Guilt about military modeling?

although i havent served in the military, i hold no guilt for building the subjects i build. my reason, i build to pay homage to those who have served. whether you build military or civilian subjects you are not glorifying that which you build. you are but doing a replica. war is an evil, a neccesary one at times but an evil non the less. there are no victors just survivors. both military and civilians die in war, there are none who are special and are not affected.

joe

QUOTE: Originally posted by Natm Without getting too controvertial, is an interest in military hobbies a form of glorification or support of war?

In my opinion, absolutely not!

Oh, I'm sure that there may be the odd modeler out there who does in fact think that war is great and builds models because of it. I would hope that if someone like this exists, they are indeed a very rare exception and not the rule.

I personally model WWII armor and vehicles. Why? I have always had an interest in WWII from a historical standpoint. My grandfather fought in Europe along side countless heros who battled against the Nazi regime. As with many wars throughout history, WWII saw military innovation on an unprecedented scale. I am completely amazed by the range of weapons that were developed, the speed at which they went from mere dreams to actual working vehicles, and the comparisions between equipment from all countries involved in the war.

Am I glorifying or supporting war? Heck, no.

Am I drawing attention to a period of time in our history when the world was at war? Yes, I am.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Robert Foster
MSgt USAF (Ret) 20 years, 5 months, 23 days

That goes for me too. I build just about nothing but military models for the historical aspect plus its fun. When i build a model i learn alot mainly from the research i do on for the model. you could say models are educational. Im for the war because the people who try to take my freedom away should be punished, with death if nessesary. Plus my dad had served his time in the war with iraq and so im defently for protecting my country with arms.

I have stopped to think similar thoughts. When I was a bit younger, I was modeling a Stuka and stopped to reflect on my grandmother, who was in one of the milder (was there such a thing) Nazi camps. I started feeling a bit guilty- but then came to the realization- I wasn't glorifying the Nazi ideal, I was just building a model.

In fact, I probably have learned more about history from doing modeling than I ever learned through 12 years of history in school. I think it's a matter of keeping things in prespective really.

Saddly aggresion is a part of human nature and always will be. There is no reason to turn a blind eye to that part of history just because it is unpleasant. Model building is half art and half history, how many museums use models to tell the story of human conflict? We need to educate the young about the horrible costs of war but remember models are not real, more like a 3D snap shot of history.

I build the armor, because I'm fascinated in the roles they played in history. History, especially military history will always be my number one interest. I'm just interested in the weapons of war, but also the human involvement. I can't imagine what it truely must feel like to be shot at. It's engrossing to hear of individual accounts of their experiences. They were all very brave, friend and foe alike. So I have no guilt, for I don't glorify war.

I can only echo the wisdom that has already been shared.

We who served in the Armed forces do not generally yearn for war. I won't pretend that I build models to honor anyone. I don't have the skills or talent to make the effort worth it. I am building a B17F because my grandfather was a tailgunner. I sat near him as a child and listened to him. He could do some wierd things with his elbow beacuse of a wound. He was reticent to speak of the war where he met my grandmother. They met in Birmingham, England and she became his war bride. I still miss the toothless beer kisses she would give me when I was upset.

Oh, where was I? I enjoy reading about history and have been enthralled by WWII for some time. I put together these plastic models and enjoy them.

I would not be hesitant in encouraging a youngster to build models. It is combines eye hand coordination with patience. Also, it has nothing to do with a dependance upon video games.

Folk's,

I'm an ex Serviceman, an ex M113A1 jockey, yet I model WW II aircraft 90% of the time and it's the history of the time that I believe is replicated in the model, how it is interpreted is per the individual. Talking to those who have never built a model, at shows and other things, have no idea of what is outside the circle they stand on.

Rob.

Guilt? Of course not!
Educational, certainly; most modellers I know are historians in one way or another and that's a good thing.

There was a lot of angst shed here a few months ago when someone posted a thread wherein he was taken to task by some PC do-gooder for modelling, I believe, a diorama of a camp ... Opinions were very much in favour of the modeller for all the reasons stated by everyone here.

Bruce

let's not get too ethical or moral here - it's a harmless hobby! there's many other national and worldly problems out there that need urgent attention than concerning yourself about the pros & cons of military hobby/reserach interests!

I am no gun enthusiast, but I do recall a NRA arguement that "guns dont kill people; people do!". It's the same here - plastic models don't incite violence nor warmongering, nor does it advocate that every little boy enlist in the Army to kill bad guys. It's a fact of life - there will always be bad individuals or groups of people who have sinister plans for some other groups of people. And there must be some sort of defence service that protects us not only in times of war but also in times of peace!

Freedom is not Free!

now off my soapbox!

