paint problem

Bgrigg wrote:

So, you'll admit that a sale rep can correct an engineer, eh? Maybe the description should be upgraded to "Sale reps know a little bit about next to nothing"!

More

You bet!

More then admit a good sales rep can "correct an engineer", any experienced engineer knows that a good sales rep can be an "engineer's best friend", since it is hard to beat anyone at their specialty, especially a sales rep experienced in a specific product application.

In fact, it is those who have a "God Complex" who scare me. They are those who think they "know it all" (unfortunately, many of them were told that they were taught all they needed to know in college by their typiaclly pedantic egocentric professors) like the guys that engineered the Hyatt Hotel Skywalk that collapsed in Kansas City under full-load one Friday evening, killing several.

 

That was a factor in me getting out, was the bunch of junior whiz-kids that they were systematically replacing seasoned professionals with in the '80's and '90's, who in fact were "buddying" each other in key staff positions here and there.

Now I am happy selling a nice "brick-and-morter" line of specialty industrial lubricants, using my engineering knowledge to show any prospect I understand his application needs for his very expensive piece of plant equipment. Also, I got tired of various clients wanting me to sweat the labor for installing the industrial coatings line I used to rep and it is a lot more stable then the typical engineering/consulting game.

Int fact, now that I have done outside sales, I am never going back to the typical "sardine-can" atmosphere that your typical engineering sweat-shopps are so fond of.

 

Tom

So, you'll admit that a sale rep can correct an engineer, eh? Maybe the description should be upgraded to "Sale reps know a little bit about next to nothing"!

Bgrigg wrote:

Engineer Tom, Don't you mean "nothing about everything"? Cheers, Sales Rep Bill

Thanks Bill, like a good Engineer, I corrected it.

Tom

T_Terrific wrote:

Defination of an Engineer vs. a Salesman: "An Engineer continues to learn 'more and more about less and less' until eventually he knows everyting about nothing, whereas a Salesman learns 'less and less about more and more' until eventually he knows everything about nothing". Having worked both occupations, I can testify to the accuracy of the above. Tom

Engineer Tom,

Don't you mean "nothing about everything"?

Cheers,

Sales Rep Bill

Triarius wrote:

I like that definition of "expert." It goes along with the derivation of "consultant": con—to fool or befuddle sult— from the Latin, sultare, to agree together. Note similarity to "insult."  ant—a small, often insignificant insect. So it really means: "To agree to fool or befuddle small insects" —and that's insulting.

Only if you are a small insect.

The others generally don't notice.

That goes along with the slogan; "If you can't dazzle them with footwork, baffle them with bull-dung".

Or

Defination of an Engineer vs. a Salesman:

"An Engineer continues to learn 'more and more about less and less' until eventually he knows everyting about nothing, whereas a Salesman learns 'less and less about more and more' until eventually he knows nothing about everything".

Having worked both occupations, I can testify to the accuracy of the above.

Here's another:

"notice"

not+ice, "Not Ice!"

If you ever noticed that generally wherever "notice" is posted there is no ice contained there?

Tom

As a general rule, glossy paints make bad primers.

The only use of Future as a primer of which I know is under Alclad II, but that's a speciallized lacquer.

Future, unless applied very heavily, is lousy as a filler for surface imperfections. Properly applied and cured, it is very thin, very tough, and very reflective.

It's true curing time is measured in days. Film thickness at 24 hours, IIRC, is approximately fifty to thirty percent of final film thickness, depending on ambient conditions.

If you need to paint a large area already covered with Future, sanding the surface with 1000 grit or finer would be a real good idea.

 

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I like that definition of "expert." It goes along with the derivation of "consultant":

con—to fool or befuddle

sult— from the Latin, sultare, to agree together. Note similarity to "insult." 

ant—a small, often insignificant insect.

So it really means: "To agree to fool or befuddle small insects" —and that's insulting.

 

Bgrigg wrote:

LOL I've always thought an expert was someone who got paid for their opinion? To whom do I send the invoice? I think we're talking past each other, you say it helps dirt from sticking, I say it prevents it from dirt touching, neither of us actually use it on our floors! I will defer to your acknowledged and far greater opinionation (new word!)! I paint over Future all the time, everytime I paint a canopy, in fact, though I have never come up with a scenario where I would use Future, then paint, and then mask and paint some more!

