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Newbie Questions (Long...)

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Newbie Questions (Long...)
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 18, 2003 12:41 AM
Hey guys, let me start off by saying that I've already learned alot by reading posts from the last 10 pages or so - great forum!

As for me, the last time I built was models was like ~20 years ago... and my painting experience was basically crack open a bottle of Testor's paint, dip brush, and voila! Lumpy, not quite like the nice pics on the box... (I've always wondered why...)

For no apparent reason whatsoever, I purchased a few models and a Badger airbrush (single action)... I now I think I'm ready to brave the model world again... at least I was until I read all the complexities of this hobby... as stated at the beginning of this soon to be "novel of questions", I've learned quite a bit reading, but hopping on a bike without training wheels isn't exactly helpful either, so here goes my list of questions (super basic/newbie compared to other Q/A's that I've read, so please bear with me!)

1. Brush question: I tried to paint a "beater" model with paint mixed with thinner (Testors, paint to thinner ratios: 1:1, 2:1), single coat - it didn't look like the paint stuck very well - the pigment was all uneven, looked like the mixture was too watery, runny even (does that make sense?). Is it suppose to be like that? if so, how many coats do I put on? Will additional coats give it a even color when done? I ask about brush painting for the smaller things, like pilots, wheels, etc. - or do you hardcore enthusiasts just use the airbrush for everything?

2. Airbrush primer layer - does it have to be a different color than the final coat? I know cars have a different color, but I never understood why? Is there a special primer paint, or any other color will do? I've read about using lighter/darker colors as a primer in one of the other posts already, but never fully understood the need of a primer layer.

3. Airbrush ventilation - if I do the spraying in a open area (eg. backyard) - do I still need a booth? A respirator? Or is that only for enclosed areas, like indoors? I was planning on using one of those simple masks that you get at Home Depot for $2 in the back yard...

4. Having gone on a purchasing frenzy for airbrush and models, I just spent approx. $400+; but didn't get a compressor... (stupid, stupid me). I actually cancelled (replaced) two bottles of that canned propellant stuff from my recent order of kits after reading this forum and decided to look for a compressor - any recommendations of a cheap/discounted place to get compressor, water trap, regulator? Have to get it ASAP before CC bill arrives and girlfriend decides to hurt me...

5. Painting (again) - one of the things I remember is that if I apply another layer of (unthinned) paint over an existing layer of (again, stupid me, unthinned) paint, it seems that the previous layer gets "wet" again and causes one huge sticky mess... is that normal? Or will that problem go away if I let the first lay dry for over 24hrs? (Testor's little bottles)

6. Painting - Testor's paint + Testor's plastic cement = dissolved paint + sticky mess. Again, is that just me? What happens if you have to glue something after painting it (and the glue touches the paint)?

7. Glue suggestions - I used the same Testor's plastic cement as I did 20 years ago, so don't know of any better solutions. The one thing that used to******me off was the "strings" of 1/2 dried glue sticking to my fingers, the model, and everything in between (also happend when I tried to use a toothpick). Is there a better way? A better glue?

8. Putty - again, Testor's putty (it was next to the Testor's glue) - doesn't seem to work very well... but then again, I'm not too bright when it comes to models apparently... suggestions? I'd apply a stream of that milky white stuff along the seam (making sure the gaps are filled), then sand down leftovers... but it just doesn't seem right somehow...

9. Thinner - apparently, this is used for everything! I found a large bottle of this stuff on a recent expedition to the hobby store only to find that there's one labeled for airbrushes, another for regular use... what, why, and how???

10. Paint (yet again) - how do I know when a paint is properly mixed with thinner? Somebody posted that they'd wait for 3 drops, any more/less would call for more/less thinner.

11. Model Master enamels ok? I thought they were better that the Testors ones on a recent test run on a poor, butchered P47 Thunderbolt that I've been experimenting with. By the way, I only have Testor's thinner - that should work ok with the MM paints right?

12. Strain through a nylon before using paint - I thought the thinner was used to break up/thin out the clumps already?

13. Any tips on the more "detailed" items? I was trying to paint the wheels on the landing gear, and was very unsuccessful in painting the rim of the wheel a different color that the wheel (white hub, black wheel) - and whenever the white came in contact with the black... sticky, grey mess. I actually used thinner to clean off the paint (2x in 2 attempts), and am now considering "priming" the whole wheel in white, then attempt to paint the wheels black with a brush afterwards.

14. Clear plastics - sometimes I find that when I cut off a clear piece from the moldings (canopy, windshield, etc.), it leaves a "translucent" edge when the joint was - is this normal?

15. "Finish' - whats that? Same as clear coat?

16. Camo - scares the hell outta me... I can't even paint an even coat of 1 color, much less various camo designs. I know most modelists strive for "authentic accuracy", but for me, I just want to be able to create a good looking coat for now - even if it means painting a WWII fighter in either all Navy Blue or Chrome for now even though its suppose to have greys, browns, blues, and greens for camo. Any tips for creating realistic camo patterns?

