Recasting kits.

First do you really want to tackle a major project such as this. Your going to have to create a two part mold which probably will not give you the results you are looking for. To get the resin to travel down the gateways to all points and corners will not be an easy task. You'd have to break them into small sections. The mold making and casting are going to be tough and expensive...are you sure about this?

Why not lobby Academy to repop them?

First of all, unless you're made of money, fergit about it... You'll spend several hundred dollars just on the trial & error of building mold-boxes, making molds,  & pouring resin...  IMHO, it ain't worth it, unless this "Grail-kit" has only about eight parts...

Second, we all know you ain't made of money...

Third, if you absolutely insist on it, buy a casting kit, like Alumilite, and practice casting just part of ONE partial tree of parts from a kit you hate in a two-piece mold and get back to me on the results... Personally, I think you'll quit trying before you ever successfully cast ONE tree, let alone an entire kit's worth..

If it was easy and practical, everyone would would do it, Smeagol... Just casting single parts in a two-piece mold can drive you to drink with a rejection rate of about 3 outta 5 being the norm...

You'd be better off finding a professional shop to do the work for you, but your per unit kit cost will be way more than the original ever was...

But, to answer your question, you'll need mold-making material (RTV rubber and mold-boxes), casting resin, and LOTS of patience...

If it's the kit subject you want to keep building, I'd highly recommend that you build and learn how to vacuform sub assemblies and cast detail parts in resin and white metal...

This is something I really want to do, as much as it may cost, for a few reasons.  One them being extremly rare, I also doubt lobbying academy would work, because they would need to get permission from blizzard entertainment to do it, I would think, for the licensing, there kits based out of a game.

Second I have been wanting to try recasting anyhow for a while now, and this would be a good oppertunity I think

third, they only put out one kit, but put extra pieces for the variations on the unit (marine to medic or to firebat)

fourth, the second kit, alot of the pieces are vinyl and people say they have had a hard time with them, if I could even attempt to get it into a more... friendly medium, I'd be happy.

have you ever woked with the resin set micromark sells? http://www.micromark.com/COMPLETE-RESIN-CASTING-STARTER-SET,8174.html

Everything Hans said is essentially correct—been there, done that. From what you say, it's obviously worth the time and effort to you. However, vac-forming, as Hans said, is much easier and more economical.

Go to Smooth-on and Bare-Metal-Foil and read their tutorials. Both places will be happy to talk to you over the phone, too, and the Smooth-on folks are very helpful.

Three things you will need are a pressure pot, a compressor capable of generating at least 100 psi. These will reduce your failure rate to an acceptable level. The third is a spray booth or other ventilation system in the room where you do the casting.

And start small! I wouldn't try to make a mold of a whole tree. You can't replicate the styrene casting process, and the trees are designed for that process. You will need separate the parts and cast them that way. 

Like I said, it's all about how much you wanna spend... But you may as well forget the whole thing until you can cast multiple parts in one go, man... I'm not kidding, nor am I exaggerating about cost...

I've watched you work and post since I joined last summer, and I gotta say in all honesty that the one thing that you are consistant in is bein' broke...  Don't take this wrong, cuz I'm not trying to discourage you, only make you think a bit more before you go off and pour (pun intended) some real money down the drain after recieving a bunch of advice from well-meaning but misdirected modelers who could pull it off without much effort (just money)...  The theory is sound enough... It's putting it into practice that'll cost ya...  I've been casting parts for a long time, altogether about 20 years, and I wasn't kidding about rejection rates...

I have been wanting to try recasting anyhow for a while now, and this would be a good oppertunity I think

The scale of casting that you're talking about, with a kit as rare you claim, is no time to "try" it... You'd better have it down to a science before you even start using irreplacable masters for "Plinking" and be able to do it in your sleep...  Also, keep in mind that casting the entire tree would be a colossal waste of casting material... 40% of your resin outlay costs would be in making parts that aren't parts in the first place.. Best re-think that idea as well.. When you're casting your own stuff, you want as little sprue as possible in order to save money on resin... It's NOT cheap, although it gets cheaper by the gallon, for sure...

At any rate, I'll quit bustin' your chops about it, but highly advise that you "practice" on a some parts you don't care about or better yet, parts you'll have to use on a regular basis on other kit-types (I for instance, make several copies of certain kit parts that can be used on other kits, like radios, tires, wheels, and the like)  

Over the years, I've tried several different casting resins, and I'm happiest with Alumalite, but there's no single "best one" for every application that I'm aware of... It's all pretty subjective...

have you ever woked with the resin set micromark sells?

Micromark's good stuff, just not what I use most often... 

