Differences between 3 types of thinners??

This has been an interesting subject! I must admit I love watching two people with knowledge and experience slug it out in a wordfest!

Ross, I look forward to reading your upcoming article.

Klaus, I hope you continue to post, and that whatever resolve you and Ross come to that it eventually finds its way onto these forums!

I'll stick with my colored acrylic additives, but will continue to call it paint, somehow additizing the house just sounds wrong!

FWIW I thought Lacquers were a form of varnish...

Ross,

First, please accept my apology for the error in typing your name. No disrespect meant, it was simply a typing error. Again, my apologies.

I read your reply several times before responding. That's what lead me to post a reply. And while you question my information sources, I question yours as well.  Feel free to email me to discuss further. I'm curious about where you think I get my information, and about your background as well.

There is quite a bit of legitimate information on the web (and much not so legitimate), but much of my knowledge comes not only from references before the web existed, but also hands-on experience.  I've spent many hours in demo labs programming and testing spray finishing applications, and in plants trouble shooting finish problems. In many cases I was working with techs from the various paint manufacturers to determine cause and corrective action. I also worked with the gentleman that wrote the book Industrial Paint Finishing Techniques and Processes, now out of print. It was a very detailed look at not only processes but paint types and chemistry as well, including many of the paints in use today. It proved to be a valuable tool in terms of the information provided.

I look forward to reading your article in FSM.

Klaus

Klaus, you might try reading my reply a little more carefully—at least get my name right. And I'm sorry, but you are still not correct. For one thing, "enamel" is also an imprecise term, borrowed from another technology altogether. I think I know how you got your misinformation, but there isn't room or need to go into that here.

For those who want a better understanding of coatings technology, wait for my forthcoming article in a future issue of FSM.

For a "bare bones" insight into a few of the different types of "paint," see here. This doesn't even scratch the surface of the complexity, or include hobby paints, which are a small but highly specialized branch. But it will give you an idea.

Ok, thanks for your help Ed.

Funny, cause I had already bought the 3 types of thinners...and thats what prompted the question. When I went to the store, since I wasnt too sure which one to get...I got all 3. They are small cans, maybe a pint. As you say I will experiment with them. I just wasnt sure if I should not use one at all for thinning, or if one was better. But I catch your drift.

So again, thanks for the info.

I don't know why.  Perhaps it is what I have gotten used to.  I build mostly resin ships and perhaps I like the slightly hotter solvent which IMO helps the paint adhere to the resin better, and it dries quicker.  I am able to spray straight lacquer thinner onto raw styrene without it crazing.   When I started and was heavy handed  - that was not always the case.

IIRC, I thought that the mineral spirits and paint thinners were a bit "oily" and took longer to dry.  Personal opinion.

Go buy a quart of lacquer thinner and a quart of either mineral spirits or paint thinner and try how each react.   Experiment - what functions best for you.  The lacquer thinner will be used to clean the airbrush -- it will not be asted.   The mineral spirits can be used to clean hand brushes -- it will not go to waste.  When you have determined your favorite - buy a gallon and pour into the quart can for ready use.   I store my bulk can in the garage (maybe not the best place in the Texas heat, but it is out of the house)

EdGrune wrote:

xierramilan wrote: I wasnt sure which of the hardware store bought thinners should be use for airbrushing my enamels. But it seems like mineral spirits might be the way to go. I didnt want to have to spend the money for tiny bottles of Testors airbrush thinner if it was found in a bigger jug in the hardware store. I just wasnt sure which of the 3 it was closest too. Thanks for all your help everyone....and let the debate continue!!!! I have had good success airbrushing enamels, both ModelMaster and Colourcoats, using plain old Crown Laquer Thinner from the local Lowes both as a thinner [reducer] and for cleaning up the airbrush afterward.   Try it out,  but first experiment on a scrap kit to verify suitability and mixing ratios. I buy in gallon cans, but it is available in quarts and I have seen it in pint cans.   At 12 dollar a gallon it is much less expensive than buying the same stuff at 5 bucks for a couple ounces with a model manufacture's logo on it.  Run the numbers for yourself.  (hint 1 US Gallon = 128 fl oz)

Thats exactly what I was trying to get at. Cause yes...making trips to the local hobby lobby for little bottles of Testor/Model master thinners was getting old and too pricey!!! But then when I went to lowes and saw 3 types of thinners......I was like HOLY PAINT THINNERS BATMAN!!! But now I have more of a clue.

