double standards make me mad!!

Well, there ya go! Sharpens my point quite a bit, doesn't it? I knew I was speaking loosely, but was too lazy to go and look up exact dates. Thanks for the correction!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bgrigg That is, former West Germans, it is only 20 years for the former East Germans.

I't even less then 20 years, the wall came down in 1989, unfication was later...
So it's about 15 years that the former East Germans enjoy democraty

Trigger74: Amen brother! I'm a history buff, and couldn't have said it better. My wife and I home school our children, so they have a very good understanding of not just our country's history, but world history.

Denying the use of a symbol is ridiculous, no matter what the "evil connotation" may be with it. The symbol itself is harmless, it is the idea behind the symbol that was the problem. I can see banning the use of the swastika as a symbol for a modern day political party, IE preventing a modern Nazi party to rise out of the ashes, but preventing it use as a historical marker on a model airplane is bizarre.

Icey: Democracy is pretty much the same world over, in other word, just as screwed up! Europe is not immune to that taint. In fact much of modern Europe has only recently been given the chance at it that the US has enjoyed for over 200 years. It is a German law that prevents Ebay from showcasing items with the Swastika, not a US one. The internet is accessible to all people from around the world. If Ebay wants to compete in the German market (which is a pretty sizable one) then they have to kowtow to the stupid German laws. It is only the past 60 years that Germans have enjoyed democracy as the US knows it. That is, former West Germans, it is only 20 years for the former East Germans. Now don't you go getting upset!

QUOTE: Originally posted by icey Please don't get offended, but by reading this and many other similar posts I only get a feeling that America is no longer a free country. Freedom of speech, privacy rights and other great civilisation accomplishments are only "dead letter on the paper" after 11.Sept. From my European point of view, democracy no longer lives in USA.

No offense taken. The biggest threat to freedom of speech right now comes from both political sides thinking the first amendment right of free speech applies only to them.

Freedom of the press seems okay - reporters make or break that one. Politicians have battled the press since day one and "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

That's one of my biggest complaints about our education system - we don't teach history worth a damn. Just boring, route memorization of names, dates and places from textbooks that are out of date. Kids loose interest and flake out (popular culture doesn't help). If they presented American history better, both the good and the bad and got away from "What year was the Magna Carta signed?" mentality then it'd be easier to learn. If we lose our sense of history, where we came from and how we got to where we are, then we're doomed to lose these freedoms that we already take for granted.

I assume the site you're talking about is Ebay? If so, is it Ebay US? I could certainly imagine this happening on the German Ebay website, but anywhere else is very worrying.
Were you selling a kit or a built model? If the latter, what category was it in? If it was in a military memorabilia/collectables category or similar, I could imagine it getting picked up, but it's worrying to think that people might be scanning the model kits section for things like this!

As someone who sells regularly on Ebay - not as a dealer, but as a useful way of getting rid of unwanted/duplicate items (from model kits and parts, to other collectables such as coins/banknotes) this is very disturbing. I don't want to have to mess around with cryptic disclaimers or Photoshopping images every time I sell a German WW2 aircraft model (not that I've sold that many, but still...)

I have sold quite a few unwanted unbuilt kits (mostly duplicate 1/72 planes) on Ebay lately, as well as some lots of old unwanted decals, which have included some German ones. Most older (mid-70s and earlier) kits of German WW2 planes include swastikas in the decals, and virtually modern aftermarket sheets do as well. A lot of German military vehicle decals also have SS markings.

The silliness of censoring markings on kits has been gone over many times in countless books and magazines, but Ebay removing model auctions because of their markings is too ridiculous for words.

I can only think that the person who reported the auction had no knowledge of model kits or historic aircraft at all.
There must be hundreds of German WW2 planes up for auction on the various Ebay sites at any one moment, and I'd bet a good proportion of these have swastikas in the markings.

Incidentally I don't hate Ebay or call it Evilbay, despite their excessive listing and Paypal fees and the site's reputation for scams, fraud etc - as someone living in the UK where model kits, and models/toys in general, are significantly more expensive and less plentiful than North America, I've found Ebay absolutely invaluable for finding items which aren't usually available otherwise in this country, and for bargains in general (for example. 95% of my Warhammer 40K collection was bought on Ebay, and I would never have got into this area of modelling if it had not been for this site, due to Games Workshop's insanely high prices)

It's understandable that the swastika can cause offense to so many people around the world.......but I also firmly believe that we are all forced to take political correctness to ridiculous lengths.......
It's also true that a symbol just like the swastika has been a symbol of good luck for Native Americans for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Well, it doesn't really matter since EvilBay is a private company and is just as free, under the same constitution, to make up whatever BS rules it wants to.

The people who run EvilBay have the freedom to do whatever they want with their website, just like you have the freedom to avoid using that website if you don't like it.

You can always start your own website, for model kits and accessories. There are other online auction sites, besides eBay, that have been successful.

Please don't get offended, but by reading this and many other similar posts I only get a feeling that America is no longer a free country. Freedom of speech, privacy rights and other great civilisation accomplishments are only "dead letter on the paper" after 11.Sept. From my European point of view, democracy no longer lives in USA.

It's always amazed and disturbed me that anyone can consider real history to be "offensive".

I think this fear of swastikas is quite similar to denying that the holocaust ever happened. They deny it because they mistakenly believe that the human race is not capable of such atrocities, and so they try (and fail) to find a way, any way, to invalidate it, regardless of the evidence against them.

