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Oh No Another Paint Booth Question

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  • Member since
    June 2007
Oh No Another Paint Booth Question
Posted by squeakie on Monday, November 5, 2007 11:45 AM

 Ok, I came into a semi chunk of change (actually two chunks), and I'm thinking I want a new paint booth. After all I have a new air brush! I mostly do 1/48th aircraft and 1/35th armor, so I think I could easilly get by with the 20" size. So here's what I've been looking at, and I thought maybe I'd see what the other users think.

* There are two Pace booths that interest me. A 20" one and their 24" one. The thirty inch one is just too big for my ever decreasing limited space. Right now Pace is running a sale on them. I can buy the 24" Mini for $265, or even the 20" version for a $165.

* There is one Badger booth that interests me in the way it's built. It's the SP 135 (I think), and now they've came out with a 24" version. These booths have no sides, so I would have less trouble painting a ship or two here and there (I probably have not built ten ships in my lifetime)

* And then there is one from Pasche that can be had for $265 as well.

All these booths look good on paper, but also know there is another story here. So I said to myself last night while going into a very deep state of depression over a certain football game, that I'd dump this load on some experts in the field.

Thanks in advance

gary

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Monday, November 5, 2007 11:59 AM
Even though I already have a good home-built booth, I'm considering the Pace 20 inch. I too would be interested in other's opinions.

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, November 5, 2007 12:15 PM

I have a home built, but it's not perfect and have also been looking at the 20" Pace booths as a "maybe if I come into two chunks of money" thing myself. My problem is the additional costs that I get pummelled with shipping over the border to Canada. I'll probably end up modifying my booth to be a downdraft style.

I've heard some very good things about all three booths. Scott (Espins1) has the 24" Pace IIRC. MikeV has the Badger booth. I expect both will chime in with their opinions.

I've heard the Paasche is an excellent booth, but it is also the most expensive. Is it the one that recirculates the air and doesn't need to be vented? That feature may very well be worth the extra costs.

 

 

So long folks!

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Monday, November 5, 2007 12:23 PM
I would be a little wary of a recirculation booth. These depend on changing filter elements to be effective, with the obvious increased possibility of human error. Just my My 2 cents [2c] (Canadian/Canadien) Mischief [:-,]

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:36 PM

I love the Badger booth.

It works great and is not real expensive.

I don't think sides make much difference as the airflow is going out the back so it catches all the paint particles. I have not heard of a new 24" version so I emailed Ken to see what was up with that. That would be nice for larger models.  

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:37 PM

 Triarius wrote:
I would be a little wary of a recirculation booth. These depend on changing filter elements to be effective, with the obvious increased possibility of human error. Just my My 2 cents [2c] (Canadian/Canadien) Mischief [:-,]

Very true Ross and those filters can get expensive as you have 2-3 stages of filtration.

Too much work and cost for me, I prefer exhausting out a window like I do.  

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Monday, November 5, 2007 10:50 PM
 MikeV wrote:

I love the Badger booth.

It works great and is not real expensive.

I don't think sides make much difference as the airflow is going out the back so it catches all the paint particles. I have not heard of a new 24" version so I emailed Ken to see what was up with that. That would be nice for larger models.  

I happened to see a photo of the larger spraybooth. I posted 24", but it may be 22" wide. I like the idea of the open sides. How noisey is yours? And, Do you have any trouble seeing what you are painting with it? What about filters?

gary

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Monday, November 5, 2007 11:00 PM

you know I may be wrong about a 24" badager booth. I was going to post a link, but when I checked Airbrush Depot, they don't list one. I'll look some more.

gary

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Maryland
Posted by usmc1371 on Monday, November 5, 2007 11:03 PM

I got Paasche's Hobby Spray Booth.  It's great.  I nice feature is that it folds down if you want to store it.  The only draw back is lighting.  I added an under the cabinet light.  This is the one I got:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PAASCHE-22-Paint-Spray-Booth-HSSB-22-16-SHIPS-FREE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ63698QQihZ001QQitemZ110189680688QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Jesse

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, November 5, 2007 11:47 PM
 squeakie wrote:
 MikeV wrote:

I love the Badger booth.

It works great and is not real expensive.

I don't think sides make much difference as the airflow is going out the back so it catches all the paint particles. I have not heard of a new 24" version so I emailed Ken to see what was up with that. That would be nice for larger models.  

