why are we payin so much!?!!?!

interesting thyamis, i didnt know there was that much of a difference in pricing between here and europe. i was there in august BTW. how do you cope with that kinda situation? you cant always order everything online can you?

NEway, this topics been hacked away at for a while now. we'd all like to see the situation reversed, but its difficult to see how it could be. the economy's path doesn't seem to allow this, and with such a limited community of people involved compared to the rest of the world, its hard to see how we could work to get lower prices, without really hurting the hobby. here we've been talking about whose to blame and why. what we should be talking about is hw to fix the problem. but like ive said, at least i cant think of a way to do that right now. if NE one reading this does, plz step forward and share it!! but in the meantime, we'll jsut have to ride it out.

BTW- thyamis, how big is NASCAR in greece or europe? it cant be that big, can it??

It depends on the demand partially.
Italeri and Revell produce 1/72 kits for under 10$ which can be of quality, but they are of famous types (P-47, P-51 etc)....However even if they can produce at a similar price a rather obscure type they wont since they will not sell enough to justify the investment of the moldings, so here comes the limited run guys who charge higher because they expect that they scarce minority which loves that kind of stuff will buy them anyway.....

Cars is different issue.....They charge royalties because what they sell has a following.
Formula One, or NASCAR attracts loads of people so in effect you pay the right to admire a replica....!!!!! it is like the pay per view issue.

If you want odd things in pricing is the fact although dollar to euro ratio is all time high, Badgers in Europe (greece) are still more expensive than in the USA at a 1-2.5 ratio.
ie what sells for 90 $ in the US sells 180 Euros home, which is almost 250 US money....explain this to me.....even if you count shipping it does not add up the profit is staggering.....

QUOTE: Originally posted by gringe88 NEway, i hope he keeps at it. nice to see this sorta thing!

He should, he will be the 3rd generation of model builder in the family.

glad to hear it Model Museum!! maybe he'll compete? the junior modelers ranks are alwasy a little low, (like we just said). NEway, i hope he keeps at it. nice to see this sorta thing!

I fully agree it is a catch-22 situation.

We need lower prices in order to attract new modelers but the companies won't lower the prices till they sell more kits.

My Son is starting to enjoy building models, he is still small so I got the parts of the sprue for him and clean them he than glues and assembles the Model(Robots).

Need to go and get him another Lazyner Kit tomorrow.

I get what you're saying model museum, the instant grati fad has really taken a toll on the hobby, although hasn't it always been there in different forms?? NEways, all i was saying was that finding a way to lower prices of kits might be one way to help the hobby. Im not saying i know it will, but it might help. getting people interested is a major responsibility to builders these days.

unfortunately, if a guy started talking to kids about making models, they'd laugh right in his face, much like you said. for the most part, its up to modelers now to get their kids interested. although appealing to someones pride, about how they could build the same thing much like the home-improvement industry has worked, could help. but dont just condemn all teens because of a stereotypical ideal. everyone's different. one thing i do know though is that although kids like the instant gratification they can get from some of the stuff you mentioned, they also get tired of it after a while. i should know, im a teen and i havent played my MOH games in months. i hadnt done a lot with my models in the time prior to it, but know, thats the only ting im thinking about when i wanna do something i like...but i detour from the topic at hand. maybe we could discuss this at a later post.

right now though, WE also have another problem to deal with along with bringing in fresh blood. its keeping people who like the hobby right now interested in it. and its becoming harder to do that with the rising costs. thats all i was getting at. its one way we could deal with these problems.

In short what I was trying to say in my previous post.

Simply lowering the prices won't sell more kits nor get more people involved in the Hobby.
I can give kits away for free to teens, until they have a desire/interest to build those kits they will collect dust on a shelf next to the games, etc.

Seen it often tried to get teens involved, they opened the box looked at all the parts listend to what was needed turned around to me and told me "That is too much work/effort, thanks, but not interested.".

gringe88.