I can't believe the world is getting so politically correct everyday!- it's complete bull!

Luke hit it on the head. It's an idle past time or at worst the fascination of and for technological tools.

No hidden agenda or subliminal mind control, unless its DML indy tracks, then its someone hell bent on world domination. Namely the master model builder for DML.

Mike

I don't have any guilt about what I build, I do it to have fun and relax. Some of the subjects I choose because I've used/ridden/been supported by them while on exercises or deployments and I feel like I have a connection to them. Others I pick because they look interesting or challenging. As it's been said before, it's a hobby, not a political statement.

If there are so many that would view modeling of military subjects as offensive, then there would be a decline in museums and we would never see airshows with thousands of restored warbirds at them.

I think there is a small % of PC Dudly Do Rights. I have encountered them at shows from time to time, and one time for a highschool display, was forced to take the Confederate flag off a model because it represented racism and in the same dispay, the school told be to cover the swastika on the Bismark because it was offensive. I have never felt sorry for building something that represented a bad past, I'm honored by it because I can teach future generations about what had happened.

Military modeling or a fascination in military history doesn't glorify war, John Wayne movies glorify war. Recent films like Stalingrad or Band of Brothers tell the story of great men and comraderie while showing the horror of it. That's valuable.
My wife and I have discussions about this concerning our kids. We have 2 and 4 year old boys. Among their interests (insects, dinosaurs, space), are now tanks. They can tell the difference between variants and love camoflaging and playing with their corgi toys. The older draws some detailed pictures as well. My wife thinks the subject is unhealthy, but what's the alternative? Power Rangers, Pokemon, The Hulk?
That to me at least is no better. Besides they're not aware of the use of these weapons, only that they are as old as Grandma.

models are just that...models. These pieces of plastic, albeit enjoyed throughoutly by all of us, are just simple objects, and not representative of the modeler's feelings or thoughts. Anyone who attacks models as a form or either glorifying or endorsing warfare is drawing the most simple minded conclusion possible. This is just not the case. Maybe some of us out there DO in fact see it as such, but I find it very hard to believe that a significant number of us do. This train of thought has the same thinking parallel as assuming that people who watch motorsports or extreme sport have a deathwish!

I've always believed that you can't go forward without a clear idea of where you've been.

I love history, museums and really anything to do with helping current generations have some idea of what prior ones have done, both good and bad things.

Most of what I build is post war stuff. I grew up watching the Cold War on T.V. newscasts so thats where my modeling intrests usually gravitate to.

I recently talked to someone who thought that the hammer and sicle emblems so ubiquitous to Socialist symbology and propoganda should be treated like the swastika is on model boxes and decal sheets.

I couldn't believe it! No I don't agree with Socialism and I'm glad to see it largely gone, but when you consider the former Soviet Union was instrumental in the allied defeat of Germany in WWII, the comparison of the hammer and sicle to the swastika was ridiculous to say the least.

Models are yet one more way we can get in touch with the past.

Of course, perhaps its just a darn good hobby :-)

It's a hobby, not an ongoing political statement. I build the planes and armor that I saw growing up as a kid on military bases and later in my own military service. I build the a/c and other vehicles that carried members of my family into combat and back. I also build sci-fi, cars and kits that reflect pop culture, like the Batmobile and Homer Simpson's Homermobile. Does that make me a hawk, or maybe a Homerphobe :D
I think not. It's just a pleasant pasttime that produces objects from our history, good or bad. Enjoy it for what it is, and don't worry what others think. And as far as hidden agendas go, I think the real monster isn't DML''s indies, but 1/72 sclae PE

Hey! while you're busy modeling or gaming you're not out shooting anyone. Guilt is for the overly introspective types.

Nat,
I agree with you.
Although a simply deplorable event at the best of times, warfare has given birth to so very many incredible mechanisms and systems - the inventiveness and audacity of some of them is mind boggling.
It has also spawned some of the most beautiful creations - the ungainly grace of the Catalina, the P-51, the Spitfire, the stunning effectiveness of the German 88 gun, the brutish and awesome King Tiger, the systems in place today which would have been considered complete science fiction 50 years ago.......
I'm an engineer by trade - and although I don't and would probably never own a gun, I an fascinated by the operating mechanisms and the skill that is required in both the design and manufacture of them.
Modelling a tank can't be considered evil. Sure, the real thing is a tool of destruction. But a model isn't. Nor is modelling Axis aircraft or armour in itself evil because of the tyrannical despot that helped create the political will required to use them to kill.
Anyone who believes it could be evil needs to have their head read.
The old Tom and Jerry cartoons didn't make we wanna take an axe to the next door neighbor's kid. Nor did building Fw-190's and Japanese Zeros when I was 8 make me want to conquer the South Pacific or Western Europe.
Like you said, it's a page in history's book. To sweep it under the table and forget it happened is an insult to the millions who served, sacrificed or died, and to the tens, maybe hundreds of millions of civilians who died as a result of the conflict.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Natm ... is an interest in military hobbies a form of glorification or support of war? Nat

depiction isn't the same as glorification...
seems like most of us build this stuff out of an interest
in history &/or technology
& that most of us have asked ourselves this same question
& come up with the same answer.
my personal solution ?
i've started modeling a series of unarmed ARVs
basically armored vehicles that tow other tanks
'tanks that help'...
u can see 1 in the Armor section under 'frosty's m32 arv' thread.