I happened to see a photo of the larger spraybooth. I posted 24", but it may be 22" wide. I like the idea of the open sides. How noisey is yours? And, Do you have any trouble seeing what you are painting with it? What about filters?

gary

I emailed Ken and he is going to get back to me with the size.

I have the smaller one and I like it. It is not that noisy about like a quieter vacuum cleaner and I have no trouble seeing what I am painting as I have a 60 watt bulb in a desk lamp next to it that I can swivel. Filters are just a thick piece of material and last quite a while although I am going to look into a furnace filter if they make one that size as that would be cheaper to replace.  

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 6:21 AM

I recently purchased the large Pace booth.. here is a copy of a review I recently posted and some discussion regarding the booth

(NOTE - Pace 'sales" roll over.. the summer "sale" prices ended, and then the Fall 'sale" prices started.. same sale price... dont feel rushed to buy because the 'sale" is ending...)

----In case anyone is searching for Pace booth info... I got the Peacemaker (largest)... few observations:

1. The 2 light bulbs are regular 75W incand... will heat up the top part of the booth REAL fast and REAL hot... a problem if you left your spray can on top of it like I did ;)  I promptly changed them to 60W energy savers. looks like same amount of "light" , the extended bulb fits in the space, and your booth does not get hot!

2. Be careful moving it around.. the steel sheets can/could bend.... and have sharp edges.

3. It IS noisy, but moderate.. you COULD have a radio (loud) or TV on if you would like...my air compressor is actually a tad louder, but nothing bad at all.

4. Works well, the peacemaker has two fans and they really rip... the venting is high capacity air flow, and it DOES take care of the fumes (I tested this; I use enamels).

5. you need to practice and figure out how "deep" within the cabinet you musy have your model when you AB. Couple times I washed by AB with a blast of thinner at the end of a session, too close to the edge and got some blowback. But again, only when you are not deep enough in the cabinet and shooting high volume hi psi.

6. As mentioned before, this thing is HUGE... lots of space to leave your thinners, AB cleaning stuff, some model parts drying on the back, etc. Plenty of "elbow" room for larger pieces (ships, 1:32 A/c)

Have not used it enough to determine frequency of filter changes... but filters are furnace type, not the 70$ proprietary ones that Artrograph booths require.

 Overall contruction is not too bad, but not excellent.. not very sturdy, you need a solid platform.. I would reinforce the main frame if I knew how to, to make the overall structure more solid.

In summary, a good investment; a tad pricey, but cheaper in the long run than Artrographs.. also the largest non-professional non-custom built spray booth you can find. If you have the space and moulah, high recommendation, with jury still out on filter change frequency, longevity and long term use.

---

1. You paint about halfway inside the booth, always aiming towards the back... filter/fans are slanted to your LEFT, thats the route of airflow. Not a problem if you spray normally and are a "righty".

2. You do have to cover the inside with something... I have a layer of plastic tarp, and newspapers on top. I have (yet!) to get paint on the sides, but was also thinking of covering the sides. In either case, cleaning should not be a problem, since all you would do is wipe with a rag holding some thinner, the paint wont stick to sheet metal (as long as you wipe shortly after the mess). (I use enamel paints)

3. Venting is a problem/issue. You MUST vent with this model... the main reason I was looking at the Artrograph was because one of their models uses charcoal activated filter system and (in theory) allows you to spray "vent-less". Those models are also "downdraft" systems, uses less air "power" to create equal negative flow of air. However, the filters can be quite expensive and need to be changed every few models (got this info asking people on this forum).

4. If you have a window, you can set up a plywood "slate" with your hose attached (and sealed). Open the window, put your slate, close the window until it abuts your slate, and vent away. Basically, the same setup people use for driers or internal/vertical "apartment" AC, difference being, you want it to be a temporary set up, so you can close your window fully when not in use. Depending on your local weather, you may even have it permanently.

My (limited) experience with the booth is that you vent the FUMES and (in theory) the aerosolized paint particles should be trapped by the booth filters. My wife was concerned I would turn the house siding outside my booth window a lovely shade of aircraft grey ;). Finally, your window/outlet should be less than 15' from the booth, and minimal 90o bends, or you get degradation of venting. Look up a few posts in this thread, a member ESPINS posted a Peacemaker pic in his house, I think its a bedroom, venting out the window next to the booth.

--

Yes, the Pace booth was a compromise; I could not find a "very good in all fronts" booth that covered my needs (for less than $400).

