Aircraft weathering - accuracy or artful technique

Would you guys still not consider "overdone"....

A low viz F-14 with just 3 shades of gray --- 2 shades being the base color, and the third splattered evenly all around as patchwork.  Like the deck crew took all the spray cans on board and went crazy one morning. And the tails remaining immaculate.

An AF F-4 heavily and uniformly oxidized as to look like it spent time in Davis Monthan, but obviously representing an operatonal unit. It's got RBF tags and bombs. 

or a French jet  with Tigermeet markings and livery almost turned black because of what I'd call sludge wash?

Id give our fellow modelers some slack. They may not have seen all you've seen as far as real birds go, but we haven't seen the aircraft models they've seen and talk about.

;)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we don't immediately brand a heavily weathered model "overdone" just because it's heavily weathered. Im a fan of weathered planes myself, even weathered my B737 (its in these forums somewhere)!

But the way a modeler does the heavy weathering is quite another thing. It could be in the style, the pattern (yes some of what I've seen sported patterns lol)! etc. In the examples I mentioned, I asked the builders, and at least one of them honestly said its "art."

I don't mind seeing heavily weathered aircraft, but most often the way it is applied does not look natural.  An example would be a two tone surface.  All the edges of the camouflage are still virgin from any wear, and only the centers of the shapes are weathered.  

regards,

Jack

Hey !

 I usually err on the lite side . It took three days to clean my real bird an let's face it after surviving WW 2 She was no Hangar Queen .

 For the most part my planes are done to reflect natural metals as in post WW -2 and Pre Vietnam . My real bird had paint on her outside from delivery till I sold her .

     After all , how clean is an old B-25 gonna be , if it flies ? And she is still doing that , albeit in FarnBorough , England . Gosh , I miss the old gal . I just don't miss the costs involved .

 Life changed and I still love the old bird .      T.B.

If you look at model building as an artistic expression, then there is no wrong or right way to weather, if you build for historical accuracy then thre is a wrong and right way to weather.

I usually build both ways, some times I like something as close to the orginal as possible, otther times I just build what pleases me.

I have never been a fan of shading panel lines with black. I never thought that technique looked accurate in any sense of the word. Some modelers handle the technique better than others, but most go overboard and everything looks too tidy. I have browsed thousands of WWII photos and I have never come across anything resembling the technique of line shading. That dosent make the technique wrong, or bad, I just dont find it accurate, unless handled skillfully and in moderation.

I disagree. Building models is a hobby to be enjoyed by everyone, young and old. There is not a definitive black and white, either, or, to model building. There are many reasons why someone may enjoy this hobby, and it should be fun above all else. Why would anyone want to spend hours doing something they do not enjoy? Many people just want to put something together to put on a shelf and have little care in the authenticity of their creation. I like to put together a clean build every now and then, or I just may put together a cheap old kit, and spruce it up with out going overbaord, because I find weekend builds to be fun. Other times I may take months building a kit. I am not commisioned by anyone to build accurate models, nor would I enjoy doing so. Many modelers experiment with new techniques, or are just trying to improve on old techniques. Why would you look down your nose at such people? Thats pretty harsh when talking about someone who is doing something for enjoyment. If your a die hard historian and need everything accurate, thats fine, but calling others bad modelers because they may not share your views is just pure nonsense and inaccurate.

First and foremost, have fun. Artist do live and breathe and many enjoy this hobby.

spiralcity

I disagree. Building models is a hobby to be enjoyed by everyone, young and old. There is not a definitive black and white, either, or, to model building. There are many reasons why someone may enjoy this hobby, and it should be fun above all else. Why would anyone want to spend hours doing something they do not enjoy? Many people just want to put something together to put on a shelf and have little care in the authenticity of their creation. I like to put together a clean build every now and then, or I just may put together a cheap old kit, and spruce it up with out going overbaord, because I find weekend builds to be fun. Other times I may take months building a kit. I am not commisioned by anyone to build accurate models, nor would I enjoy doing so. Many modelers experiment with new techniques, or are just trying to improve on old techniques. Why would you look down your nose at such people? Thats pretty harsh when talking about someone who is doing something for enjoyment. If your a die hard historian and need everything accurate, thats fine, but calling others bad modelers because they may not share your views is just pure nonsense and inaccurate.   First and foremost, have fun. Artist do live and breathe and many enjoy this hobby.