I fully hear what you are saying and to a certain degree I agree, but I don't think that that is how things will work out in the long run.
Why?? Because of human nature and greed BOTH from the makers and builders.

The hobby is constantly changing and re-adjusting and less and less people these days seem to be interested in putting an effort into building a nice kit.
These is also reflected by the Kit makers, now releasing unbuild kits and soon after build items for a bit more $$$.

YES, less people are building models and thus prices of kits also go up. Problem is that the makers cannot make new builders or generate interest in newcomers to the hobby, that is up to you, me and every other model builder out there.

WE need to attract new modelers and show them how to build those "expensive" kits nicely so that they don't feel that they are wasting their money.
The days of the quick slap-together kits seem to be gone, unless you are talking half-toys like some of the gundam kits.

The Hobby is falling pray to the "instant gratification" attitude we can see everywhere these days.
"Why should I spend 3 hours detailing a cockpit when I can buy an AM set", and so on.

Like I said i have seen it in the Anime garage kit industry, everybody simply wants kit xyz(regardless if it is original or not) and even more want the same kit already build and painted and cheap too.
When I went to japan a few years back most shops stocked literally hundred of plastics and garage kits, go there now and you will see maybe a 1/10th the rest being pre-paints, statues, action figures, dolls, etc. A few dozen resin kits used to be released every month now I can count the monthly releases on 1 hand.

For most youngsters today it is more fun to pop a game into a console, watch a DVD or chat with friends online, rather than get creative and build a model or do another hobby.

And the model industry is reflecting those changes by the kits they release and the prices they charge.

model museum- thanks for pointing that out for me. i forgot about scavenging stuff from other places. also, you may find hunting for and buying a rare and expensive kit, but its still just some molded plastic. not everyone is going to jump at that thought. they just want a relatively good kit, at a fair price, but if they have to search high and low for a good kit, and then shovel out enough dough it would cover going to a couple movies or games, then there's just not going to be any competition. movies, computer and video games, and other forms of entertainment will easily win out with the people. here's where it comes to a point that a person interested in the hobby, who may be really good at it, looses interest. basically what im getting at is that eventually there'll be so little interest, that model building may become as frequent as modern day druids. nobody in the hobby wants to see that, i guarentee it.

therefore, if we want to keep building, being offered the same quality kits and etc., and keep fresh blood coming in (thus perpetuating the hobby), we have to put a hold on how much we're willing to pay at some point. thats just how i see it.

Actually one part of the modeling hobby I enjoy has become sort of elitist.

I like to build Japanese Anime Figure Kits and got quite a stash, that part of the hobby started out as an underground movement to give people kits that the bigger companies didn't want to manufacture. Kits made for fans by fans.

Of course interest in this sector grew and commercial companies sprung up, with all their good and bad points, for a variety of reasons the hobby has gone again underground and if you want Original Kits (not the Thai or Korean rip-offs commonly sold) you will need to have contacts in japan and be willing to shell out a pretty penny for every kit.

Only recently I got hold of a Kit created by one of the master sculptors, and have already been offered 5 times my purchase price(yes, it is RARE). I will not sell it as I hope to get the 2nd Kit to make the set complete. Than I will build BOTH kits at the same time.
For me part of the fun is the hunt for those elusive kits.

No one won or lost Matt, it was a roundtable discussion I thought. Opinions only.

QUOTE: if the hobby shops and retailers mostly go out a business, then where will you get the amount of cheap styrene to produce such works? such places i believe will be few and far-between.

The next time someone regails you with the great deal they got from a mail order house or internet supplier, I hope you reflect back on this statement. It is these low overhead outlets that are endangering the local hobbyshop and retailer, not the price of kits. Maybe the mfr.'s are creating a self fulfilling prophecy....up the price so the retailer has to charge more. Eventually it will no longer be cost effective and he'll have to defer to the internet outlet.

