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Paint Comes off Easily

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  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Sydney Australia
Paint Comes off Easily
Posted by roylo on Monday, March 31, 2008 9:58 PM

Im using Tamiya acrylic and enamel paints through my air brush and brushed on but it seems to come off very easily. Its actually a joke. The slightest touch with a finger nail and even handling the part before gluing it on and the paint comes off or is marked.

I sand and clean the parts before painting and use Tamiya primer but it makes no difference.

I look at the pro painted models and detail parts and the paint on these is super tough so what am I doing wrong?

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:50 AM

The first question would be..

How long are you leaving it to dry before handling? Tamiya acrylics can "touch dry" in minutes (or even seconds, depending on how thin the layer of paint is) BUT can take up to a day or more to fully harden.

In the first couple of hours after painting especially, Tamiya acrylics can scratch off very easily. Leave it for a day or two and they usually bond very tightly to the surface (assuming that it's clean).

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Sydney Australia
Posted by roylo on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:56 AM
Even after weeks it still comes off.
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 4:57 AM

Ok, on to the next question..

What are you using for thinner (particularly for the acylics), and how much are you using?

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 8:57 AM
 Phil_H wrote:

Ok, on to the next question..

What are you using for thinner (particularly for the acylics), and how much are you using?

Additionally, what type of airbrush (siphon or gravity fed), what airbrushing pressure, and what distance from model to airbrush? 

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Sydney Australia
Posted by roylo on Thursday, April 3, 2008 5:40 PM

OK. For thinner Im using Tamiya thinner. For brushing no thinner. Airbrush, about 2/3 thinner 1/3 paint.

Pasche siphon feed single action about 2 inches distance 25 PSI.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Thursday, April 3, 2008 7:02 PM

Ok, at this point I am going to offer you an apology. It must sound like I don't believe you or something...

I had a look back through your posts to see if they might shed any light on what you're doing, and found that you're using Tamiya gloss paints. Yes, their gloss paints tend to scratch/flake more easily than their flat paints I'm more familiar with. (Though they shouldn't scratch/flake at the slightest touch)

The only suggestion I can offer at this point is to apply a flat (perhaps enamel) undercoat before applying yout top coats. This will give the paint something to bite on, and will help reduce 'creeping" and "pulling" where surface tension will pull the paint towards moulded details and crevices (resulting in uneven coverage).

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Sydney Australia
Posted by roylo on Friday, April 4, 2008 6:10 AM

Haha nah its OK Im only new to using these paints anyway. Its just that I have some diecast models that have been painted from the factory and its impossible to scratch these with your nail, even the detail parts under the bonnet. But with my paint jobs I can easily strip all the paint with my finger nail so Im either doing something wrong or the pros are using different paint to me...

With the flat paints. I painted a part with the tamiya enamel flat aluminium colour. After 2 weeks I put the part together and just the handling the part with my fingers wore some paint off and I could see the colour of the part underneath...

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Friday, April 4, 2008 9:46 AM

Drop your pressure to 15 to 20 psi, as close to 15 as possible.  Make sure the plastic surface is super clean.

The "paint" on your diecast models is more likely to be a baked on finish or a modified epoxy based paint. 

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Sydney Australia
Posted by roylo on Sunday, April 6, 2008 2:56 AM

Ill bake mine if thats what it takes. How do I do that?

Buy really what do you guys do? Im scared to even touch any part I paint because the paint will come off.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: White Mountains, NH
Posted by jhande on Sunday, April 6, 2008 2:21 PM

I don't use acrylics but a paintjob is done in similar fashion no matter what type of paint. It also doesn't matter whether it is a plastic model kit or a diecast, the proceedures remain the same. So with that I'd like to share my steps with you in hopes it might help.

  • First wash the part to be painted with a degreaser; such as a little bit of Dawn dish soap mixed with warm water.
  • "Carefully" wet sand the part with... oh say, 320 to 600 grit.
  • Wipe the sanded part down with Isopropyl (rubbing) Alcohol.
  • Use a type of primer compatable with your top coat paint, such as enamel under enamel, and let dry for a day or two.
  • Again carefully wet sand the primered surface with 320 to 600 grit.
  • Again wipe down with Alcohol.
  • Spray a mist coat of your top coat color (properly mixed/thinned) and wait a few minutes until it is just bearly tacky to the touch. Then spray a slightly heavier coat of paint (not too thick or else you'll get runs). If needed give it a third coat or even a fourth to get the proper color results, waiting until it's tacky to the touch between coats.
  • Wait a few days before handling the painted parts.