(If you're still with me...) Thanks for reading my novel. Feel free to answer as few or as many questions as you can... any help (esp. with the painting parts) would be helpful!

Thanks in advance!
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posted by maddafinga on Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:44 AM
1. I'm still pretty new, I've only built 3 models, but I've learned tons since coming here. I do airbrush just about everything. I feel like brush painting covers up details. I do use unthinned paints by brush to fill small gaps sometimes though. To paint a small piece, I gather all the finished parts that to be painted the same color together, then roll a long strip of masking tape into a loop and stick it down. I stick all the parts to this and then paint them all at once. The tape keeps them from blowing away.

2. Airbrush primer, you want to put a primer coat down after you've done all your glueing and filling. The primer will let you see places where you need more work, if it's a different color than your final coat, it helps you to judge how well your paint is covering. I think priming is more important for brush painting than it is for airbrushing. Also, you did wash the parts off with dish soap before painting them right? The mold release can keep the paint from bonding that well.

3. Styrene would probably be the best person to answer that question. I wouldn't use anything if I was spraying outside, but I would probably be wrong.

4. You can get good compressor setups at Home Depot or Wally World, just about any place that sells good amounts of hardware.

5. Always! let your paint dry for a good 24 hours before trying to re-coat. Once again, airbrushing is better than brush.

6. Glue before you paint, let your glue cure for a while, some give it 24 hours, I give it just a few. Also, don't get tube cement, get the Testors stuff in the black container. You also may want to try liquid cement like Tenax, or Tamaya's cement. You also might want both thick and thin cyanoacrylate glue (superglue). It glues nicely, and can be used to fill gaps.

8. Apply putty with an instrument, be it a sanded toothpick or whatever, not straight from the tube. I use Squadron't white putty, but I have heard good thing about Testors as well. Instead of sanding it, dampen a q-tip with nail polish remover, the acetone type and smooth the putty before it fully dries. It may take a couple of applications, but it's the easiest and best way.

9. Thin to the consistancy of skim milk, for airbrushing. I use the manufacturers thinner to paint with, but hardware store thinner to clean up. Testors and ModelMaster are the same. Thinner does thin the paint, but it won't dissolve dried clumps that find their way from the rim of the bottle into the bottom of it.

13. Masking is the key here. Paint the hub white, let it dry 24 hours, mask it off very carefully with tape, spray the black. Careful masking will be a tremendous help to you down the road.

14. This is normal, but you should still sand it down with fine grade paper or stick or whatever. Also, try dipping your canopy in Future and touching it to a paper towel at the lower corner a few times to get the excess. Canopys look a hundred times better this way. Future is acryllic floor coating. It's cheap, smells good, and works fantastically. You'll find more and more uses for it.

Hope this helps, now I gotta run to work.


madda
Madda Trifles make perfection, but perfection is no trifle. -- Leonardo Da Vinci Tact is for those who lack the wit for sarcasm.--maddafinga
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by shermanfreak on Thursday, September 18, 2003 11:18 AM
Welcome to FSM Jon. I saw your post last night but decided that sleep was a necessity before tackling it. So I'll do my best to answer whatever I can.

1. For brushing paint I would not and do not thin it in any way. I use it straight from the bottle. I can't think of any "hardcore" modellers that would use their airbrush for fine detail work.

2. Primer coats do a couple of things for you. First off they give a consistent base coat to work off of. I rarely use a primer but on the odd occasion will depending on the different materials that I have used in the model build. Second it allows you to see any errors in the build that sometimes don't show up until the first coat is on.

3. Ventilation is just that. If you are painting outside (unless you standing downwid when working), I wouldn't worry about. But inside a good respirator is advised. unfortunatley the cheap ones don't quite cut it.

4. Canned propellent sucks .... check out your local hardware store for a small industrial style compressor. You should be able to get one for around $100 U.S. Make sure that it has a regulator and a moisture trap on it. If not, get those items too.

5. The original paint needs to dry, sometimes over 24 hours. But now that you've mentioned Testor's little bottles, ewwwww. Go for their better line of Model Master or Tamiya Acrylics, you'll notice a great improvement right off the bat. The quality of paint makes a huge difference!

6. Only answer to this is, one must be careful when trying to glue parts together, painted or unpainted. I answer this more in your glue question.

7. Many better glues now (all better than Testor's Tube Glue). CA glue (like crazy glue) works great with brass and resin parts (I actually use this for all applications). Testor's liquid glue is good and so is Tenax-7. Remember with all of these glues a little oges a long way.

8. Testor's putty is great for making mud. Try Squadron White Putty or Tamiya putty.

9. Some thinners only work well with the paint and application they are desigend for. If you go with acrylics paints (such as Tamiya), some can be thinned with water if they need thinning at all. Isopropyl Alcohol also works good with acrylics. Each line of paint has it's own thinners too, until you decide which is this best, stay with their thinners.

10. General rule of thumb is the consistency of milk. But if you are using those little Testor's bottles, Good Luck!!!

11. MM Enamels are indeed better than the little Testors Bottles. You should be able to buy a bottle of thinner that is MM specific.