frosty

This is a good thread.
Have got me thinking about my hobby.

Its not wrong to encourage young people to model.
Think about it. People who acuse us of beeing "war lovers" don't know much about history, how do I know this? I have met plenty of those people, and when I talk to them I find that they don't know much about what happened in WWII ( The period that I model the most ).

They think Im some sort of Nazi because I model German tanks. But then I tell the stories of the war that I have read in my reference books, and they say " Is that how it happened " And I say " yes; that is why we are free today ".

Anyone who builds models also have some interest in history, by encouraging a youngster to model you also encourage him / her to learn about history, make them realize the price of freedom. Maybe they will value their freedom and the price their forfarthers had to pay for it.

last year me and some friends where at a show in Germany. One of my friends had some old toy soldiers for sale. It was German soldiers from WWII, and one of them carried a flag with a swastica on it.

In Germany the swastica is forbidden, also on models, so we had to be careful. A german noticed the soldier and ask us about it. He said " I don't know why its not allowed to show a swastica on a model, its a part of our history and we have to learn to live with it. We can't just deny that it ever happened "

Through modeling I have learned things about the past that I would not have learned otherwise. I think you should encourage all that you meet to start modeling, so they can learn about their history. Feeling guilt about modeling?? No! never have, and never will. Thats my worth.

A friend in the club has been selling on e-bay. Some of the stuff that does best is WWII German. As a result of this, he has been doing commissions of some SS in parade uniforms. He has confessed to feeling somewhat queasy at what he perceives as some less desirable types collecting his work and possibly setting up shrines to the SS. I look at his work and love the quality of the detail and the artistry he brings to his figures but do not judge him by the subject.

I think modeling would have the opposite effect. I don't think it would serve to glorify war. On the contrary (for me anyway). It reminds me of how terrible it really is. When I look at the model of my B-17, in my head I hear the thunder of the engines, smell the smoke of the exhaust, feel the concussions from the flak (I can only imagine though) and then I see the blood running on the floor of the cockpit which just got ripped open by exploding cannon shells and I see the dead crewmen being removed from the hatch after the plane has landed. I think that we have the responsibility to remember what really happened in and because of these planes and be thankful for the freedom they created. Perhaps another way I can think about it is that the models create a reverence and awe of what they represent rather than a glorification of war.

Just my two cents,

Eric

I feel no shame or guilt in modeling a piece of history anymore than I do for owning firearms and hunting and fishing.
It is a useful and relaxing past-time.
Nothing that I build hurts anyone and nothing that I harvest in the hunting field, lake or river goes to waste.
There is nothing shameful or disrespectful about either one of these past-times.
This is just my humble opinion.

Randie

calling someone a war lover because they make models of military things is like saying someone who studies russian history or builds models of soviet planes / tanks ect a communist or someone who specialises in WW2 german military a nazi, its just plain stupid and very narrow minded. i loath the idea of war and violence though i do realise it is sometimes a necesary evil, its the equiptment and history that interests me. i have a small part of a B25 mitchel and it came with a tag with the aircrafts Bu Air no and some day i will look up its history, not because i want to learn how many people got killed by it or in it (if any)but just because the research is interesting to me. so i for one am not a war lover.
Greg
btw, the B25 part isn't for sale

Military equipment is like almost everything else created by human beings - it can be put to either good or bad purposes. It is the same with models. If a modeler gets a perverted self-gratification by reveling in the cruelty, destruction, rape, and death that accompany war, then guilt is well deserved. On the other hand, if the modeler's craft reveals something about mankind -our history, our successes and failures, our works and deeds - then the product his/her effort may approach art.

Just my opinion, such as it is.....

I have no guilt for modeling armor. In fact i do it almost as a rememberence. Same goes for reenacting. And they are both fun!!!

Guilt?

I like science and technology that's why I am into this hobby modeiling planes, tanks and other technical stuff.

And that is all there is to it.

No Guilt. The military has produced things that have made there way to civilian life. War is bad, but I wonder what life would be like right now had their been peace for the last couple of centuries.