"opinionation"-I like that-cool

One defination of "expert":

Pronunciation: Ex-Spurt

Ex- A "has-been"

Spurt- A drip under pressure

I don't make these things up, I just repeat 'em.

On one website I inadvertantly "stepped on the toes" of their resident "self-appointed expert" on a matter (not this one), and from there on out, he forever would nit-pick me everytime I would try to help someone out.

Warning:

The following information has no real value to anyone building a plastic scale model, so if it gives you naseua, vertigo ,or otherwise has an adverse affect on your sanity, just ignore it.

I do not know if my credentials are unusual for a scale modeler, but in fact I have a degree in engineering, and in fact as a design engineer have done complete engineering design projects, where I have in fact under the duress of having to earn my pay as a engineer, done calculations regarding "coefficient of friction" (or, "friction cohesion"), and so due to circumstances beyond my control, I have the misfortune of being intimately familiar with such properties. 

After leaving engineering, I went into selling industrial products that required applications sales engineers, and one line I very successfully represented for a good length of time was a complete selection of building repair and mintenance and repair products, which included a complete line of floor coatings, including an excellent acrylic product. So there again, as a successful sales engineer/industrial coatings consultant, I had the misfortune of being forced to know and experience the application of something that has essentially nothing to do with everyday life, but it paid well.

Not wanting to embaress anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings, I withheld this information, I did not want to get into a "spitting contest" over semantics, and I am grateful that did not happen.

Now, in case you might find it a helpful bit a trivia, here are the terms that we might have gotten confused and/or misused:

1. Coefficient of friction (or, "friction cohesion"), is the amount of "drag" an object has as it slides along a surface. Obviously, a lubricant such as oil (or any other viscious liquid) reduces this, and that is why when a janitor mops a floor, he put up a barrier warning that the floor is wet. An engineer considers this property when he is designing a sliding conveyor for a major manufacturer, like I was forced to, under the terrible condition of being paid for that kind of work.
2. Surface adhesion is the property of a coating material to  "stay where it is put", or not peel or flake right off. This property can be enhanced by various surface preperation methods, such as roughening with an abrasive and/or the use of a solvent that can soften the surface of certain materials, such as plastics, tiles, lineoleum, etc. On the other hand it can be reduced by applying a coating that when it sets up, is smoother and harder then the suface underneath. These coatings can include various epoxy coatings, acrylic, urethane, varnishes, and enamel paints. All of these I have either personally used and/or sold for others' use, and as a "good sales rep", I have inspected the final results of the various applications to ensure the customer's satisfaction.

The second item, or surface adhesion, is actually the one in question here, and as a former coating consultant with acrylics experience, I feel that I can say that as my educated opinion, that applying a general coat of a top-grade hard-drying shiney acrylic Future floor finish to a scale model as a surface prep for painting is not a very good idea if you want your paint to "adhese".

This and all of the above information and a dollar is good at any McDonalds for a cuppa coffee.

Tom

I would use a decent primer to fill any small surface scratches rather than future, I am just amazed to find out I can use it on floors! Let alone the fact it is a dirt repellant and does(or does'nt) reduce friction cohesion!

 

Maybe a primer coat over the future will also give the paint a key on which adhere. 

Well, I sprayed the model with a little amonia then rinsed and wiped the future away then continued with painting. Working on the invasion stripes now...

I mainly heard of spraying the model with future first so it would help fill any minor surface scratches 

Bgrigg wrote:

I would suspect that the masking tape had a too aggressive tack to it. I use the Tamiya tape and have never had paint lift, something I can't claim with the 3M low tack tape. Also 24 hours is the minimum time I allow between painting and masking. I might even go as long as two or three days depending on the temperature and humidity. Mind you, I take forever to finish a model, so it can easily be a week before I mask. The longer you wait, the less problems you will have.

I agree, particularly with the waiting time on the Future. It s wonderful stuff, but it's also temperamental. If you don't handle it just right, it will bite you. I wait a minimum of 48 hours before attempting to mask over Future to prevent damaging the surface. It may look dry, and it may feel try, but I've boogered up more than one paint job in my impatience to continue a model.

Also, the less time you leave the tape on the surface the better. I mask, paint, wait until the paint is touch dry, then slowly remove the masking tape.