Ultimately what I see happening is a sharp decrease in retail outlets. An extreme scenario but one that will work for illustration purposes. Instead of 100 hobbyshops across the country ordering 2 or 3 each of a hopefully hot kit, you will have 5 internet outlets that will each buy 6-10. Sales forecasting is more accurate and they can get by with fewer to have to show. Afterall, they only have one showroom(the computer). The difference being between 30-50 kits being sold by the mfr. and 200-300. Now I as a mfr. want to maintain my profits so I will charge more. Production costs are more expensive because of the per unit cost and there is no longer a larger demand. As a result there will be fewer kits produced because of the expense, this will also make me raise prices. So yes, it will be outpriced and ultimately the hobby will be an elite hobby or create a whole new cottage industry in kits and scratchbuilding skills.

Don't think this can happen? Look at hardware stores. How many hardware stores are there these days? Not the big DIY centers but real hardware stores.

Doing scratch-building is not that tough, you just need to bite the bullet and go for it.
Supplies can be found in the most unlikely places and often way cheaper than what is stocked at the hobby shop(very often the same stuff anyway).

Remember also that someone did a scratchbuild once already for that part that you are now buying as an AM part.

well, ok i guess i lost it that time. well put arguments my friends. but, if it ever comes down to the "haves and have-nots" then that time can be considered the real death of a great hobby. because if only a few can afford the stuff, then the number of producers, suppliers, buyers, people interested in it at all...it'll all disappear, and the hobby will have left the main stream market and will be relegated as a hobby of the rich, or one for those with the time and determination to produce their own heavy scratch-builds.

as for the AM vs. Scratch-build part, you're also right. i right now cant do much scrtach-building, but id like to. but again, if the hobby shops and retailers mostly go out a business, then where will you get the amount of cheap styrene to produce such works? such places i believe will be few and far-between.

I think Dan was pretty on topic there.
Modelbuilding is a hobby. One that requires disposable income. It comes down to the haves and have nots. Either you have dsiposable income or you don't. Its not a class thing its a priority thing. How important is it to you?

If you have x amount of dollars to spend on something you pick and choose what you will spend that money on. Cigarettes, soda, a movie, video game, concert tickets, model, paint etc. This is disposable income, outside of rent, groceries, utilities, bills etc.

Several threads over the last couple of years have bemoaned and lamented the price of the hobby vs. entertainment value, other topics included folks lamenting that they couldn't afford a particular kit, (some ironicly could afford several cheaper kits that if added together would have equaled the big money kit) but they chose to spread their money out feeling that the larger $ vs. entertainment was better spent buying 3, 1/72 kits as opposed to 1, 1/35. It was what they perceived as their threshold of expenditure.

So, to get back to Dan's post. If the costs associated with this hobby go up, to the point that those with more disposabe income will get first pick at the choicest morcels and aftermarket stuff, that is economics. I would like to drive a BMW, I can't afford one, should BMW make a economy version so I can afford it? No. I will settle for less or what I can afford. So just as in the BMW, so will participants in the hobby cope with rising costs. They may not be able to afford the higerpriced kits or the aftermarket doo dads to pimp out their kit, but what they will do is buy the cheaper or less expensive kits and put a little more work into them to "pimp" them out as well as do more scratchbuilding to fill in the gaps where they would use the AM if the money was available. That to me make them better modelers than the guys who can throw a seemingly endless amount of money at something and are still limited by ability. i.e. look at the super detail tiger from a while back. As impressive as it was for detail and amount spent on it, frankly I was not impressed because it was just aftermarket brass, resin, putty and styrene. No tank jumped out at me, I was not impressed with the weathering that wasn't there.

Even if the mfr,'s price the kits so far out of reach that only a few will ever be able to afford them, I think you'll find that those really interested in model building and making madels (as opposed to assembling) will find ways around the financial obstacles placed before them. This can mean making do with poorer quality kits or scratchbuilding from less expensive materials what they want to upgrade the kit. A really good example of this can be pulledf rom history. Captured Bristish and French Sailors during the Napoleonic Wars would make absolutely beautiful ship models from bits of rags, soup bones, wood they could scavenge and thread to sell to such distinguished clientele as admirality boards, Captains, Admirals and Gentry, to subsidize their stays in the prisons. This got htem extra food, clothing or to pay their way out. They made do.