    A very fine statement.  I may be wrong, but I feel a lot of people don't post pictures because they are uncomfortable posting their version of modeling "fun".  There is an amazing pool of talent here , and I throughly enjoy seeing their "artistic" and "realistic" creations.  I would also like to see pictures of less ambitious modeling done for fun.  It would increase traffic and make us more close knit.  

    I do get better as I continue to model, but it isn't a goal.  For the last few years I have found that I like the finishing process less.  I love the building part.  I'm probably going to end up with a lot of models where the only paint will be on the interiors.  I would feel like a heretic showing that on the FSM forum, but it's the only way to visually show that I"m having fun modeling.

     Maybe the magazine could add a subsection for " Not Ready For Prime Time Fun".  I am going to post pictures this year.  There are a couple of group builds I'm interested in and I plan to join and finish them, paint and all.

                                                                                 gk

It is just a hobby, and we all get content from it in differant ways. If some are just happy to throw it together and call it done, thats their choice. If others choose to go the artistic route, again, thats there choice.

Karl and myself are at opposite ends of the debate, but i have learnt as much from him as anyone else. I learnt to push myself and strive to improve. Even if in the end i decided that Karls end resuylts were not what i wnated to achieve, i was still able to learn.

Bish

 

 

I would certainly agree with your preferance for accuracy over artistic, though i definatly would not use the term carictures, i certainly don't agree that the artistic approach is done to cover up faults or because of laziness.

 

As I said, there's got to be more going on here than meets the eye...?

The weathering debate has got to be the atomic bomb of modeling topics.

I've been modeling since 1976-77.  My real career has gotten in the way now and then, like all of us.  I've always tried to learn. I remember going into the old Ace Hobbies in Manhatten in the 80's, used to go in every time I was working in town.  They had a large display case of models that were at a level I had never seen before. These were armor models in 1/35th scale that looked real. And I mean real. I've always held myself to that standard, and will never forgot that place or experience.

I write professionally. In writing there's a saying that fiction is the stylized rendition of reality. I can tell you if it's not, it doesn't work commercially.

For a military scale model to appear as reality it needs something more than just paint. Auto or F1 models can be extrememly clean and still look real. Military models not so much.

So anyone should be able to do whatever they want to do. There are very few color photographs from WWII to help us.  I try to stay accurate, but I am not a rivet counter per se. My BR-52 is stylized from one example in a museum, theres nothing to confirm the camo was used in the war.

I'm now completing the large Revell A-400. This is a new aircraft that is very clean. In order to achive some level of reality I'll have to do something to it. A wash of some type, otherwise it will look like a very detailed well built toy. This would be different than weathering a Spitfire after it flew a week of sorties in 1941.

Overall aircraft are a totally different weathering beast than that used for armor, for obvious reasons too long to list.  Aircraft, Armor, Ships....were talking apples, oranges, and bananas.

I try not to go overboard with weathring, but have at times.

 As long as you're having fun and keeping yourself to your own standards of excellence, wherever that is, then you win.  Unless you are commisioned by a museum etc. then accuracy would become much more important.

I consider myself a master modeler and realize that I'll never stop learning or getting better. However realize that almost none of the products that are available today existed for the modelers that created those models at Ace, all those years ago,  that are the benchmark of excellence I continue to aspire to.

well this is getting annoyingly interesting.

i am a technical illustrator and a graphics artist which seems oddly similar to the realism and artistic thoughts on modeling. what that means is i professionally draw for accuracy UNLESS it doesn't look right or convey the correct information in the training manual. than i get a little artsy so the student understands the drawing. 

as i menrtioned earlier i gravitate towards the arttistic side when it comes to painting and weathering, hopefully with some common sense thrown in because that is part of the fun.

I have used weathering and excess stowage to cover "mistakes" and I HAVE DONE IT 1-1 SCALE. we had a desert camo scheme on my tanks when i got to germany. we had to have 30% sand so, when we repainted, we looked at our load plans and painted all those areas sand that would be covered by track blocks, road wheels, duffle bags, etc. guess that counts as hiding "mistakes."

i have had modern tanks, even my new A2s, look pink after 3 weeks in the field in a red clay area, thick mud on the underside and dinged fenders.  after the wash rack and a good cleaning they look pristine on the pad. funny though on the pad the end conectors, steel wear plates and metal parts of the track are rusty. in the field in the dirt and mud there is no rust on the running gear. 

a T-34 that survived Kursk and the counterattacks afterwards would be a tad more weathered than one rolling out of the tank factory at Stalingrad to be destroyed 2 blocks up the road.

a Toyoda pickup in my driveway certainly iless beat up than a Libyan rebel technical.