Bgrigg is right on the money about surface prep also. Acrylics seem far more likely to lift if there is even a hint of grease or oil on the surface being painted. I usually prime because if I'm going to see damage from underprepared surfaces, I would rather it came on paint other than my finish coat.

Hope this helps.

LOL I've always thought an expert was someone who got paid for their opinion? To whom do I send the invoice?

I think we're talking past each other, you say it helps dirt from sticking, I say it prevents it from dirt touching, neither of us actually use it on our floors! I will defer to your acknowledged and far greater opinionation (new word!)!

I paint over Future all the time, everytime I paint a canopy, in fact, though I have never come up with a scenario where I would use Future, then paint, and then mask and paint some more!

Bgrigg wrote:

There is no reason for the paint not to adhere to the Future. Future doesn't stop things from sticking to the floor, that would require reducing the friction cohesion and that's not a good thing for floors. All it does is put a clear, shiny barrier between the floor and the dirt, so the dirt doesn't actually touch the floor.

I think it is funny how sometimes an unanswered post will linger sometimes for days, and then suddenly when I take the time to answer it, all of a sudden a bunch of "experts" (as opinionated as I am of course) suddenly appear out of nowhere.

I am gratified that I said something right, Grigg

But please help me understand how keeping  something from touching a floor does not keep it from sticking to it???

Did I inadvertantly sleep through that lesson in Physical Science in college?

And in fact, where I have seen Future put down, it effectively does reduce friction cohesion (a $20 phrase for lack of slickness,or slipperyness)on the surface, leaving the rougher texture of the base floor material itself (in this case bumpy tiles) to help things not slide too much.

Tom

There is no reason for the paint not to adhere to the Future. Future doesn't stop things from sticking to the floor, that would require reducing the friction cohesion and that's not a good thing for floors. All it does is put a clear, shiny barrier between the floor and the dirt, so the dirt doesn't actually touch the floor. However, Tom's comment about paint not liking to stick to shiny surfaces is valid, as is his recommendation for a light sanding between coats.

Future is really nothing more than a clear acrylic paint, and the paint should stick just fine. I would suspect that the masking tape had a too aggressive tack to it. I use the Tamiya tape and have never had paint lift, something I can't claim with the 3M low tack tape. Also 24 hours is the minimum time I allow between painting and masking. I might even go as long as two or three days depending on the temperature and humidity. Mind you, I take forever to finish a model, so it can easily be a week before I mask. The longer you wait, the less problems you will have.

Acrylic paints can be used very successfully, but not if you approach them as if they were enamels. Priming is often recommended, though I rarely, if ever, prime. I DO make sure that the surface is clean, free of oils and solvents and dry. 

My

I believe your problem is applying the Future before applying the paint.

Honestly, I have never heard of anyone applying Future before painting before, and now I believe you have made a clear case as to why it is a bad idea.

You see, essentially Future is a clear, gloss finish coat meant to keep stuff from sticking to floors.

Normally people use a diluted form of it as a final/overcoat just before and after applying decals. That would not be the step before you first began to paint your model.

By nature, paint of any sort does not like to stick on a shiney, mirror-finish surface (which is why it is so hard to keep paint from running if you apply it to glass).

In fact, a good normal surface prep for painting is a light sanding of the surface to be painted with a fine grit sandpaper to make a shiney of gloss finish more of a semi-gloss or satin finish. This puts in microscopic grooves for the paint to flow into and enhances adhesion.

So, depending on how for you have gotten, I would suggest you remove and/or roughen the Future coat by giving the model a light sanding/steel-wooling, and then proceed.

Meanwhile, acrylic tends not to adhese to plastic as well as an enamel or lacquer, simply because the thinners in those products actually slightly dissolve and soften the surface of plastic and actually create a more durible bond to styrene plastic then that you will get with the water-based acrylic.

That means acrylics are very touchy to masking of any sort, and so if you do, you have to use a very low-tack tape, and prepare to do some touching up here and there where it still lifts up a spot or two.

That is why I tend to limit acrylics more to broad surface applications, and lean more to enamels for details, such as striping.

Also, when a "primer" is called for, I tend to use a flat enamel for the undercoat, using the acrylic for the finish/top coat, since it does dry faster and harder then solvent-based enamel.

OK?

Tom