Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question

I haven't built or bought the kit, but if I remember correctly it's a good one - one of the last new sailing ships Airfix produced.  I think I recall looking at it in the box, and concluding that the "carved" ornamentation was on the same level of quality as that of the Airfix Wasa, which in my opinion is one of the best plastic sailing ship kits ever.  (It's let down by the standard Airfix "dummy barrel" approach to the lower deck guns, but one can't have everything.)  It's definitely not a reissue of a Heller kit.

The St. Louis (she was French, by the way) has been the subject of several HECEPOB (Hideously-Expensive-Continental-European-Plank-On-Bulkhead) wood kits, and at least one other plastic one - from Pyro.  The latter kit is currently being sold in a Lindberg box, with a silly label like "Sir Henry Morgan's Pirate Ship, or something similar.  The Airfix kit is definitely the one to get.

EPinniger wrote:

Thanks for the info! This seems to be one of those Airfix kits (the Endeavour and Prince are the other two in the Classic Ships range) which doesn't turn up very often. Possibly because (like the Prince) it isn't a well-known subject and most non-enthusiasts probably wouldn't have heard of it. This doesn't explain the Endeavour though - it's quite famous (at least here in the UK) but I've never seen the kit either on eBay or in a shop. Possibly the moulds have been damaged or lost?

As usual, I agree with Jorit on all counts.  I think it's especially interesting to ponder that Airfix version of the Prince alongside the old Board Room model of the ship.  We're accustomed to holding models of that sort in awe - for good reason.  It's worth noting, though, that the windows in the transom and quarter galleries of that model are represented by black-painted sheets of wood, with dots of gold paint where the window muntons would intersect.  The Airfix kit has three-dimensional representations of the muntons.  So which is the more accurate model?

I think I've got an Airfix Prince in my attic.  I confess that one reason I've never started it is that I've gotten into an odd mindset over the years:  a model of a ship-of-the-line from that period looks odd to me if the hull timbers below the wales aren't visible.  That's a silly attitude, of course, but I have to admit that in my case it's true.

I could read comments about Saint Louis by German modelers, they were talking about 3 models : the 1/144 Airfix one ; the 1/200 Heller and the 1/160 Pyro/Lindberg/Revell (same model sold by the three manufacturers). 

All 3 models must be almost the same size : the Heller one is closer to 1/150 scale.  German modelers seem to appreciate it.

Here is the boxart of the Heller model :

Michel

I wondered if anyone can help me, I have the Airfix 'Saint Louis' kit but don't have the instructions.  If anyone has them could they scan them and email them to me?  I havn't built it yet but it does look like a nice kit.

thanks,

Jim

I'm afraid I can't help with the instructions; I've never bought the kit. 

Michel - I wonder if, at some point in the intricate, interlocking history of the two companies, the Airfix St. Louis appeared in a Heller box.  I don't recall an originally Heller St.Louis - but Heller has issued so many sailing ship kits that I can't pretend to be familiar with all, or even most, of them.

According to J.C. Carbonel, in his book about Heller, there is a  Saint Louis model made by Heller in 1978, Ref 837 (it is not the Airfix model).  In his book about Airfix, Arthur Ward puts the Saint Louis in the list of new Airfix models for 1973.

Michel

Heller and Airfix only came under joint ownership from 1986, when Airfix was taken over by Humbrol, who already owned Heller. Before that date, there were no instances of Heller re-boxing Airfix kits, so it seems certain that the Heller St. Louis was  a Heller original product. Richard Humm's Airfix Kit List, widely recognised as the definitive source on the history of all individual Airfix kits and their various re-boxings, makes no reference to the Airfix St.Louis being re-issued by anyone else.

Cheers,

Chris.

chris hall wrote:

Heller and Airfix only came under joint ownership from 1986, when Airfix was taken over by Humbrol, who already owned Heller. Before that date, there were no instances of Heller re-boxing Airfix kits, so it seems certain that the Heller St. Louis was  a Heller original product. Richard Humm's Airfix Kit List, widely recognised as the definitive source on the history of all individual Airfix kits and their various re-boxings, makes no reference to the Airfix St.Louis being re-issued by anyone else. Cheers, Chris.