But Ed, why do you prefer laquer thinner to thin your paints that mineral spirits or the can marked "Paint thinner" if in its description it says for enamels? Is it because the Lacquer thinner is more of a universal thing, thinner and good to clean the AB, therefore you dont have to buy as much product?

xierramilan wrote:

I wasnt sure which of the hardware store bought thinners should be use for airbrushing my enamels. But it seems like mineral spirits might be the way to go. I didnt want to have to spend the money for tiny bottles of Testors airbrush thinner if it was found in a bigger jug in the hardware store. I just wasnt sure which of the 3 it was closest too. Thanks for all your help everyone....and let the debate continue!!!!

I have had good success airbrushing enamels, both ModelMaster and Colourcoats, using plain old Crown Laquer Thinner from the local Lowes both as a thinner [reducer] and for cleaning up the airbrush afterward.  

Try it out,  but first experiment on a scrap kit to verify suitability and mixing ratios.

I buy in gallon cans, but it is available in quarts and I have seen it in pint cans.   At 12 dollar a gallon it is much less expensive than buying the same stuff at 5 bucks for a couple ounces with a model manufacture's logo on it. 

Run the numbers for yourself.  (hint 1 US Gallon = 128 fl oz)

MikeV wrote:

xierramilan wrote: Greetings all. I've been reading lots of post on how to clean airbrushes and such. When I went to buy thinners...at the hardware supply I saw "Lacquer Thinner", "Mineral Spirits", and "Paint Thinner". What is the difference between the 3? As the descriptions on the cans were almost Identical. They all said excellent thinners, excellent brush cleaners etc. What are the differences? And which of these 3 if any, can be used to thin paints that will be sprayed though the AB? Paint thinner and Mineral Spirits may very well be the same thing, it depends on the manufacturer. I would buy Mineral spirits to thin enamels and use lacquer thinner to clean the airbrush and enamel paints. Some people like Testors airbrush thinner and I have had good luck with it also, but I feel it is nothing more than good quality mineral spirits such as those you can find in a paint store by the gallon for a lot less in the long run. Greg (Plasticmod992) had good sucess with thinning enamels using turpentine replacement thinner I believe and maybe he could add something.

I wasnt sure which of the hardware store bought thinners should be use for airbrushing my enamels. But it seems like mineral spirits might be the way to go. I didnt want to have to spend the money for tiny bottles of Testors airbrush thinner if it was found in a bigger jug in the hardware store. I just wasnt sure which of the 3 it was closest too. Thanks for all your help everyone....and let the debate continue!!!!

MikeV wrote:

Klaus, If there are only two then where do urethanes come in?  Are they enamels?

Yes, they are enamels.

xierramilan wrote:

Greetings all. I've been reading lots of post on how to clean airbrushes and such. When I went to buy thinners...at the hardware supply I saw "Lacquer Thinner", "Mineral Spirits", and "Paint Thinner". What is the difference between the 3? As the descriptions on the cans were almost Identical. They all said excellent thinners, excellent brush cleaners etc. What are the differences? And which of these 3 if any, can be used to thin paints that will be sprayed though the AB?

Paint thinner and Mineral Spirits may very well be the same thing, it depends on the manufacturer.

I would buy Mineral spirits to thin enamels and use lacquer thinner to clean the airbrush and enamel paints.

Some people like Testors airbrush thinner and I have had good luck with it also, but I feel it is nothing more than good quality mineral spirits such as those you can find in a paint store by the gallon for a lot less in the long run.

Greg (Plasticmod992) had good sucess with thinning enamels using turpentine replacement thinner I believe and maybe he could add something.  

Ok, where is Gip he will settle this.

Yoohoo Gip!

Klaus,

If there are only two then where do urethanes come in? 

Are they enamels?  

Russ,

I hate to disagree, but I stand by my statement - there are only 2 paint or coating (if you prefer) types: lacquer and enamel, and it's based on the how a particular resin drys or cures, nothing else. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about paint types inside or outside the paint industry, it's all the same. I think we need to get rid of the concept that paints are different inside and outside of the industry, especially when so many modelers use automotive paints that come in the same variety of flavors, i.e., lacquer, enamel, acrylic lacquer, acrylic enamel... It can lead to a great deal of confusion. After all, where do paints come from? The paint industry. They're all subject to the same or similar development. And I'm not sure about the point you're trying to make by saying that "lacquer is not paint", but please check the definition of the word. It's accepted in the industry (and by everyone I know) that if we're talking about paint, lacquer is paint (please check the definition of "paint" as well).