Or they ignore it. It's the "I can't see you so don't pretend you're there" mentality.

...Just because a few knuckleheads twist something that's been around for centuries into something evil, that's what people remember it as. A couple examples:

- The Maltese Cross (design is for the Iron Cross of WWI and WWII Germany...but also incorporated in the Squadron design of HMLA-169 and still used on Luftwaffe aircraft in Germany).

- Finnish Air Force used light blue version of swastika on their aircraft.

history is doomed to repeat itself, unless people are educated. I can understand Europe's apprehention to the Swastika, however i do think it's a bit overkill. Wasn't it a Tibetan good luck symbol? Symbols are so subjective. If I became evil, I could use a freaking smiley face as my symbol.

The swastika symbol has been around much longer than the third reich, and it is really stupid that people fail to recognize that over and over.

The banned display of this symbol in Germany is absolutely stupidity. What happened, happened. Its evils and effects are only lessened by pretending that it didn't.

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk How about something with the buddhist symbol on it? The swastika is the same sybol reversed and tilted 45 degrees. Looking at maps and temples around my neighborhood, I see that symbol often. It often appears on some martial arts wear. I wonder if that would be a problem?

In germany (and some other countries) al swastika's are a problem, tillted or reversed, makes no difference. Most people don't know that it's an old symbol with many meanings.

I think the latvian AF also used a red swastika in the 1920's/30's.

How about something with the buddhist symbol on it? The swastika is the same sybol reversed and tilted 45 degrees. Looking at maps and temples around my neighborhood, I see that symbol often. It often appears on some martial arts wear. I wonder if that would be a problem?

thinks from finland have the same broken cross but it is in blue
would they say no to that too even if it has nothing to do with germany or nazis

I agree that double standards stinkThere are any number of symbols which I won't mention that would be banned if I had my way, but I will not say what they are. Freedom of speech dictates that we should be able to use any symbol we choose in our hobby or our views. However, it has become overly fashionable to be easily offended by those of weak mental stature. It gives them an unrealistic sense of power when they can force some form of repression upon others. Besides, whatever dot com is totally useless to me.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ridleusmc It's amazing how 6 perpendicular lines can cause such a ruckis.

It's the same thing with the Confederate battle flag. You can't fly the 'Stars and Bars' without being a rascist, but if you stop at any Welcome point when you come into Texas, you'll find a different style of Confederate flag flying "officially".
People who are ashamed of their heritage should stay out of polotics.

It's amazing how 6 perpendicular lines can cause such a ruckis.

just wondering, why is a non-german mein kampf ok whiel a german version isn't?

if it's a box, make it at an angle that clearly lets you see the plane but not the tail area, just move the camera to the right. if tis' a pre built plane, same.

erhemm, would be talking about evilbay? too bad. i agree, don't show a pic, and make them email you if they are interested.

Agree that's a whole other fourm and not for here(thier currents problems), went there for two years before my world tour way back when, but my sister is a CSU grad so at times I rout for them too.
Good luck on your newest try

grandadjohn-

BUFFS?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!? They are giving the state of Colorado such a black eye! But that is a whole other forum

kaleu-
I tried that this time around and so far so good. Acutally, I took a picture that was a real close-up of the front of the plane, not showing any markigs. The rest are available through a link not associated with that website.

How about relisting it without a photo? Put something like this in your description that if the buyer wants a picture to request one by e-mail. HTH

Since it's a US company I agree with you. Quess they're just trying to be PC.
By the way "Go Buff's"

grandadjohn-
xyz.com is a US website (I changed the name for the purposes of this forum but I imagine you could guess who). I even specified in my orgional bid that I would only ship with in the United States. It isnt the law against naziizm that I am upset with, it is the fact that they allow some memorabillia while others are prohibited. Especially, something as harmless as a plastic model! Oh well I guess.

XYZ.com most likely has this policy in order to comply with the laws it must operate under. You need to say what country they are based in. You must remember that our laws on freedom of speech do not apply in other countries.

hannaman-
that is the first thing I thought of too

Rick-
They told me a nazi symbols could be shown on thier site when it is on book covers, coins etc. Is there another nazi symbol? I thought the swasticka was it.

ajlafleche-
they wont allow photo editing or cropping. They specifcally said no in my email

here is part of the email:

In accordance with our Offensive Materials policy, XYZ.com does not
permit Nazi items to be sold on our site. This means that items that
bear any markings of the Nazi party are prohibited on XYZ.com. This
applies even if the offending symbols have been cropped, edited or
otherwise covered or altered in the image or description of the item.
Prohibited items also include those that are advertised with Nazi
terms, including but not limited to: Aryan nation, Hitler, Hitler
Youth, HJ, NSDAP, NSKK, Nazi, Neo-Nazi, RZM, SS, or Third Reich.
Sellers may not use techniques to circumvent our policy, such as
substituting XX or other double letters to signify SS items.

Exceptions to this rule are as follows:

- Stamps and coins are allowed even if they contain offensive symbols.
- Non-propaganda books and movies about WWII or Nazi Germany, even if
the Nazi symbol appears on or in the item
- Mein Kampf may be sold provided that it is not a German language
edition of the book. Also sellers must state in their listing that
they will not ship this item outside the United States.


Just seems 2-faced if you ask me.

Use your photo editing software to fuzz out the swastika and descride the plane as historically accurate. Relist.

Display of the Swastika in Germany is illegal & many International web sites have been forced to comply or face criminal litigation.

Regards, Rick