SO i will continue to enjoy the WIPs of both sides of the issue, learn new stuff, try new techniques, and keep what i like. i will continue to post WIPs, welcome constructive critiscism and suggestions, and improve. i don't have any national awards but in the last 2 years i have a number of regional ones which is an indication my modeling is improving because, in part, to the information here (and from doing some of the less frequented categories i like to build in.[8-|)

a suggestion. try building dinosaurs. no one really knows what they looked like so anything is possible. (shameless plug for a GB)

waynec

 

a suggestion. try building dinosaurs. no one really knows what they looked like so anything is possible. (shameless plug for a GB)

 

 

Well, almost anything. I doubt they had any rust.

Just sayin

Bish

 

 

waynec

 

a suggestion. try building dinosaurs. no one really knows what they looked like so anything is possible. (shameless plug for a GB)

 

 

 

 

 

Well, almost anything. I doubt they had any rust.

 

Just sayin

 

DAMN!!! now i have to redo the Stegasaurus spine plates.

waynec

 

Bish

 

 

waynec

 

a suggestion. try building dinosaurs. no one really knows what they looked like so anything is possible. (shameless plug for a GB)

 

 

 

 

 

Well, almost anything. I doubt they had any rust.

 

Just sayin

 

 

 

 

DAMN!!! now i have to redo the Stegasaurus spine plates.

 

See, what would you do without me to point out these things.

Bish

 

 

waynec

 

Bish

 

 

waynec

 

a suggestion. try building dinosaurs. no one really knows what they looked like so anything is possible. (shameless plug for a GB)

 

 

 

 

 

Well, almost anything. I doubt they had any rust.

 

Just sayin

 

 

 

 

DAMN!!! now i have to redo the Stegasaurus spine plates.

 

 

 

 

See, what would you do without me to point out these things.

 

Speaking of dinosaurs......

There's always the option of wielding a cooking utensil while yelling:

" Not the ma-ma !" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOavOd56AtQ

SPRU CE watch for it in the future. you and i will be the only 2 who get it.

waynec

SPRU CE watch for it in the future. you and i will be the only 2 who get it.

 

LOL..........

waynec

SPRU CE watch for it in the future. you and i will be the only 2 who get it.

 

I know what you are talking about... This I gotta see...

Karl,

Unfortunately, Ive only got virtual San Mig Light, bottled.  But I tell you, it goes down smooth and refreshes every cell of your body.  

Cheers!

I used to know a guy who brush painted his aircraft models with fingernail polish and displayed the completed models at the yearly Glenview NAS open house IPMS McKinstry display.

Wonder what he'd think of all this......?

allan

Karl,

 

Unfortunately, Ive only got virtual San Mig Light, bottled.  But I tell you, it goes down smooth and refreshes every cell of your body.  

 

Cheers!

 

 

I really miss San Miguel Dark, the real stuff from the Islands.

waynec

well this is getting annoyingly interesting.

i am a technical illustrator and a graphics artist which seems oddly similar to the realism and artistic thoughts on modeling. what that means is i professionally draw for accuracy UNLESS it doesn't look right or convey the correct information in the training manual. than i get a little artsy so the student understands the drawing. 

as i menrtioned earlier i gravitate towards the arttistic side when it comes to painting and weathering, hopefully with some common sense thrown in because that is part of the fun.

I have used weathering and excess stowage to cover "mistakes" and I HAVE DONE IT 1-1 SCALE. we had a desert camo scheme on my tanks when i got to germany. we had to have 30% sand so, when we repainted, we looked at our load plans and painted all those areas sand that would be covered by track blocks, road wheels, duffle bags, etc. guess that counts as hiding "mistakes."

i have had modern tanks, even my new A2s, look pink after 3 weeks in the field in a red clay area, thick mud on the underside and dinged fenders.  after the wash rack and a good cleaning they look pristine on the pad. funny though on the pad the end conectors, steel wear plates and metal parts of the track are rusty. in the field in the dirt and mud there is no rust on the running gear. 

a T-34 that survived Kursk and the counterattacks afterwards would be a tad more weathered than one rolling out of the tank factory at Stalingrad to be destroyed 2 blocks up the road.

a Toyoda pickup in my driveway certainly iless beat up than a Libyan rebel technical.