Same with JC Carbonel's list of Heller kits, in his book, Wasa is listed as an Airfix reboxed kit, but Saint Louis is an original Heller kit.

Michel

No, the Airfix Royal louis clearly is inspired by the Wasa and a famous contemporary gravure, it was a Dutch built ship and the Airfix interpretation of this ship is very plausible, it's a good kit! Only the decoration on the stern is a bit poor as we only know the profile. It has nothing to do with the Heller St Louis: this kit is based on the very same hull as their Couronne, the latter is based on the plan of the Musee de la Marine/ Paris.

Good morning

I'm just finishing the hull of Lindberg St. Louis (Sir Henry Morgan Pirate Ship).   The hull form looks much like the picture's I've found and when together fairly well.  I've only started the masts and don't yet know if they'll need modification.

I do have some comments.  The upper deck gun carriages are quite poor and the gun trunions to far forward, I replaced the guns from a spare Wappen Van Hamburg and the carriages from the scrap box.   The middle of quarter deck is open with an inaccessible pin rail; I decked it over and left a laddered opening and also added ladders to the forward edge.  The forecastle deck has an opening forward of the mast I also decked over and added ladders.  I'll need to modify the anti-boarding frame to allow ladder openings.

I think she'll be quite a nice model when I get finished. 

Captain Road Kill

The Lindberg St. Louis is the same as the old Pyro St. Louis (junk!); the latter has nothing to do with either the Heller or Airfix St. Louis. Confusing......huh!?

Max.

The Heller kit is indeed a "Heller original" that shares the hull with "Couronne" - but only the lower portion, from the upper gundeck upwards this is a different kit!

I don´t have any problems with this because "Couronne" as the first real big warship of French design was most likely based on the lines of the "imported" Saint Louis that was built in the Netherlands.

 The Heller kit has more parts than the Airfix one, with full guns on every deck. The heller ship is a bit wider and shallower in height than the Airfix ship, the stern ornament is -from what I have read, correctly- in fact just a cut-out-paper part that has to be glued onto a blank piece of plastic -the original is said to have been a painting!- while the Airfix kit carries real ornaments.

Overall, the Airfix kit looks a little more elegant but I like both kits - all in all there are not that many differences, while the Pyro kit is way overdone in its too pronounced lines (like the various HECEBOP kits of the Couronne BTW) and has a -to put it politely- "ornamental" looking wood grain structure.

 There is one bigger flaw in the Heller version: all the lower hull planks are parallel to the waterline and they do not become narrower to the front and stern ends - that´s not the way a ship is built, just easier to engrave!. A real pity and I do not know ANY other Heller ship kit that has the same issue, maybe at the time the molds had to be finished the guy who knew how to build ships was on holiday....

If there still is interest, I have the Airfix The Saint Louis kit and here is the pictures of this kit - a have made a presentation of this kit in Lithuanian modelers forum:

http://kvaksiuk.com/forum-lt/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=287&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10

about a year and a half ago there was a discussion as to whether these two kits were the same or not. luckily Warshipguy had the two kits and stated they there were in fact not the same molds. the airfix kit came in at a scale of 1/144 and the heller kit came in at 1/200.

/forums/p/98193/961524.aspx#961524

I have the Heller kit in my collection with the hull together but not compleated--the main difference is that the Heller kit gives you a full lower gun deck.

But scale of Saint Louis by Airfix is bigger, than by Heller. You can simply scrachbuild a lower gun deck.

They are most definately not the same kits although they appear to be slightly different variations of the same ship. The Airfix kit is molded in full-hull molds in port and starboard halves; the Heller kit not only has port and starboard lower hull halves but the upper works are seperate again.  The channel and main wales differ slightly, being spaced differently and there being three more widely spaced wales on the Heller kit and three more closely spaced ones on the Airfix kit.  Overall, the Heller kit contains four wales while the Airfix kit has five.  The castles differ in detail as well, as do the details of the head areas.  Also, the Airfix kit has dummy cannon for the main and lower gundecks while the Heller kit attempts to model the full cannon and rudimentary gundecks.  The models might be considered as simply slightly different interpretations of the same ship.

Bill Morrison