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Why is it so hard to lay down a coat of white?

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  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: CA. all day
Posted by sizzlak on Friday, November 16, 2007 11:17 PM
I like to us thin coats of Tamiya flat white, it's magic, then you can gloss or whatever.
  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Latvia, EU
Posted by Grahor on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:01 PM
For some reason, white color is the hardest to paint I can think of. I'm using Vallejo white primer, thinned with Vallejo thinner, and lay at least two coats. Often I lay as many as 6 coats. Also, white color for some reason is the worst for airbrush - it tends to cram tip and to cure on the tip of the needle much more than other colors, even when retarder is used.
  • Member since
    June 2006
Posted by KennyB on Monday, November 12, 2007 5:23 PM

Okay, I'm back. Got side lined into something else right after making the post. I appreciate all of the great feedback. I just checked the paint I used, it was Reefer White, but, not Floquil. It is Polly Scale acrylic. Don't know how that happened, probably got picked up when I was buying some Floquil railroad colors. It is in a 1 oz. bottle standing amongst a dozen or so 1 oz. bottles of Floquil enamel. It's what I had and what I used. I'm sure that if I used the Floquil Reefer White (which I don't have) I would have had better coverage, because I clearly remember painting some box cars and having no problem with coverage, not the case with the Polly Scale. Next question is. I've used Floquil for years in model railroading and I've always used Dio-sol to thin it. I have a can on the shelf right now, but just out of curiosity, I was wondering if you can thin Floquil with lacquer thinner. Well, that's it for now. I'm going back to the workshop and lay a couple of more coats of this pissy white down and see what it looks like.

                                                                                   Ken

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Monday, November 12, 2007 11:58 AM
Don't fear the Reefer! Oh thats a different subject!Evil [}:)] Yes, Reefer White is a good choice.

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: Cape Town SA
Posted by Big Mike on Monday, November 12, 2007 11:11 AM

Use the tamiya white primer it goes on flawlesly and two coats covers it perfectly i used it on my 1/32 scale F-16 and my 1/32 phantom.and if you want a gloss just spay clear on top. it is not cheap but you will like it.

Mike

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: A Spartan in the Wolverine State
Posted by rjkplasticmod on Monday, November 12, 2007 9:37 AM

Try Floquil Reefer White... You'll fall in love.

Regards,  Rick

RICK At My Age, I've Seen It All, Done It All, But I Don't Remember It All...
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, November 12, 2007 9:12 AM

Zzz [zzz] ZzzZzzZzzZzz *snort* Wha?

Yeah, that's what I said, not very opaque! Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

I know less than Ross has forgotten about paint, but I do know about printing inks. White is a nasty color to print and typically requires a minimum of two coats. Better yet is to lay down a silver metallic "prime" coat for the white to sit on. 

So long folks!

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Monday, November 12, 2007 9:00 AM

What we are talking about is a coating property called, appropriately, "hide." It varies from pigment to pigment, and it also varies from paint to paint, depending on how much pigment (called pigment load) is put into a formulation. How much pigment there is in a formulation is related to, among many other things, the weight of the pigment. There are also "colorless" pigments that are added strictly to improve hide. More on those, later.

The ability of a pigment to provide opacity is related to its particle size, particle shape, translucency, and an odd property called internal reflection that is related to translucency. The worst pigment for hide is usually yellow. This was not true prior to the 1960's, when chromate pigments (highly toxic) were still in use. Modern yellow pigments often have a very small particle size and are fairly equant in dimension. IIRC, they are also relatively heavy and translucent, with low internal reflection. As a result, the amount of yellow pigment that can be put in a paint is relatively low, and its ability to reflect light is relatively poor.