SO i will continue to enjoy the WIPs of both sides of the issue, learn new stuff, try new techniques, and keep what i like. i will continue to post WIPs, welcome constructive critiscism and suggestions, and improve. i don't have any national awards but in the last 2 years i have a number of regional ones which is an indication my modeling is improving because, in part, to the information here (and from doing some of the less frequented categories i like to build in.[8-|)

a suggestion. try building dinosaurs. no one really knows what they looked like so anything is possible. (shameless plug for a GB)

I think I'm in your boat Wayne, Graphic Designer here as well. I will get hung up on the "right" colour from time to time, but at the end of the day I want the finished model to LOOK right, bonus points for accuracy.  ;)

stikpusher

 

waynec

SPRU CE watch for it in the future. you and i will be the only 2 who get it.

 

 

 

 

I know what you are talking about... This I gotta see...

 

Having thought about this for a few minutes, i would like to be the first to say i don't have a clue what you guys are talking about.

Anyway...to the subject at hand.

When all is said and done, if you did what you like, and it turned out as you like...it's right!

I have always tried for "realistic"...which is a bit of a loose term, as I see it. "istic" being like "ish"...Real-ish. Not exactly real, but a decent representation. Since I got into painting and finishing entire models, I've gone through 4 "style" changes.

First "style" was brush paint or whatever rattlecan color I had on hand. "Weathering" would be done with paint. Put down a tiny dab of black and streak it back with a finger. I keep one of those old builds around, just for a reminder! It aint pretty!!!

2nd style...proper, or at least "close" rattlecan colors, (got better with colors, once I got a cheap Testors a/b, which wasn't any better than a rattlecan, other than for colors). Weathering was done with a felt tip Micron pen. Run the pen down the panel line, then swipe the excess back with a finger. This was an improvement, and I thought it was so awesome, at the time...not so much anymore!

3rd style...no more rattlecans, but still had that cheapo Tetors a/b. A/B the base colors, then hit all the panel lines with black pastel chalk. Then, dry-brush base color over that, mixing in the pastels and making a heck of a mess, then drybrush a lighter shade of the base color over that. This would leave the panel lines darker and add a tonal variation to the finish. Then they'd get hit with a little bit more pastels in dirty/traffic areas and exhaust. I'm still pleased to look at these on the shelves.

4th, and current style. After switching from the typical panel line pre-shading, I adopted the  "blackbasing" (learned from DoogsATX) technique. All the tonal variation is done with an airbrush, then weathered with a wash and some pastels here and there.

Each "style" varied, and improved over time, but still had the same "style". When the style changed, it was overnight...the new one being completely different than the last.

Bish

 

 

stikpusher

 

waynec

SPRU CE watch for it in the future. you and i will be the only 2 who get it.

 

 

 

 

I know what you are talking about... This I gotta see...

 

 

 

 

Having thought about this for a few minutes, i would like to be the first to say i don't have a clue what you guys are talking about.

 

fermis

I have always tried for "realistic"...which is a bit of a loose term, as I see it. "istic" being like "ish"...Real-ish. Not exactly real, but a decent representation. Since I got into painting and finishing entire models, I've gone through 4 "style" changes.

 

I think thats a much better way to put it.

fermis, one question on this blackbaseing. I have seen it use on single colour schemes, like B_one's F-18. But how does it work on a multi camo scheme. Do you do each colour seperatly, because i imagine if you lay the lighter colour all over, you cancel out the effect.

is blackbasing like priming with black?

i did an OTS T-55 syrian mine roller. primed in gray and sprayed what i thoight was Vallejo air paint (sand) and couldn't understand why it wasn't covering. turned out it was their sand primer. couple more light coats and i had something akin to panel line coloring. some washes, and serious scrubbed in powder and voila took a first in 1/72 post korea armor at a regional. mistake = success.

always wondered what a black primer would do, never had the guts to try it yet.