I am experimenting with the air flow issues; seems you will not get blowback in about 75% of the inner area (including the shelf). The back/center right side is a dead zone... I put my bottles, cleaning supplies, etc there (and drying models).

The sheet metal construction is adequate at best; I was a tad surprised at the flimsiness of contruction. I think he is saving weight (and metal) by using the minimum engineering strenght needed (or so I hope!). The lightbulbs heating the metal sheet is a problem Im surprised escaped QC.

On the other hand, blowing out the thinner in my AB during cleaning at 30psi into the booth, I dont get any blowback... again, once you learn the "sweet" spot, you can AB safely.. however NO WAY I would spray can into any booth, much less this one.

In summary, I would recomend the booth with an asterisk, depends on your needs. I spent half my adult life working with biological agents and in/out/around biological safety cabinets... I know how "safe" hoods/booths can SEEM, but we know that the only real measure of safety is airflow patterns. For me, the cost of the Artrographs filters and the size of the Pace tilted the balance to its favor...  i wish I could sneak out a chemical fume hood from my lab (I have a spare one) but then I need a proper filter system. Or purchase an used artist booth (usually in the 2-3,000 range new).

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 8:23 PM
 squeakie wrote:

you know I may be wrong about a 24" badager booth. I was going to post a link, but when I checked Airbrush Depot, they don't list one. I'll look some more.

gary

The Badger booth is the same one I have and it is 17 1/2" wide X 14" high.

They do not have a newer, larger one as far as I know.  

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 8:42 PM

Don't mean to butt in here, but for what it's worth:

A booth that is enclosed on all sides ensures you get your monies' worth from the fan, and makes the booth the most efficient in terms of capture and airflow (velocity).  It also makes the air more laminar, and reduces or eliminates turbulence.  Enclosed booths also improve capture distance.  I've recently seen vent setups where air was entering the face of a duct (the duct was the actual vent opening) at about 1500fpm, but the distance where 100fpm was maintained for adequate capture was barely 6" away and in the center of the air column. And I don't know anyone who sprays that close to their exhaust.   A couple inches to either side and airflow fell off dramatically.  At approximately 8" from the opening, airflow was almost that of still air (~50fpm).  That alone should speak volumes about booth design and function. 

Open-sided booths bring in air from the sides, and not the front, where all the action is going on; IMO, they're evidence of poor design.

For anyone who is interested, the IDEAL dimensions for a booth is as follows:

1.  The width should equal the required work size +12"

2.  The height should equal the required work size +12"

3.  The distance from the face of the booth to the baffle, or the back of the booth should be 0.75 X Width or Height, whichever is greater.

4.  The distance from a baffle to the back of the booth is 0.75 X duct diameter, and the baffle area should be 0.60 (WH). 

5.  Airflow (in cfm) should be 200 fpm X W X H for booths with a face area up to 4 sq. ft. and 150 fpm X W X H for booth face areas greater than 4 sq. ft. 

6.  Figures above are also based on a duct velocity of 2000fpm (the push side of the fan).

Bottom line:  Get (or build) a booth that's enclosed on all sides.

 

Just my opinion,

Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 9:17 PM
Well thanks Gip now I guess I have to build some sides for my Badger booth. Tongue [:P]

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 10:28 PM
 styrene wrote:

Don't mean to butt in here, but for what it's worth:

<snip> 

Just my opinion,

Gip Winecoff

The Voice-of-Experience has spoken! Nyeah! Mischief [:-,]

For those who may not know, Gip's "opinion" on such matters passes for hard science, just about anywhere.

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 10:33 PM
I concur with Ross about Gip's opinion. He's forgotten more than many of us every knew. His posts do tend to look like those math problems I hated in school though! Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

So long folks!

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 12:14 PM

you know I've actually learned more (and realized just how little I knew) about spray booths in these dozen or so posts than you could imagine! Whatever booth I buy will be vented to the outside of the condo when in use. About the biggest plane I'll ever build will be a 1/32 scale Storch, and most of the planes I'll ever build will be in 1/48th. I do build armor, and it's usually in 1/35th. Still I have a U-Boat project that's in 1/72 and may be doing a couple more in the future (note I'm a gluten for punisment). How I'm gonna paint that thing without blowing the place up I havn't a clue, but do go ahead and start a flower fund in my behalf <g>.