I hate to think that we as creative artists in this hobby are so reliant on aftermarket and commercial kits that we have forgotten what it was about to be intuitive, imaginative, creative and resourceful in our endeavors.

Dan.

I fully agree with you it is good at times to go back and rediscover the beginnings and basics of our hobby.
This is something I also do from time to time, granted not full scratch-build but designing my own conversions for a kit and than grabbing putty, files, sculpting tools, etc and make it happen.
A LOT of what you learn there can than be reapplied back to the high-grade kits.
Why buy an expensive resin kit that only has a few extra details that can be done by investing a few minutes and maybe a bit of copper wire or similar.

Ok, back on-topic now.

Looking over my modeling bill I find that the Kits itself actually don't seem to make up the major part of the money I spend, a LOT of money goes into paints, thinners, glues, masking materials, pearl powders(ouch), etc. So dropping a Kit price by maybe $2~3 might not make such a dent in your expenses.

FYI, I normally buy few AM parts/kits most of my Kits are OOB with a bit of detail added, the few AM parts I buy tend to be generic like hoses, wires, etc.

This is a bit off topic, but for the past year , I have been scratchbuilding models and having the time of my life doing it. It is such a change from the highly detailed kits, PE and AM stuff that I read alot about these days. I am not knocking any of that, its just sometimes, we may all need a break from all the high tech innovations and grab a block of wood or foam and start whittlin'. You might be suprised with the end results....

Regards, Dan

Regards, Dan

QUOTE: Originally posted by gringe88 model museum- i dont know about you, but i wouldnt give this hobby up for my video games, but im also just a kid. i cant afford to buy emensely priced plastic, and then wind up still having to pay a huge amount for details for it, just to be in that better quality range. and i sure as heck am not going to go back to snap together models. further more, imsure there are a lot of other modelers out there with a similar view, and thats what counts....

I am not so sure the baby-boom generation is becoming quiet a financial powerhouse and more and more companies are shifting their focus towards them. People in their late 40's and early 50's now seem to spend quiet a bit.

As for spending money on the extra detail, I think there is one problem right there. How about adding that extra detail yourself, we did a few decades ago when AM parts, research materials and advise were scarce.

Hate to say it but businesses tend to listen to the few people that got the disposable income and not the general public.

Personally, for me it does not matter if the kit is a cheap snap-together gundam or and expensive Tamiya/Hasegawa kit if I want to build it nicely it gets the same level of attention.

Just my thoughts naturally.

dwight, there we go. heres a good example of model prices getting way the heck up there. granted, the phillipines are not the richest country in the world (not to be insulting to you dwight), but they're better than a lot of other nations.

model museum- i dont know about you, but i wouldnt give this hobby up for my video games, but im also just a kid. i cant afford to buy emensely priced plastic, and then wind up still having to pay a huge amount for details for it, just to be in that better quality range. and i sure as heck am not going to go back to snap together models. further more, imsure there are a lot of other modelers out there with a similar view, and thats what counts....

Why are we paying so much?

I live in a country where a regular 1/35 armor kit will cost the locals about 2 to 3 days wages and an ordinary 1/72 planes about 1 to 2 days wages.

Now ask me again...are paying so much? LOL.

I am no economist but I think it is because even though we know that we are paying too much...we are still buying and paying. All of the things said about royalties, tarrif, manufacturing costs, shipment costs are I think correct and valid but we ourselves are helping drive the prices up.

Last February the Academy M-51 Super Sherman was issued here for about say US$7. And for a good kit, it was relatively cheap. It sold like hotcakes and the demand soared. Now the same kit (with no evident increase in the prices of other kits) is being sold for twice its original price.

When a person would be willing (or crazy enough) to spend his wages for 2-3 days work for a piece of plastic...then I don't see the kit prices going down anytime soon.

Oh, there will always be middle-ground level kits but fewer and a poorer selection I think.