When I brush paint (enamel straight from the bottle) small parts all I do is the detergent wash and Alcohol wipe down. In just a day or two I can handle the parts for gluing.

-- Jim --
"Put the pedal down & shake the ground!"

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Indiana
Posted by hkshooter on Sunday, April 6, 2008 10:19 PM
You mentioned die cast, what are you painting? If the surface to be painted is very glossy or metal the paint will not stick very well, especially acryls.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Seattle, WA
Posted by RonUSMC on Sunday, April 6, 2008 11:21 PM

I just had this problem earlier tonight.

 I think your problem is the chemical residue on the plastic. You need to wash them with a degreaser. Some people use dish soap in the bathtub.. then let them air dry.

When making the plastic they use this chemical that helps them get released from the cast. That sometimes stays on as a residue and paint will come off very easily. Almost like the paint is just sitting on top of it. While painting a part the brush will actually start to pull off the paint you just painted. I hate that. 

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  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Sunday, April 6, 2008 11:25 PM

Jim's process is as nearly foolproof as you can get—he's a painting pro.  There are shortcuts, but you have to have the experience/techincal knowledge to know when or if they will work. That only comes with experience or education or both.

As for baked finishes: Some coatings are formulated to be "baked." These are specialized coatings well beyond the capability of even most professional scale modelers, and they don't apply to plastic or resin models, as those would melt or burn at the required temperatures.

However, cure and cure properties (such as adhesion) of almost any coating can be accelerated and enhanced by application of mild heat, generally less than 120°F. This can be done with a box having holes cut in the top, a lightbulb, and a small fan (optional). Search these forums on "curing" and you should find the necessary info. I use a forced air food dehydrator (~$100). (It pays to buy the right gifts for your significant other… Wink [;)])

The key factor with acrylics is cleanliness of the substrate. Something that is rarely mentioned is that sanding is not a cleaning process. It needs to be washed and degreased afterwards.

Very highly polished styrene plastic sometimes gives problems with acrylic adhesion, particularly with ModelMaster paints, although it could affect any brand. Wiping down the surface with 90% isopropyl alcohol, denatured alcohol, or ethyl alcohol usually solves this problem.

About all I can say is that I rarely have adhesion problems with acrylics—some brands are more problematic than others, but there isn't one of the major brands that I've used that I haven't been able to make stay where I put it. I never prime with enamels. The only nonacrylic paints I use are artist's oils, Alclad II (rare) and detail metallics. All the methods and techniques I use have been (and undoubtedly will be again) posted in these and other forums. It's not the paint—it's the method.

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Sunday, April 6, 2008 11:45 PM

 RonUSMC wrote:
When making the plastic they use this chemical that helps them get released from the cast. That sometimes stays on as a residue and paint will come off very easily.

Mold release agents, as they are properly called, are often very close to being chemically inert—which means they are hard to remove from the surface. Many detergents and soaps are not completely effective. Different model manufacturers use different mold release agents: what works on one may not remove another.

The best cleaners for removing mold release agents are (in the order I generally use):

Simple Green solution

Windex

Ethyl or denatured alcohol

90% isopropyl alcohol

Surfactant cleaners (such as Formula 409)

Dishwashing detergents

Clean-rinsing soaps (not with very hard water) such as Dr. Bronner's & Woolite, Murphy's

 

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Sydney Australia
Posted by roylo on Monday, April 7, 2008 6:11 AM
 Triarius wrote:

 RonUSMC wrote:
When making the plastic they use this chemical that helps them get released from the cast. That sometimes stays on as a residue and paint will come off very easily.

Mold release agents, as they are properly called, are often very close to being chemically inert—which means they are hard to remove from the surface. Many detergents and soaps are not completely effective. Different model manufacturers use different mold release agents: what works on one may not remove another.

The best cleaners for removing mold release agents are (in the order I generally use):

Simple Green solution

Windex

Ethyl or denatured alcohol

90% isopropyl alcohol

Surfactant cleaners (such as Formula 409)

Dishwashing detergents

Clean-rinsing soaps (not with very hard water) such as Dr. Bronner's & Woolite, Murphy's

 

 

So Im better off using windex than Ethyl or denatured alcohol or 90% isopropyl alcohol?

Im aking because all I have at the moment is windex so Ill just use that..

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