And start small! I wouldn't try to make a mold of a whole tree. You can't replicate the styrene casting process, and the trees are designed for that process. You will need separate the parts and cast them that way.

The above needed repeating..

Anyway, I won't belabor the points with you anymore, except to say once again, you would be well-advised to sink the money into getting a pro to cast your parts rather than doing yourself...  I'd also start by corresponding with some resin kit-makers and researching the process pretty extensively before you go any farther.. Follow-up Ross's links too... He's got some knowledge here..  Trust me, you ain't the first guy to think this idea up...

So much discouragement? We're modelers, gentlemen! We do what we like! (And often whether it's practical or not. I mean, what's really practical about modeling in the first place?) We learn from our personal mistakes, and grow in knowledge from getting our hands dirty and spending money we really don't have! We enjoy the journey! We enjoy the challenge! This is half the fun of what we do!

Hans is right in the point that it is not inexpensive to cast your own parts. Even MicroMark's smallest volume casting kit will set you back around $80 or so dollars. But Hans, if you have been casting for 20 years and still are getting an overall 60% failure rate, I'd suggest in the spirit of being helpful that there might be something wrong with your mold setup or technique (not a jab, don't take it as such). Even when I was casting without a pressure pot, my failure rate was never more than around 10-15%.

When I started using a pressure pot, my failure rate dropped to less than maybe 5%, quite acceptible. A pressure pot will indeed add to the cost, however. The pot will cost around $60 on sale from Harbor Freight, a decent compressor will be a minimum of around $150-$200.

If pressure pots and compressors are not a practical expenditure, you can minimize trapped air by "injecting" the resin (rather than pouring) into the mold, either with a plastic syringe or with a hairdresser's plastic hair color applicator squeeze bottle (available at most hair supply shops).

After basically teaching myself about molding and casting, I wrote a book about it for those starting out, to get them up and running faster than I did. So far I have sold over 100 copies, so there must be an audience for this subject. I started to design and make aftermarket sets for my own projects, and fund them by selling copies to other modelers.

Above: Home made cast resin cowl for Polikarpov I-16 (1:48)

Currently at my work, we're building a studio scale (around 6 ft long) Battlestar Galactica model ship, which is encrusted with resin copies of model kit parts, a few thousand of them. Their failure rate is maybe 1-2%. (But in all fairness it's important to remember they de-gas their silicone (under vacuum) before pouring a mold.) Molding and casting goes on all day long. I have since learned a great deal about mold layout. Both Hans and Gerald are quite right that it would be impractical to attempt to mold an entire tree of parts. Instead, you'll want to clip the parts, then arrange them closely on a slab of modeling clay. These are just rough details, we can go into greater detail if needed when you're actually ready to construct your molds.

Smeagol, I encourage you to follow your passion and curiosity on casting. Who knows? Your desire to learn today might cause you to end up being the newest big wheel in aftermarket resin tomorrow. For me, my dabbling in casting helped to get me a job later when my professional career (real estate appraisal) collapsed from the housing/lending crisis. I say go for it, dude.

Regards-

ModelNerd wrote:

<snip> getting an overall 60% failure rate, I'd suggest in the spirit of being helpful that there might be something wrong with your mold setup or technique (not a jab, don't take it as such). Even when I was casting without a pressure pot, my failure rate was never more than around 10-15%.

Mine ran anywhere from 15 to 60%. Mold setup, chosing the best resin, etc. is non-trivial, and the only way to really learn seems to be the Edison approach (finding 1000 things that don't work on the way to finding the one that does.) 

ModelNerd wrote:

<snip>A pressure pot will indeed add to the cost, however. The pot will cost around $60 on sale from Harbor Freight <snip>

I keep forgetting about Harbor Freight! Thanks, Mark!

BTW, where is your book available? Smeagol the Vile might want a copy (so might I—no doubt  there's something in it I haven't figured out yet.) 

I'm not trying to discourage Smeagol... I'm tryin' to encourage him to first crawl, then walk, then run... After 20 or so years, I'm confident in my "walk-phase"...   For instance, pressure pots and such? I never even had an airbrush compressor until 6 months ago, lol..  Smeagol might just suddenly tweak onto something I, you, or anyone else never thought of and *poof*, become the next Resin Baron, as you correctly point out...  I just don't wanna see him give up because it got "too much, too soon"...

Sorry Smeagol, don't mean to talk like you ain't here...  Many of my castings were not resin either.. I used a lot of different techniques and materials, mostly re-inventing the wheel... Using plasters, auto-body fillers, various silicones, melting styrene into foil molds... just about everything except what I shoulda used in the first damn place, lol... Heck, I figure 40% was sustainable since I didn't spend a lot of money in the first place, y'know...  At any rate, I ain't shootin' him down, just covering his 6...  And should you ever decide you need to donate a copy of your book to a broke-azz college student that goes ape-ca-ca over sci-fi, well...

this is something I definatly want to learn, especially for like, trying new techniques and stuff, why ruin the main piece when you can make a few copies of it to work on. as well as for casting things like weapons helmets accessors etc.