I see a shift in ratio/emphasis towards where the bigger money markets are.

There has to be some middle ground or the industry won't survive. One can not go from easy pre-painted snap kits to hign quality and high tech without reasonable priced kits in bewteen. If they can not do this in a few years there will not be enough modelers left to support them.
John
Helicopters don't fly they beat the air into submission

Actually the hobby as it stand at the moment is undergoing great changes as can be seen by fewer released kits, stores less willing to stock up.

Yes, it might mean that certain people won't be able to afford the Models any longer, otoh, modelers want better quality, am part included, etc, etc.
Who will pay for all those improvements, of course the modeler by paying a higher purchase price.

I see the hobby splitting into 2 major camps one is the easy pre-coloured snap-together kits aka Gundam, etc and the other are the high-end, hihg-quality kits that will cost a pretty penny.

Hobbies are not static they need to adjust to the demands of the majority of supporters out there.

Said the above maybe paying for a more expensive kit might prompt more people to put more effort into building it and thus raise the bar of finished kits to a new level.
I don't see it all as bad, you just need to find how you can get the most enjoyment for your money out of the hobby.

basically what it comes down to is this: if prices keep goin up, then after a while, some of the younger or, lets just say not as financially set, modellers out there are goin to be unable to buy good quality kits, even if they may have great talent. we'd loose valuable people, and the hobby might eventually just go into a slump which it will never come out of, a toy hobby for the richest among the masses. thats not a pretty thot to me...

Ok I was out at the model shop this weekend, (I'd call it a hobby store but he only had models and nothing else) and was looking at the kits when I noticed something...

part of the price of the models is the quality of the kit you pay for... yes I think they are inflated as well, but a Tamiya or Hasegawa kit ran about 40 dollars, a classic airframes, with the PE and Resin right in the box about 50 to 60 dollars, Revell-o-Gram, about 8 to 25 dollars... I just thought it a logical sequence that the ones I wanted to build were going to cost me $100.00 for both at the least... (these GB's are expensive!)

Like I said overall they are higher than I would like, but the ones that cost more were both bigger in scale (1/48 and above) and a lot of them came with PE, canopy masks and the like in the box...

oh I know Gringe... I was just getting ready for the scowls when I said some of that though... taking the more expensive viewpoint doesn't always make you popular...

It's all good...

tho9900- you can say whatever you want about the subject, ithis isn't a one-sided forum. please go ahead and speack your mind.

renarts- if waht you say is true, and im not sayin it aint, then the real problem we're facing is inflation, and thats a whole nother ball park...

Military vehicles, like police cars etc, are purchased from a commercial company with tax payer money. That is the extent of ownership. They are end users. The product identity, trademarks and copyrights are still owned by the commercial company. Though it may be the army's Bradley Fighting Vehicle, (that is their designator for it.) United Defense (the mfr, of the Bradley) still owns it, commercially mfr's it for the DoD and retains the rights. The DoD does not mfr, its own products. And essentially contacts these coporations to design and build a specific product and then purchases them. Hence bidding out contracts. Which is why its not the Army selling Patriot missiles to other countries but Lockheed/Martin. Much as the Florida Highway Patrol purchases Ford Mustangs or Chevrolet Corvettes and so does the NYHP or CHP. The licensing still remains with the producing company as intellectual and design property and the DoD or end user only has rights of usage, not rights of ownership of the design. (Unless transfer of ownership is a stipulation of the contract.) Pony up the right amount of money and stay within the laws regarding weaponry and you too could own a APC that looks just like a Bradley and have a purple paint job with a yellow flame package. They just won't let you call it a Bradley. Its why the army has Humvees and you can buy a Hummer. With what ever options that are not part of the license issued to the DoD and stipulated as their exclusive property. Your tax money does not stipulate a public domain for licensing but is part of a budget allocated to the DoD for maintaining its presence. Commercial mfr's budget proposal fees and design costs based upon the eventual contract for so many vehicles. A sort of corporate gamble. Therefore they still own the rights to the Bradley and its design. If the army upgrades and changes contracts then United Defense may sell it to Argentina or a future Iraq as something different.

