Realistic photography

Yeah i could do it like Hans Stug, which looks very cool lighting, but does nothing to show off the model.

Well, in the StuG's case, it was what you really DON'T want in a diorama, which is the model being a supporting factor in the story... However, in this case, it works because the dio is based on a Bill Mauldin "Willie & Joe" comic... The gag is Willie & Joe in the hole with the telephone to their field artillery FDC, and the "target" they got being right on top of their OP...

A better shot would have been a close-up of our heroes in the hole, with just enough of the StuG showing to be able to tell what it is, same way Mauldin drew it...

The rest of the shots would then be focused on the model.. But for the "Reader Gallery"-type of shot, since you only get one try at it, you need to decide if you're going with the "story" or the model...

Generally, if I'm shooting model and detail shots, a simple light blue background, with as few distractions as possible, is preferrable... I'll add a few spray-painted "clouds" if it's an aircraft...

Plus a detail shot:

I would agree with Dre, i too have been a pro photog for over 30 years. For me alot of it depends on what it is i'm photographing. I treat models more differntly than say people, nature or buildings.

My main focus with models is to show off the detail of the model, and not so much of the lighting coming from a certain direction casting shadows. Yeah i could do it like Hans Stug, which looks very cool lighting, but does nothing to show off the model. But that's what he was wanting a more "look like the real thing".

I just use backgrounds to inhance the model, not so much to make it look realistic. Everybody has their own preference on what they like, and with lighting, there really isn't a wrong or right way.

Hans von Hammer,

Glad to hear you are up and about, I hope the surgery fixes up whatever has been keeping you down!

Great example of shadow box forced perspective modeling. Different scales in the same scene really add depth.

Thanks, SF... One more surgery and I'll be at 100%...  Supposed to get the second hip replaced in about 4 more months...

Yeah, and that's exactly what Hollywood does on sound-stages... The afore-mention "Blue Max" dio looks like  the Stachel figure and the Dr 1 are about a quarter mile apart, but the actual depth of the box is about a foot...

Let me explain why I prefer shooting around noon.  This keeps the shadows shorter and in the vicinity of the model.  My bases are actually part of the photo backdrop. I take the lower part of the photo and expand it a lot, asymmetrically in my photo editor, about three times more in height/depth.  The shadows must stay on the base portion, not climb up the vertical backdrop.  This looks weird and screws up the perspective.  So I want shadows, but not long ones.  Using long shadows from low sun angles would require a very large base.

El Taino,

Excellent photography, obviously its more than a hobby to you

Hans von Hammer,

Glad to hear you are up and about, I hope the surgery fixes up whatever has been keeping you down!

Great example of shadow box forced perspective modeling. Different scales in the same scene really add depth.

Well made it out to the soccer field at 7:00 am. Took a few shots of some models in the attempt of achieving some sort of realism, the sand flies had their breakfast chewing my arms yet had moderate success:

The trees would not fly for a background on this Panzer IV desert campaign, placed a suitably colored rock in the background instead:

And for something different went down town to a dilapidated brick wall. Had to squeeze through a hole in the fence, felt like I was breaking the law so this photograph is rather rushed. Think if the figure was raised to eye level and a bit closer to the brick wall it would be more realistic, could not locate my tripod this morning so just placed the figure on a few rocks. 

"Forced Perspective", which is crucial in most "in-flight" shadow-boxed dioramas, is done easily by mixing scales... Here's an example (although it's not a shadow-box), with models built and photographed Heinz Johannsen of Rendsburg, Germany.  The Mustang is 1/24th and the Me 262 is 1/48, allowing the models to be only a few inches apart, yet giving them a realistic scale distance..

 Also notice that the models themselves are "off-balance", thus giving the viewer a better sense of "action" taking place, since neither one can stay that way without soon having to change diredtion in order to either escape or maintain contact...

This's "Old School" model photography (What else ya expect from me?), with no PS involved...The models are suspended vertically over a horizontal backdrop and held in place with  stands that have alligator clips on the end to allow them to be positioned "just so", and lit to match the lighting of the backdrop...

The camera is on a stand as well, looking "down" on the diorama, as this allows the stands to hidden from the camera by the models themselves...

Here's a (very) rough sketch of the set-up..

