off topic with the guys.

MortarMagnet wrote:

The Arch students I've know over the years have done 50/50.  I think they like the computer for the bulk of their work.  If I had been arch drawing for years and they wanted me to switch to CAD, I would feel the same as those guys.  Like you said, being able to change the drawing an infinite number of times is a definite plus.  I'd sure hate to draw a radial engine and its components on the board.

It took me awhile to get used to the change from board to CAD. The first few weeks of college I was lost in class, then all of a sudden it made sense. Since then I've been hired to do such things as help companies and Architects customize their installs and setup shop standards besides the usual drawings from time to time.

Bgrigg wrote:

jhande wrote: The little compressor under the spray booth in the pic, isn't the one making all the noise outside is it?  Heavens no! I used that compressor until I bought my garage style compressor. I've since rebuilt the old 150 and passed it, along with the old compressor along to a youngster I know who builds car models.

Ok, that's what I thought I remembered you saying, that you had a bigger compressor. Whew... thought my short term memory problem struck again LOL.
That was real nice of you to help out that youngster. I hope he's still building those car models.

The Arch students I've know over the years have done 50/50.  I think they like the computer for the bulk of their work.  If I had been arch drawing for years and they wanted me to switch to CAD, I would feel the same as those guys.  Like you said, being able to change the drawing an infinite number of times is a definite plus.  I'd sure hate to draw a radial engine and its components on the board.

jhande wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: Did manage to poke a hole through the wall for the booth vent, as well as adjacent hole for the airhose and power for the comressor. Ended up buiding another box for the compressor to make it more water proof, and have installed that on the outside wall. This is why moving it around would have been a problem: BIG booth LOL Glad to hear you accomplished your task Bill.  WOW that's a big spray booth! I better not show my wife, she'll want one for her canvas and T-shirt painting. The little compressor under the spray booth in the pic, isn't the one making all the noise outside is it?

Heavens no! A friend gave me a 20 yr old Badger 150 and that little compressor. I've ended up buying a new 150 as the old one needed to be rebuilt. I used that compressor until I bought my garage style compressor. I've since rebuilt the old 150 and passed it, along with the old compressor along to a youngster I know who builds car models. His mother refused to let him use rattle cans (granola eating vegetarian who despises propellent cans, don't even get me started! LOL!!) and he was trying to brush paint cars, which was really difficult, as we all know.

Bgrigg wrote:

Did manage to poke a hole through the wall for the booth vent, as well as adjacent hole for the airhose and power for the comressor. Ended up buiding another box for the compressor to make it more water proof, and have installed that on the outside wall. This is why moving it around would have been a problem: BIG booth LOL

Glad to hear you accomplished your task Bill. 

WOW that's a big spray booth!
I better not show my wife, she'll want one for her canvas and T-shirt painting.

The little compressor under the spray booth in the pic, isn't the one making all the noise outside is it? 

MortarMagnet wrote:

You know they still make us learn board drafting.  I have a pile of tools that no one wants... or needs.  Although I do prefer board drafting, I can't imagine any time that I will actually do it.  I just think it's more fun, it's hands on.

I still prefer board drafting also, maybe because I learned before the advent of the PC & CAD? I do small projects from time to time still on the board, but I use CAD for the larger projects since they might entail numerous changes. I've worked with a few Architects back in CT that only drew on the board. I had to help them make the switch to CAD which they wheren't very keen on doing.

As the son of a man who owned a home.  I can understand the burden of ownership.  One day I came home from job1 to get cleaned up to go to job2.  I entered the front door and hear rushing water.  The pipe leading from the well to the water softener had broke, and the well pump had been pumping water into the house for what I estimated at six hours.  What a fun day.

Sorry for the .

One of the benefits of being an owner. Of course I've been battling a stopped drain all day too. It balances out!

jhande wrote:

LOL Bill, I still have all my old "by hand" drafting things too.

You know they still make us learn board drafting.  I have a pile of tools that no one wants... or needs.  Although I do prefer board drafting, I can't imagine any time that I will actually do it.  I just think it's more fun, it's hands on. 

I'm pretty sure they'd take my security deposit if I started drilling holes through walls.  I have used spray cans in the bathroom... with the fan on... take a breath, dive in, spray, leave.  Over-spray wipes right off the floor... and walls.... and toilet.

Just got back online after having the internet mucked up for 2 days. Did manage to poke a hole through the wall for the booth vent, as well as adjacent hole for the airhose and power for the comressor. Ended up buiding another box for the compressor to make it more water proof, and have installed that on the outside wall. It's a nice install, flick one switch to turn on the compressor, lights and exhaust fan. Spray booth is now in the same room as the build table (and computer for that matter), and my wife won't have to put up with the booth occupying space in the kitchen this winter. wo0T!

This is why moving it around would have been a problem:



Since that picture was taken, I've installed clear acrylic doors and attached a moisture trap/regulator to the inside where I can adjust the pressure "on the fly". There is also a turntable. I'm rebuilding the interior with a better filter system, and putting in some shelves for thinners and such. No it's not pristine white anymore!

Hi, Bruce.  Just a couple points, if I may:

1.  As modelers, our hobby (at least for many) usually relegates us to some back room or closet somewhere.  If possible, move your modeling bench to an area that is as open as possible, and without a lot of dead space where there is no airflow.

2. Put a fan behind you and off to one side.  This will help ensure the dispersal of vapors away from your breathing zone.  Make sure that back- or cross-drafted air isn't "rebounding" and re-entering your breathing zone.  Remember that organic vapors are heavier than air, and will fall as liquids evaporate.  Having airflow aimed three feet above your desktop is fruitless.  Consider modeling with a window open, in addition to using a fan.