Prices will continue to rise along with everything else. Rising fuel costs for shipping, production costs, marketing, tariffs, inflation, market supply and demand all add to the increasing costs of this hobby. The exploitation of 3rd world countries is slowing down and even these 3rd world workers are getting smarter and more savvy. To open up trade agreeements with certain countries, a level of fair trade pratices has to be established. i.e. We no longer mfr. alot here in this country any more. Thus we have become dependent on others to do it for us. Well as the world becomes smaller, folks that worked for .50 a day now are smart enough to ask for $1 a day. Revell or Nike wants to maintain its bottom line so......they charge more. Various labor unions or world trade organizers or even our own govt. may stipulate that certain standards have to be met before we will allow import of those products, all adding to the cost of mfr'ing. Then there are security issues, that pesky monthly coupe d' etate to reshuffle the players and viola, that $15 kit just became a $50 kit. Sadly as minimum wage goes up so does everything else. So that $50 kit today is the same as that $15 kit 20 years ago. Helk even Greenspan said today that the rising oil prices are no more alarming than they were back in the 70's and that the economy was at a level commensurate with the increase and could easily absorb the increase without a panic. So, its the same as it was 20 years ago, the numbers only look different.

On the other hand, in short, the reason we pay so much? Is its still the most bang for your buck and even a junky will sell his blood and or sister for a fix.

Yeah it stinks, but in the end, it's like gas prices, we do what we gotta do to get where we gotta go.

well while not a popular reply, here it goes:

Recently at work (I am a Network Administrator) we got into some copyright issues. Not within our department, but another department wanting info on what consitutes copyright infingement...

It all boils down to "fair and reasonable use"

Basically as it applies to us, the modeller... we are more than free to create an exact 1/25 replica of a coke can, or bag of doritos, or britney spear's head... as long as it is for our own enjoyment, an educational project (teaching a group of modellers to mold the 3 foot 1/25 model of Britney Spears head) or simply because we want to. reasonable use being the catch word... it is for our OWN enjoyment... we can whittle, vacuform, cast, or scratchbuild as many of these things we want... even have them on our mantlepiece so visitors to our house can see them!

Now when I put that 1/25 Coke can in an IPMS competition, potentially viewed by many people is when it goes outside that domain... it is representing something to a group about the company...

Ok bear with me... second scenario... I decide my coke can is marketable... I want to produce this model so everyone can enjoy building "the Real Thing" ... suddenly I am flooded with calls about my product, several hundred, several thousand around the world want to buy my product... I decide to charge for the plans/kit... this is when it goes out of the realm of "reasonable use" again... I am making a profit representing a companies product, they, who researched, built, marketed and produced this product don't make a dime... I am exploiting their product for personal gain... making money on an idea that wasn't mine..

Now I agree with a lot of what was said here.... but if I whittled an exact replica of something that hasn't been done before... say a SciFi spacecraft of my own invention... and then I make some money off of selling the block of wood and pocket knife along with instructions... and suddenly I visit the SciFi forum here and notice someone mentioning "you can buy the Tom MkIII Obliterator at Joe's models" and go and look and BAM!!! there's my model... I'm gonna be upset!!!! someone is making money off of my work! I drew this out from a vision I had while smoking Peyote buds in the mojave desert!!!! how dare they!

I agree military craft should not be a licensing issue... the designs, the hardware, the craft I think (ok mabe not the designs) owned by the government... not the company... only the intellectual rights may be theirs... but essentially because the government owns the rights to that craft, I do too as the goverment is employed by me...

But as far as PanAm, Boeing etc... (ducking tomatoes thrown at me) they have the right under law to enforce the copyright... and the licensing fee really is not on us... it's on the model companies... who venture outside 'fair and reasonable use' and therefore must pay royalties, by selling the product representing their trademark... and of course they pass it along to us...