My current shadow-box project is the scene from The Blue Max , in which Stachel's Pfalz D III is shot down by SE-5s after he saves MvRs life... I'm using the Monogram 1/72 Fokker Dr 1 from the "Red Baron" car kit in the back, the Eduard 1/48th Pfalz D-III at center, and the 1/28th figures from the Revell kits of the Dr 1 to create "Stachel", who is standing on the ground, wounded in the arm,  away from his burning Pfalz, watching the Baron waggle his wings as he flies away, and mouthing the words, "You son of a B*tch..", in the foreground...

Whattaya do about "lens flare" when shooting into the sun, El-Tee?

Thankee, Fire-man...

I'm not in the chair anymore, Sup-Fire.. I've been out of it for some 2 months now... But until last April, I'd been confined to it for almost three years waiting on surgery from the VA... I'll be going back into it in about 4 months for a few weeks, then should be done with it for good... I'm getting around with crutches on bad days, a pair of canes on a good one... Yesterday was a good day, lol..

Well, I still use it as a modeling bench chair as it's the most comfortable one If ever owned... 

Doogs, the B & W Pony-shot is excellent... That's the effect I was talking about, the "Combat Photographer" look... If that finish woulda been dead-flat (and the afore-mention grass mat fixed), it'd have been a "10", IMHO.. But "9." ain't bad either...

Can't do much now about the out-of-scale panel lines, but that's the model's fault..

The only time when I go out for mid day photography is when I'm doing Infrared. The harsher the light, the better. For everything else, early morning, late afternoon.

Taken in my 2nd home, Minnesota.

As for the topic, what gives away the models is not the light but depth-of-field. It would be like going to an air show, pull back and shoot the aircraft with the lens below. There is image stacking software to deal with that.

Hans & Doogs,

Excellent results!

Doogs, the background looks very Montana, not Hanna but the country side.

Very convincing work. My only comment is the wrinkle under the tail and the tail wheel itself being sunk in the simulated grass. Try a stronger strain of grass for better results.

Hans, perfect composition! I see you were a early bird and got the photograph at first light. The bit of trees seen in the background adds depth & realism to the scene.

For someone confined to a wheel chair you sure get around! Never would have thought you were mobility challenged.

Alright all...more PS fun until I can get my hands on more grass...

What'ya think?

DURR

i am not against the use of PS  nor am i critisizing  those who use it     but in a sense it takes some of the fun  and some of one's imagination out of the equation  sort of like reading the book vs seeing the movie  if you get my meaning

Guess I don't get that, no.

The way I see it, if realistic photography - i.e. something that the casual observer might reasonably confuse for the real thing - is the desired goal, there are basically four considerations.

1 - A realistic perspective. This usually means eye-level. Easy enough.

2 - Unless it's a night scene, a single, powerful source of light that casts single shadows.

3 - What's underneath your model and does it look convincing?

4 - What's behind your model and does it look convincing?

To me...forced perspective by scaling down, or by shooting in front of distant (real) trees, or by leveraging Photoshop's capabilities...they're all part of the same idea. 

Honestly, and least for me, my imagination is a lot less constrained within Photoshop than it is in reasonable real-life background options. Now...the MacGuyver-like ingenuity to pull off some physical shooting...that I'll grant. 

Now that I finally don't live in the middle of town in a three-story walk-up, I'll be able to get some outdoor shots of m' dios...  Being as I was in a wheelchair for three years kinda precluded me from getting outside with built subjects, since I had to use bth arms to get the chair down the stairs, and follow it down on my azz...

By then, I was too wrecked to go back up and get the diorama...

Anyway, I threw one together real quick (it's one of my old dios that didn't fair to well in the move, and I just wanted to see how my camera would make it look) and took a few shots out back of the house..

          "Able Fox Five to Able Fox. I got a target, but ya gotta be patient..."

This is really turning into a interesting thread!

Everyone who contributed made valid points with photos to back it up.

That being said the challenge is to get out there and take some realistic photographs of your models

(No silicone)

I maybe a few days before posting anything new, it seems the rain is returning.

If the AM looks good I will git R' done! (Have a perfect location for something a bit different)

Beautiful shot of a great diorama... But as far as realistic goes, it's obviously not since the sun is behind the clouds and that means so is the lighting source...  If the sun was behind the photographer, then it'd work better....

For a scene like that, since it's obviously in the Atlantic, an overcast sky would be better, IMHO... It'd also add a "mood" to action...  I'd shadow-box that baby to control the lighting on that one... A small fluorescent tube on top of tissue paper to difuse the lighting would do it... Still, it's one of the best "water" dios I've ever seen... 