White is only a little better. It is quite heavy. One form of the pigment has a tabular shape, the other is roughly equant. The tabular pigment gets used in flat white. Because the particles are tabular, they tend to settle flat and present a wide, flat surface to incident light. That is one reason why flat whites generally have better hide than gloss whites. Another is that gloss whites have lower pigment loads than flats. This is necessary because high pigment loads reduce gloss, which is produced by the binder. This is true of all paint colors: for a given color of a given brand of paint, the flat will have better hide, all other things being equal.

White pigment also has high internal reflection. This helps the brightness, and slightly improves hide.

White paints often include essentially colorless pigments intended to improve hide. This is possible with white because of the high internal reflectance of the white pigment. Yellow, having lower internal reflectance, will become dull at the same opacity pigment load as a white.

Pigments with the best hide are opaque and tabular. That is why metallics and black generally have such good hide. All metallic pigments (with some specialty coating exceptions) are tabular. The primary pigment in black is a form of graphite‚—also tabular and very opaque.

That's the barest bones of it. I could go on, but I can hear your eyes crossing even over the internet! Laugh [(-D] (Those of you who haven't fallen asleep, that is.) Zzz [zzz]

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Monday, November 12, 2007 8:25 AM

I always start with a base of flat white first. Ususally two coats, then once it has dried completely I will add the gloss in several light coats.

The flat is thinned down about 50/50 and I use it to get the coverage I want. The gloss is just for the cosmetic look. 

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, November 12, 2007 12:06 AM

The brand makes a difference also.

I have found that Floquil Reefer White covers better than any other I have used.

 

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Lompoc, CA, USA
Posted by TomcatFanatic123 on Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:29 PM

I have the same problems with white paint as you do.  I absolutely hate painting anything white.  I love the look of the old Tomcats with the white underside, but I can't pull it off.  I've never airbrushed white (or any color for that matter, I'm not quite comfortable with airbrushing quite yet), so I can't help you there, BUT:

For my current F-16 build, the struts, bays, etc. obvioulsy required white paint, so this is what I did: 

I assembled all the fiddly-bits that I could, then set them aside for painting.  I then took a rattle can of good ol' ModelMaster Flat Black and sprayed that as an undercoat.  Let that dry, then came back with ModelMaster Flat White spray and went to town...thin coat, let it dry, thin coat, let it dry...you get the picture.  Took about 4 coats and a LOT of patience, but the end result was some of the best white painting I've ever done.

Check it out:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j17/TomcatFanatic123/Viper%20model/gearbay.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j17/TomcatFanatic123/Viper%20model/intake2-1.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j17/TomcatFanatic123/Viper%20model/maingear1.jpg

Oh, BTW, after you are finished painting that white, make sure you lay down a coat of Future or Glosscote and seal that bad boy.  If not, it tends to nick and scratch quite a bit, and you'll be doing a lot of touch-up work.

James "TomcatFanatic123" Eberling Have you ever had the odds stacked up so high You need a strength most don't possess Or has it ever came down to do or die, you've got to rise above the rest
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, November 11, 2007 9:33 PM
White just isn't a very opaque color, no matter what kind of paint. White (and yellow) are the colours that I always prime, and as Ross says silver works very well.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:31 PM
Try putting a coat of silver under the white.

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    June 2006
Why is it so hard to lay down a coat of white?
Posted by KennyB on Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:37 PM

How come I always have a problem getting decent coverage with white paint. I build aircraft, cars, and ships. I don't generally build airliners, but I have a couple in my collection and decided to give it a try. Puttied my seams. Got everything all smooth and pretty. Put down a nice coat of Mr surfacer 1200 and let it dry for a day. Now I've been through this before with miserable results and someone in the aircraft forum had said that he uses nothing but Floquil Reefer White. Being a part time model railroader as well, I had a bottle of this stuff. Only thing I didn't like is that it was the acrylic railroad color. Well, I layed down about six coats of this stuff through a Badger 360. Paint layed down flawlessly, with translucent coverage. What do I have to do? Somebody please let me know what I'm doing wrong.

                                                                                           Ken

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