Well, 100$ isnt ALOT of money to me, im comfortable spending 100$ if im going to get something for it, but more, then its an issue, at one time, like if I had to buy 80$ kit from micromark then another 50$ in stuff, that would be a problem

What EXACTLY would I need?

Triarius wrote:

...I keep forgetting about Harbor Freight! Thanks, Mark! BTW, where is your book available? Smeagol the Vile might want a copy (so might I—no doubt  there's something in it I haven't figured out yet.)

No problem Ross.

If I mention where to get the book here, the brownshirts will likely take offense, so I'll just say have you visited my website lately?

smeagol the vile wrote:

...What EXACTLY would I need?

I'd start with this: Item #82698 at www.micromark.com

http://www.micromark.com/COMPLETE-RESIN-CASTING-STARTER-SET,8174.html

This should be more than enough to get started.

To inject resin into your completed mold, you can obtain a large plastic syringe from most medical supply houses, or a needle-tipped hair color squeeze bottle from a local hair salon supply store. Then, pursuant to Ross' question, have a look at my website.

All this can be purchased for around $100.

smeagol the vile wrote:

no I really appreciate the tips Hans, where would I go about finding someone to recast it for me and how much would one cost

Don't expect a reputable person to do this for you. They would be violating copyright laws. Doing it yourself for your own use is a gray area as far as legality goes and giving, selling, exchanging, or distributling these in any way is clearly a violation of copyright. Take a look around some of the other nodeling sites to see how pirates are reviled in the hobby, even for OOP stuff.

If you have one rob, that would be amazing.

As far as the copyright laws, I know people dislike recasters, but if these are for personal use and to build myself I dont see a problem, especially if there discontinued kits that you can BARLEY even find info about online if you look hard

ajlafleche wrote:

smeagol the vile wrote: no I really appreciate the tips Hans, where would I go about finding someone to recast it for me and how much would one cost Don't expect a reputable person to do this for you. They would be violating copyright laws. Doing it yourself for your own use is a gray area as far as legality goes and giving, selling, exchanging, or distributling these in any way is clearly a violation of copyright. Take a look around some of the other nodeling sites to see how pirates are reviled in the hobby, even for OOP stuff.

You'd be skirting all kinds of legal boundaries here.

I also agree with Hans that you're in way over your head here before you're even in up to your ankles. If you're truly trying to cast kits this rare, you might run the danger of ruining the actual kit or losing/ruining the parts before you even build one of them.

the doog wrote:

...I also agree with Hans that you're in way over your head here before you're even in up to your ankles. ...

Excuse me, but everyone's "in way over their head" before they try something new, no? When you first picked up a guitar, you were in way over your head. But you learned by doing, and then you were no longer in over your head, eh?

Smeagol, again I say don't let anyone discourage you. If you have the confidence and desire to try something new such as casting, go for it. It's not rocket science, and it's really not that difficult, overall. You have all the support and help you will need to be successful at it.

ModelNerd wrote:

the doog wrote: ...I also agree with Hans that you're in way over your head here before you're even in up to your ankles. ... Excuse me, but everyone's "in way over their head" before they try something new, no? When you first picked up a guitar, you were in way over your head. But you learned by doing, and then you were no longer in over your head, eh?

"Everything worthwhile takes time".--best advice I ever got. I still give it today.

Occasionally, one of my first or second-year guitar students will come to me and ask me if I know anywhere that they can record their own CD. Mind you, they're still only learning, do not have anywhere near what could be called a reasonable "command" of the instrument, and they're playing on $200.00 just-above-crap instruments.

And yet they want to spend $1,000 or so to record a CD when they barely know how to compose songs. Instead of spending that money (for kids who have little to begin with) on a CD that will embarrass them in two years, I advise them to spend their money on better equipment, and take the proper time to actually become a musician first before wasting that hard-earned money. 

It's a question of putting the cart before the horse. Smeagol wants to do a full kit cast--without ever having cast even so much as a jerry can before, or even knowing the stuff he needs to begin? Not real sage advice, in my view, to urge him forth with idealistic platitudes that are going to cost him a lot of money--which, as Hans has pointed out--we all know he doesn't have, without trying to steer him down a more cost-effective and realistic path which will better inform him as to both his abilities, and the complexities of casting--and then he can better judge where he stands as far as his finances, his resolve, and his expectations. 