Frankly, I'd wanna make my model photos look like it was taken by a GI on the ground with his Kodak 110 or the like...  Y'know, one of the crew snaps a shot of his crew and his ride... At best, I'd want it to look like that grainy "combat photographer" stuff...

The above shot is my M109 around noon, shot with a Kodak 110... So for a model, the lighting would be just as harsh, since I don't want an "Artsy" photograph, I want a "Real or Memorex" moment..

Dre

Hawkeye, that is precisely why I am offended (actually, I should have said annoyed, sorry)- I AM a multi-award winning professional photographer with just under 20 years experience in the news and commercial side of it.  I've even been on a Pulitzer-award winning staff (Bristol Herald Courier 2010 Pulitzer for Public Service).   But I don't come here to brag on about the real-world work that I do, so you didn't know any of that..

Good photogs make the best of what light is available, without excuses and that's just that.

 

Anyhoo, I do like  the pics that you post.

Dre, I'm glad you lowered your emotion from offended to annoyed. While I certainly agree that good photographers use what is handed them, and there is no substitute for understanding f-stops and depth of field, and how to capture light, but why even be annoyed by Gerald's statement? Because he used "good" instead of "most"?

While I'm not an award winning photographer (nor do I play one on TV), I have been involved with cameras for coming on forty years, and have spent considerable time studying the subject. At one time I had a 4"x5" view camera, and spent hours agonizing over tiny details, such as the best time of day to capture light. If I consider an image important enough, I will plan the best conditions possible, and that may well include high noon in the blinding light. But on the whole, I would encourage amateurs to seek out those times where the light will be more favorable, and that is usually early morning or late afternoon. Certainly every single book I own on the subject (and I own a bunch, let me tell you!) talk about how that light is often preferred.

i am not against the use of PS  nor am i critisizing  those who use it     but in a sense it takes some of the fun  and some of one's imagination out of the equation  sort of like reading the book vs seeing the movie  if you get my meaning

Hawkeye, that is precisely why I am offended (actually, I should have said annoyed, sorry)- I AM a multi-award winning professional photographer with just under 20 years experience in the news and commercial side of it.  I've even been on a Pulitzer-award winning staff (Bristol Herald Courier 2010 Pulitzer for Public Service).   But I don't come here to brag on about the real-world work that I do, so you didn't know any of that..

Good photogs make the best of what light is available, without excuses and that's just that.

Anyhoo, I do like  the pics that you post.

DoogsATX

Kevin - in addition to the tree line linke I provided above, check this site out:

http://www.cgtextures.com/

One thing I notice with your BRDM is that the light direction is different. Also, the background is darker than the foreground. All things to play with in P-shop!

Thanks and appreciate the links. I know that I have a ways to go before I'll be satisfied but the BRDM photo was taken by someone else but I can also see the reverse in the photos that are mine.

Kevin - in addition to the tree line linke I provided above, check this site out:

http://www.cgtextures.com/

One thing I notice with your BRDM is that the light direction is different. Also, the background is darker than the foreground. All things to play with in P-shop!

I too have been trying to get some good compositions, mostly with photoshop. I have not been too successful in finding proper looking 'backdrops' to photograph. I have recently upped my photographing equipment with additional lenses etc on the way and I hope to have better luck with that in the very near future. The cost of having backdrops printed (at a Kinkos type place) large enough for 1/35th scale has always been a question that I have yet to ask.

Via photoshop... (and you may have seen these previously) I am not completely happy with these but it was a start several years ago.  Still not all that happy. Background photos pulled from the internet and tweaked.

Hoping to improve.

My BRDM photographed by Steve Zaloga many years ago using his photo backdrop method...

Dre

 

HawkeyeHobbies:

 

Good photographers never photograph at high noon or mid day as the lighting is too harsh. The best time is the golden hours, early morning and late afternoon/evening. Shadows tell stories too!

 

 

I've been quietly watching this thread with interest as there are some very informative posts in here about photographing one's models, but I have to say that I'm pretty well offended by this statement.

That said, carry on.

Dre not to offend but when you read or talk to professional photographers who are well published and/or award winners they often tell others their secret is that mid day is the worst time to take pictures so they don't. Its not that this is a stead fast rule because sometimes it becomes a requirement...but given the choice they tend to prefer not to.