3. If glues are irritating your throat, try a couple common sense things in addition to the above:

   a. Substitute glues. There are liquid glues that evaporate faster than others.  Some have more toxic solvents, as well, like methylene chloride.  My own opinion is to stay away from those substances.  I use both Testors liquid cement, and Tamiya extra thin (That is not an endorsement.), with Testors being potentially the least toxic.

  b.  Use a small paint brush (1/0 or smaller), or a Touch-N-Flow applicator for glue.  The less material you use, the less evaporates, and that lessens your exposure.

   c.  If you're anything like me, you have to be right on top of your kit to see where the glue is going.  If possible, back off while applying glue, or painting, or whatever.  And keep the lid on the glue, paint, etc. when you're not using it. Air blowing across an open bottle of glue, thinner or paint will only hasten its evaporation.

4.  If you're sneezing, and sinuses are running you could simply be having a bout of hay fever--or you've become sensitized to something.  Be careful.  One of the hazards associated with the use of cyanoacrylate adhesives ("super glue"), for example, is a sensitization reaction.  Once sensitized, always sensitized; and this type of reaction can occur tomorrow, or 40 years or more after initial use. If you start noticing any swelling, difficulty breathing, etc., get yourself to a doctor pronto.  You should get rid of your super glues, or whatever else is causing the reaction.  There's simply too much risk to keep using whatever's causing you to be sensitized.

5.  Where are you placing your rags, paper towels, etc. as you use them and when you are finished? Got a trash can between you legs?  Move it away from where you're sitting, and get any rags, towels, etc. out of direct airflow.

I could probably go on and on, but you get the idea, I'm sure.  I don't know what your setup is ,but a few common sense approaches can help prevent a lot of problems.  Hope this helps you some.

Gip Winecoff

LOL Bill, I still have all my old "by hand" drafting things too. Some are from my Great Uncle and really old (older than me) and I'll never part with them. Although the table is utilized for other things. 

Too bad you couldn't make you booth mobile. That way you can put it on the table, vent out the window, move it when done.

It's only an 1 1/2" stucco, better than a 10" concrete foundation wall. 

Nice sharp cold chisel to outline the cut, a masonry drill bit (drill hammer be nice), and hammer. Oh yeah... the important tool, a few cold ones.

Myself, I would have gone the long and easy route.

Good luck, I don't envy you hehe. 

You're right! It's an Arts & Crafting table now, though we still have the articulated arm and all the various scale rulers. Right now it's a catch all for all sorts of junk.

I've decided to go with the short and difficult route. I hate drilling through concrete!

I use a fan similar to this year round -





Bill, that drafting table hasn't turned into an arts & craft or hobby table yet?
Mine has been obsolete for years, what with AutoCAD. 

Good ventilation is a great thing! Different people are more or less sensitive to glues/paints/solvents than others, but no matter how sensitive you feel, it's still not great to breathe a lot of any of it.

I've got a homemade paint booth that has a 375cfm fan that exhausts through an 8" sheet metal exhaust that only has to run about 6' to the outside. When I'm working I just remove the filter and that leaves just the wire mesh that's across the opening that keeps filters from getting sucked inside. It's close enough that I don't get a lot of odors from anything. It helps a lot that I'm in a nice size area, but it's great to have something to move air across the work area.

The next thing I need to tackle is some glasses/goggles that will fit while I'm wearing a respirator so that I can move in real close when trying to airbrush tiny stuff.

No, no, I don't get headaches (well, other than the first one! I learn FAST!!), what I meant to say is my sinuses have never reacted as Bruce described!

And I'm working on the spray booth today. I'm trying to decide whether I punch a hole through the wall for a short run (< 3') with 3 bends or a longer run (> 6') with 4 bends. The short run requires busting through 1 1/2" of concrete stucco, and of course the corresponding hole in the wall. The longer run means reduced effieciency, but I can vent out the window. I already have a board and flap from another window that I can just trim down to fit the new install.

If I had my way, I could place the spray booth in such a way that I could acheive the short run through the window, but my wife has her drafting table in front of the window. Yes she has a say, and she's said it!

Bill, if I were you, I'd make that spraybooth a Number 1 priority! You shouldn't be breathing enough of anything to give you a headache!

Bruce, try searching the forums on "spray booth" or "spraybooth"—this has been covered pretty thoroughly in at least one recent thread.

Until you get a spraybooth, a large box fan in the window will help—until the weather gets cold.

Some of what us modelers use is just out and out dangerous. The glues are highly fragrant solvents that are guaranteed to kill brain cells. Most of them work by chemically melting styrene, so you can imagine that they're not so good on our sinuses! Paints, enamels especially and their related thinners, are also not so great for us to inhale. For those of us who use acrylics thinking their less toxic, think again! Even if the paints were made out of benign materials (which they aren't!), breathing dried bits of plastic (which is what acrylic paint is!) is not conducive to proper respiratory health.

I build in a 10x12 room and normally it doesn't bother me. I keep the lids on my glues, and I take many breaks. When it gets bad I open the window. Soon I will have my spraybooth in my build room and have it properly vented outside. I'll be able to get airflow that way.

Most of the time the only reaction I get is headaches, not sinuses. Sounds like you may have allergic reactions to some of the substances you use.

Try and isolate which ones cause what and take notes. You may be able to find alternate methods and materials. Modeling shouldn't hurt anything but the pocketbook!