12. Strain through a nylon ..... your girl isn't going to like this one!!!!

13. Patience ... you have to wait until the first coat is dry.

14. Trim a little further back and sand the little tip off.

15. Finish coat is just that .... either a gloss cote or a dull cote, depending on what is called for.

16. Camo just takes a bit of practice. Start simple with a 2 tone camo with soft edges and work your way up from there.

pphhhewwww .... done.

Enjoy the hobby Jon, that's what it's all about.
Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:09 PM
Thanks guys! I'm going to stop by the hobby store on saturday and pick up some more MM paint, Squadron White or Tamiya putty, better glue, and hopefully, a compressor. Let the learning process/experimentation begin!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 19, 2003 12:07 PM
Jon -
Welcome back to the hobby. I am much like you in that it was a long time from my youth building models to the present day. My particular preference is building 1/24 NASCAR models, but maybe I can also help you with a few tips. First, I agree with the responses that have been posted so far, especially the patience thing! For doing your fine detail work, you may want to invest in a magnifying lamp ( especially if your eyes are getting as old as mine! ). The other things that I have found to be indispensable to painting fine details on my models are gel pens. They are much easier to handle than brushes, and the opportunities they present to add very small details give your models a more "complete" or "finished" look. When using them, treat them like paint in that you need to give the gel ink ample time to dry. I also posted a tip in the Techniques area about adding BB's to your paint bottles. The BB's act like a rattle can in allowing you to get a better mix between your binder and pigment. I have used the Daisy steel BB's for a little over a year, and have had no bad reactions with any of the paints I use, i.e., Testors, Model Master, Pactra, Tamiya, Boyd's, Racing Colors, or even the Duplicolor Automobile Lacquers. Sorry for the response for being so long; I hope I've maybe been able to help you a little. Again, welcome and if I or anyone else on the forum can be of assistance, just give a shout.
lowdog Cool [8D]
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Saturday, September 20, 2003 1:12 PM
Jon,
Welcome to the forum.
3. As far as respirators and booths go, try a search for "respirators" and one for "booths". These things have been discussed fairly thoroughly. The short of it, though, is this: If you are spraying outside, you should not need anything, since natural air is completely diluting whatever concentrations of vapors you are generating. All bets are off, however, when spraying indoors in a relatively unventilated area. Don't spend $2 for a respirator--it's the wrong kind. What you need will run you about $20 and consists of a rubber/silicone mask, 2 organic vapor cartridges, and paint prefilters that go over top of the cartridges. A respirator is one of the best and cheapest ways to protect yourelf indoors when painting; just get the right one.
All the other guys have anwered your questions more adequately than I could, so I will stop with just hitting #3. Hope this helps you.
Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 22, 2003 12:29 AM
Thanks guys - went out this weekend and picked up some additional supplies as recommended, now just shopping for a compressor... can't wait to start! So far, the biggest obstacle seems to be patience... Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 22, 2003 1:14 AM
Sorry, another question...

After additional reading on the forums, it seems as if there's been a long debate on "Enamels" vs. "Acrylics"... I'm just curious, aside from the "fumes" (enamels) and color matches (enamels) vs. the "easy peel off" coats (acrylics) - is there any other key factors besides preferences?

After reading the posts, I'm actually considering on replacing my newly aquired MM collection of paints and switching over to the acrylics for the sole reasons of "fumes" and "ease of clean up". Suggestions?

Also, for those experienced in Acrylics, which do you recommend? I was eyeing the MM ones soley because I think they're a bit cheaper (just invested alot of $ into the "re-discovery' of this hobby)?

Again, thanks for all the inputs so far!
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posted by maddafinga on Monday, September 22, 2003 7:58 AM
I like enamels for the reason that I can mask over the top of them to fix whatever painting screwups I need to fix. Also, I already have lots of enamels and don't want to spend the bucks to replace them, so I've just kinda stuck with them. I've heard great things about Tamaya acrylics though. The bottom line is just preference I think though, just use whatever you like the best.

madda
Madda Trifles make perfection, but perfection is no trifle. -- Leonardo Da Vinci Tact is for those who lack the wit for sarcasm.--maddafinga
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by shermanfreak on Monday, September 22, 2003 8:54 AM
I use acrylics mainly for the ease of clean-up. I've never had a major problems with them in close to 15 or so years that I've used them. For the most part I use Tamiya, I find it to be close to airbrush ready. I also use a little MM acrylic, but mostly just for detail painting.
Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 22, 2003 9:17 AM
Welcome to the Forum!
Glue: I just started using Super Thin Cement (by Gunze I think). This stuff is as thin as, well, thinner. You can apply it to an aircraft fuselage while you hold it together and it will seep into the gap. Comes in handy if you have a warped model and need to glue a section at a time as you straighten it. The best part is, it's so thin that there is almost no residue.

Oh, and go get yourself a 5 gallon bucket of Future floor polish. You'll use every drop of it once you discover all of it's uses for scale models!Wink [;)]

-fish
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