As I said shadows tell a story too and when the sun is low on the horizon the natural light is richer and warmer.

If you were to attend AirVenture you'd notice that the air to air photograph missions are scheduled and flown during these periods because of they offer the best lighting. Morning shoots are good because the light continues to increase, but the dusk shots are preferred by many because of the rich colors the sun offers at that time of the day.

Check out my friend's site who I consider one of the best in the business! Another one who've I've had the pleasure of attending his seminars.

You could even shoot your model or diorama against the setting/rising sun...to get lighting effects like these.

Here's another example of a late afternoon shot...head on with an R44. If this would have been taken mid day...the glare would have been less than satisfactory...this way the setting sun highlights those inside notice the sun reflecting off the glass.

HawkeyeHobbies

Good photographers never photograph at high noon or mid day as the lighting is too harsh. The best time is the golden hours, early morning and late afternoon/evening. Shadows tell stories too!

I've been quietly watching this thread with interest as there are some very informative posts in here about photographing one's models, but I have to say that I'm pretty well offended by this statement.

That said, carry on.

FYE - if anybody wants to play in Photoshop, found some excellent tree lines at this link:

http://twilightrender.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=12338

HawkeyeHobbies

Good photographers never photograph at high noon or mid day as the lighting is too harsh. The best time is the golden hours, early morning and late afternoon/evening. Shadows tell stories too!

Definitely true in general - I know I HATE shooting outside in Texas in the summer because the day is so long and the sun so high that you've essentially got noon-ish shooting conditions from 11-6.

But...I'd argue that there's an exception to every rule, and a lot of times photos of the real subjects we're modeling were shot by average photographers or shot in the available light. For example...

So if you're going for something that looks realistic, sometimes a "high noon" shot can actually work to your advantage!

A forced perspective shot is a good way to shoot a subject when the resources for backgrounds are minimal or not available at all. Yes mixing scales is a method, I've done it a number of times, especially when doing aircraft in formation flight. The key or trick again here is proper spacing between subjects/objects to equal out the scale effect properly.

I think I'm going to give this a go. There's a company that makes a ton of 1/72 scale WWII air field structures and whatnot...think it'd be awesome to have the control tower or a quonset hut lingering off in the background.

Get low! Get your camera down below the subject as much as possible to fill the background with sky and create a sense of size. A P-47 is a big fighter, even if you build 1:72 you can portray its mass by proper shooting techniques.

This works really well for "studio" shot as well as more realistic stuff. I usually do a few overhead shots to show the shape/camoflage/markings/etc, but always have several low, eye-level shots.

I'm definitely looking forward to taking all this to another level...just...TIME. I need the time!

I used to always use a background when photographing my models, i havn't done it in awhile.
But if you go to my site you will see alot of where i used PS, i would also fade the background a bit
so  the model would stand out more.

Good photographers never photograph at high noon or mid day as the lighting is too harsh. The best time is the golden hours, early morning and late afternoon/evening. Shadows tell stories too!

A forced perspective shot is a good way to shoot a subject when the resources for backgrounds are minimal or not available at all. Yes mixing scales is a method, I've done it a number of times, especially when doing aircraft in formation flight. The key or trick again here is proper spacing between subjects/objects to equal out the scale effect properly.

Get low! Get your camera down below the subject as much as possible to fill the background with sky and create a sense of size. A P-47 is a big fighter, even if you build 1:72 you can portray its mass by proper shooting techniques.

Example this Parasol Wing (What-If) I made looks much more impressive in this shot because you can see the underside of the wing.

versus this one...

Here is how I rigged my Zep to photograph it..again I shot from below the level of the model to portray it was flying above me.

sometimes a touch of darkness creates a perfect touch. After all there are 24 hours in a day.

Get some action or life into your shots too...just adding a couple figures can do just that.

Here is a very simple setup...a grass base and a sky image pasted to a sheet of posterboard. You can find both at any place model railroading accessories are sold. Again the low angle.

One last tip...If you're using a flash and your camera has a lens hood...take the lens hood off! Otherwise the hood will cast a shadow onto your subject. Like this!

Don - your low Minnesota sun would actually be very accurate for a lot of WWII subjects (Rome being on the same latitude as New York and all).

Besides the heat and intensity of the sun here right now...it's also ridiculously for me to find time to shoot outdoors during the day due to 1) work and 2) wife and kids would never give me that kind of uninterrupted time!