     As I write this it looks like it will either be the Badger or the Pace. Each one has an advantage that really helps me out. I like the way the Pace is setup with built in lighting and an excellent filter system (Badger does as well). But the one thing I like about the Badger over anyother I've seen is the overall size & storage. After all you gotta have a place to keep it, and my little place is really cramped for room right now. I had the perfect place to tie my flies and build my kits (I should have known this was too damned good right off the bat). When low and behold my oldest son needs a place to stay for a couple weeks. Get rid of him and here comes the next one! One thing I've learned in life is that my sons are like feeding cats on the back porch. Once you feed them they just keep comming back. (anybody wanta take one in?)

gary

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 12:38 PM

squeakie - if you get the Pace booth, dont forget the issue about the lights I mentioned in the huge post I pasted above... they get booth top REAL hot REAL quick.... I changed them immediately.

However, I may put the "hot' lights back on in the winter time, to help warm up the booth area (garage area gets cold, which can severely affect air brushing, specially with enamels).

 

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Thursday, November 8, 2007 9:03 PM
 JMart wrote:

squeakie - if you get the Pace booth, dont forget the issue about the lights I mentioned in the huge post I pasted above... they get booth top REAL hot REAL quick.... I changed them immediately.

However, I may put the "hot' lights back on in the winter time, to help warm up the booth area (garage area gets cold, which can severely affect air brushing, specially with enamels).

 

what about swaping them out for the new low wattage flourescent ones? They make one that's 75watts and one thats 100 watts (I think anyway). I have the 60's and 75's all over my house, and they generate almost no heat.

gary

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Friday, November 9, 2007 10:15 AM

"what about swaping them out for the new low wattage flourescent ones? They make one that's 75watts and one thats 100 watts (I think anyway)."

Actually, that is exactly what I did the first day I installed the booth, swapped in some low W flour bulbs :) ...  my spray booth is in an attached small garage, no heat... gets cold in the winter, which severely affects air brushing (specially enamels). I may swap the "hot lights" back on during winter times to keep the airbrushing booth area warm enough for me to AB. (Yes, cold plastic also negatively affects how paint sticks to it!).

 

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Friday, November 9, 2007 12:40 PM
 JMart wrote:

"what about swaping them out for the new low wattage flourescent ones? They make one that's 75watts and one thats 100 watts (I think anyway)."

Actually, that is exactly what I did the first day I installed the booth, swapped in some low W flour bulbs :) ...  my spray booth is in an attached small garage, no heat... gets cold in the winter, which severely affects air brushing (specially enamels). I may swap the "hot lights" back on during winter times to keep the airbrushing booth area warm enough for me to AB. (Yes, cold plastic also negatively affects how paint sticks to it!).

 

That's the way my garage is too. It never freezes in there, but it will get pretty danged chilly in there (think I saw 39 degrees last winter). But with the advent of the impending eviction of the last remaining freeloader at my house; I'll finally have the one bedroom back to myself again! Then I can vent directly outside with a block affair (might make itn out of 1/4" plywood with sandwiched styrofoam in the middle).

      I've decided to either order the Pace 20" booth or the 17 1/2" Badger Monday afternoon. Right now the Badger is out front due to size elements alone. Only thing about the Pace that bugs me is the noise factor. I have a hi-fi system upstairs, and it goes back into that room. That and my digital darkroom project (on again!!!). And I almost forgot my record storage racks (I own about a thousand LP's right now, and the stash grows by the week). Soon as I get the last one out I'm instantly filling it up so there's no more invaders.

gary

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: The Plains of Kansas
Posted by doc-hm3 on Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:38 AM

  Okay guys, for those of us that cannot spend $300-500 on a commercially made booth. Does anybody have plans for a downdraft booth not made of plastic (which holds a static charge, hence Kaboom! with lacquer) but of metal or thin plywood, with a sealed unit exhaust fan?

                                                                 Thanks doc

All gave some and some gave all.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Sunday, November 11, 2007 4:53 PM

From an old doc to a new one, welcome to the forum!

The quick answer is to do a search for spray booth.  You'll find this topic has been saturated with questions and responses, both good and bad.  Do some research, then if you have more questions, come back and we'll give 'em our best shot!

Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:15 PM
Doc, basically do a search and read everything Mr Winecoff wrote, he was my main source of information (well, his posts!) during my research. I know couple threads had links to blueprints and/or designs for home made booths

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:14 PM
Sign - Ditto [#ditto]

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

DHM
  • Member since
    September 2007
Posted by DHM on Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:35 PM

Sign - Ditto [#ditto](again)

What he says IS science. 

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