Almost every one of my students who has taken my advice has returned to thank me when they finally could, and did, record a CD or song that they were proud to distribute.Though I doubt smeagol would be "embarrassed" of his efforts, without some expeimentation before attemp such a complex effort,he might well rue the day that he embarked on this endeavor with more wishful thinking than relevant wisdom.

But hey, it's your choice, smeagol. I myself would personally content myself with having the kits in my possession, and know that I could just hang on to them until I get some confidence under my belt with regard to casting, and then I could always cast them in one or two years, if it even took that long?

smeagol the vile wrote:

woah, woah, woah, who ever said I was going to attempt doing the kit at my first go?  you guys know me, and I that stupid?  Of course im going to practce, there are alot of weapons and figure kits I'd like to have multiple copies of for hacking purposes, especially like that esci partisans kit.  I also have a HUGE tub of junk and scrap for scratchbuilding that I could use, I'm in no way going to start off with this rare kit, what do I look like, a singer?

Good man, Steve! In that case, go slow, learn, and save those kits until you feel confident that you won't screw up those rare gems in the pocess and waste a lot of cash!

the doog wrote:

...Uh, yeah, but you're overlooking that I didn't run before I could walk. ... ... Not real sage advice, in my view, to urge him forth with idealistic platitudes that are going to cost him a lot of money--which, as Hans has pointed out--we all know he doesn't have, without trying to steer him down a more cost-effective and realistic path which will better inform him as to both his abilities, and the complexities of casting--and then he can better judge where he stands as far as his finances, his resolve, and his expectations....

Karl, I'm sorry to correct you again, but if you had paid better attention, you would have observed that I was indeed responding with sound advice for the typical beginner - which included picking up a book geared for the beginner, which would explain everything a beginner needs to know before setting out. (How exactly did you miss that?!) Further, I posted him a link to a (relatively) inexpensive starter set, which met his limited budget.(Again, how did you miss that?!?)

As Smeagol confirmed, I never expected he was going to attempt to cast an entire kit right off the bat - that would be an unrealistic expectation, and did not need to be mentioned.

Further, it is a shame that you brought only more discouragement, and offered him nothing in the way of helpful advice on how he can get started on his journey. Instead, right off the bat you tell him he's "over his head". Ouch. I would think a modeler of your exceptional skill would have more to say in the way of positive advice or encouragement.

Thank you for clarifying your intentions, Mark.

Back to the bench.

Why go the recasting route, these kits are finable on Ebay for reasonable prices:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/MIXED-2-KITS-ACADEMY-HYDRALISK-MARINE-PLASTIC-KTS_W0QQitemZ190292199730QQihZ009QQcategoryZ1193QQcmdZViewItem

smeagol the vile wrote:

As far as finding someone goes, the guy whos selling it was commissioned to build these and recast a ton for someone as a dio (whoever comissioned was nuts) but they backed out, which is why hes selling the kits, though, he says hell be willing to cast me a bunch for cost of materials.

He brokek the law by recasting these kits. It doesn't matter if he owned the kits before he cast them--by selling them as part of a diorama, he is technically breaking the law, and I suspect that possibly the buyer opted out when he mayhave realized that?

In nay case, if this guy is the "business" of recasting entire kits, I would give him a wide berth. If there is an investigation into him, you could wind up getting caught in the web as a recipient of stolen property.

the doog wrote:

smeagol the vile wrote: As far as finding someone goes, the guy whos selling it was commissioned to build these and recast a ton for someone as a dio (whoever comissioned was nuts) but they backed out, which is why hes selling the kits, though, he says hell be willing to cast me a bunch for cost of materials. smeagol, I hate to tell you this, but if you are receiving any of these "recast" kits, then you are now in possession of stolen property. You could be arrested if this guy is investigated. It's no different than buying "burned" CD's, or bootlegged DVDs. He brokek the law by recasting these kits. It doesn't matter if he owned the kits before he cast them--by selling them as part of a diorama, he is technically breaking the law, and I suspect that possibly the buyer opted out when he mayhave realized that? In nay case, if this guy is the "business" of recasting entire kits, I would give him a wide berth. If there is an investigation into him, you could wind up getting caught in the web as a recipient of stolen property.

Amen to that. The person who engaged him to recast them is complicit with the illegal act. All of the stuff he has is illegal. If you bought/have them, you are in possession of stolen (intellectual) property and if you recast them, you are still breaking the law.

I raised a rhetorical question about Infinity Shape's Last of the Mohicans figure here. This is a great figure that disappeared when Infinity Shape suddenly went out of business. Of interest are comments from sculptors, such as Alan Ball, who makes a living creating masters.