Regarding acrylic's, even though the term "acrylic" has become generic outside the paint industry, it doesn't change the fact that it's still considered an additive that's been used since, IIRC, the 1950's. It's nothing new outside of the hobby and I know of no one that considers it "specialized". Acrylics are more common now than ever. As with any paints, care should be taken when adding solvents to ensure compatibility.

As to the use of universal solvents, you certainly can use hardware store lacquer thinners, mineral spirts, and alcohols for thinning, but be careful. The results may not meet your expectations (if they do great!). The only thing I use hardware store solvents for is cleaning. Solvents for thinning or reducing paints come from a paint jobber, and the results can be significant.

Finally, you state that, "...enamels and acrylics, which form coatings by polymerization processes..." - what about acrylic lacquers? Not all coatings that contain an acrylic component are enamels. Can you identify which hobby paints are acrylic enamels and which are acrylic lacquers? Not always. If anyone read that statement closely, they would be lead to believe that all acrylic paints are enamels. This is a good example of a statement that can lead to confusion.

I've tried to help people with paint problems by understanding the realities of paint based on facts. I've worked with paint application for many years, and side-by-side with reps from paint manufacturers. I do know something about paint, that being, hobby and non-hobby paints are still paints. Same rules apply.

Klaus

Klaus Raddatz said: "(acrylic isn't a paint type, it's only an additive)."

That is not correct. The tern "acrylic" has become a generic term, outside the paint industry, for all types of paint not based on older, more traditional enamel paints and lacquers. Strictly speaking, lacquers are not paints.

Acrylics are a complex family of coatings that incorporate some form of acrylic resin as the primary binder. As stated, they may use water as a primary solvent, or alcohols, or combinations of alcohols with or without water. There is no universal solvent for acrylic paints, although most may be cleaned from brushes and equipment with soap and water before the coating has cured. For cured paint, Windex™ or Simple Green™ appear to be the most effective. For thinning, the manufacturer's recommendations are the safest course. For reduction for spraying, water or one of the common alcohols often work well, but which works varies with the brand of paint, and sometimes even within the brand.

Enamels can almost always be thinned or reduced with mineral spirits or paint thinner. "Paint thinner" is usually just a less pure form of mineral spirits.

Lacquer thinner is usually a blend of solvents intended to be a universal solvent for all lacquers. Unlike enamels and acrylics, which form coatings by polymerization processes, lacquers form coatings only by evaporation of the solvent—paints cure, lacquers dry. Lacquer thinner can often be used for clean-up of enamels, sometimes even when they are cured, but should be avoided for thinning or reducing as one or more of its components may be incompatible with the binder in the enamel.

There are also hybrid coatings, sold as "enamel lacquers" and even "acrylic lacquers." These specialized coatings should only be thinned or reduced according to the manufacturer's directions. 

I don't have the MSDS for the Model Master thinner (I'll request it tomorrow), only #1156 Brush Cleaner and #1789 Air Brush Thinner, so I can't do a direct comparison, but brush cleaners and thinners (whether brush or spray) are generally different.

Cleaners are only concerned with disolving the binders (or resins as they're sometime called) in the paint, to enable cleaning of the brush. Thinners/reducers for paint application are a little more complex. They not only have to keep the binder in a liquid state, but also ensure the binder dries correctly.  There are typically several different solvents chosen for a thinner or reducer based on the binder used, all with different boiling points. Without going in to too much detail, the idea is have the low boilers flash off to prevent the paint from running immediately after it's applied. The remaining solvents dry off more slowly to allow the paint to flow out and dry without creating surface tensions that cause problems later.

I'll request the MSDS for the Model Master product (I thought I had it) and confirm solvent content.

Klaus

Thanks for your answer Klaus.

 Here is one more question then...say you go to a hobby shop, and they are selling little bottles of Testor "brush cleaner", or they are selling Model Master "Thinner for enamels"...are those 2 bottles the same thing?

There are essentially 2 types of paint: lacquer and enamel (acrylic isn't a paint type, it's only an additive). The type of paint you're trying to thin (lacquers) or reduce (enamels) dictates which solvent is used. Lacquer thinner generally is used only with lacquer paints although some modelers have used it successfully with enamels. Mineral spirits and the solvent labeled "paint thinner" are generally used to thin (correct terminology is reduce) enamels. When it comes to paints labeled "acrylic", you'll need to be careful. Some of these are water borne and use alcohol as a primary solvent.

When in doubt, use the solvent recommended by the paint manufacturer. If that's not an option, experiment on scrap to determine solvent/paint compatibility.

HTH, Klaus